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Maybe it's just me, but at least in theory, "within the context of these movies, this is what the TV show is" doesn't sound bad at all? It seems very ignorable from the point of view of the TV show being a good work on its own, and I'll take this handling over AO being a direct sequel that seemed to hate how the show ended. It's not like you need to approach everything as a single canon just because it's playing with past works. Then again, while my opinion on Good Night, Sleep Tight, Young Lovers has moved towards "yeah, it's not a good movie" since I saw it, I did like how that movie approached its own relationship to the original series, and this isn't miles away from that. This spoiler sounds like Hi-Evolution could end up interesting, if they're willing to actually take things in a good optimistic direction as the series progresses rather than murk around in misery town until the last five minutes.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:41
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RangerKarl posted:times like this i'm glad kawamori's canon policy for macross is that everything we watch is also an in-universe fiction, so there's no hard canon per se. I've never understood the point of this. None of it is real, why does it matter if it's double super extra not real?
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Nov 11, 2018 12:19
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Onmi posted:Well, Bones has hosed Eureka 7 completely I'm not sure why you posted a completely blank post, but I sure am glad Eureka Seven never got anything beyond the first series and its appearance in Super Robot Wars Z.
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Nov 11, 2018 14:52
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Droyer posted:I've never understood the point of this. None of it is real, why does it matter if it's double super extra not real? Like look what happened with the old Star Wars EU, and how there are people that are genuinely upset that their favorite book by whatever author from 1994 or whenever "doesn't matter" now that there's a new EU in place. Presumably, a policy like Kawamori's not only being open but being in place for a good long while can allow people to sidestep this kind of "problem" to begin with and just enjoy whatever show or movie that they want to.
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Nov 11, 2018 17:01
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I mostly am just confused at the increasing need to make Eureka 7's darker and more depressing. It feels like it's the exact last thing anyone who liked E7 wanted from it and yet.
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Nov 11, 2018 17:10
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im watching e7 now and there's enough dark poo poo that im not sure why you'd want to double down on it
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Nov 12, 2018 00:09
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To quote what Alan Moore had already pointed out back in the day: "This is an imaginary story...aren't they all?". Canon status should not matter when it comes to your own appreciation of a work of fiction. If anything, I think Japanese media generally doesn't tend to place a lot of emphasis on whether something happens to be strictly canonical or not. That's been more of a concern for the non-Japanese fans. With that in mind, I don't really care about whatever needlessly convoluted and dark layer the staff is adding to their new Eureka 7 movies. I do think that in the rush to avoid repeating themselves they've been taking the wrong kind of risks and perhaps they're also trying to one-up Hideaki Anno's meta-commentary in the process. But, in the end, the movies are just another alternate universe in practice. Good or bad, it doesn't detract from the value of the original Eureka 7 story. Which could get dark and dramatic at times, yes, but was ultimately a romance with a happy ending and cool mecha surfing.
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Nov 12, 2018 00:10
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Lots of people who consume media are very invested in there being a one true official story for a given setting or cast of characters. It sort of serves as a grounding point for further exploration of a setting. Since this is the mecha thread, using Gundam as an example: Char's Counterattack works as a standalone product with no outside knowledge, but is greatly enhanced as an experience if you've seen Mobile Suit Gundam and Zeta Gundam to provide context and character background for Amuro, Char, and the setting itself. That enhancement could not exist if there wasn't an explicit canon that CCA stuck to and the experience would be lessened if they just made poo poo up about the characters instead. The Eureka Seven spinoff series and movies baffle the poo poo out of me. What value is there in taking the cast of Eureka Seven and telling completely different stories where the characters act and are motivated so differently from the original material that they might as well be completely separate people? Why not just tell a new story with a completely different cast, besides the obvious "we're trying to cash in on an existing franchise name and somewhat popular character designs that we already made"?
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Nov 12, 2018 01:29
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Kanos posted:Why not just tell a new story with a completely different cast, besides the obvious "we're trying to cash in on an existing franchise name and somewhat popular character designs that we already made"? That's what they should have done. Even AO would have probably worked better if the new cast had absolutely no connections to anyone from the original show...and, to be sure, if they had also simplified the messy story into something more straightforward. Admittedly, most people would have been happy with a standard "Eureka and Renton get the cast back together for one more adventure" approach to the sequel, but I guess the staff wouldn't have felt satisfied with that. I wonder how they judged the reactions to Eureka Seven AO, because something tells me they may have learned the wrong lessons from it.
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Nov 12, 2018 01:53
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Kanos posted:Lots of people who consume media are very invested in there being a one true official story for a given setting or cast of characters. It sort of serves as a grounding point for further exploration of a setting. Since this is the mecha thread, using Gundam as an example: Char's Counterattack works as a standalone product with no outside knowledge, but is greatly enhanced as an experience if you've seen Mobile Suit Gundam and Zeta Gundam to provide context and character background for Amuro, Char, and the setting itself. That enhancement could not exist if there wasn't an explicit canon that CCA stuck to and the experience would be lessened if they just made poo poo up about the characters instead. ...of course, Zeta Gundam and Char's Counterattack, and indeed drat near the entire Gundam franchise, are themselves predicated upon a retcon of Mobile Suit Gundam's ending. The final scene of that series has all the surviving crew of the White Base developing new type capabilities, with the implication that this is happening throughout the battlefield, if not all mankind. It fulfills Lalah's dying observation/prophecy/wish that "[people are] becoming like us." Not becoming psychic, per se, but becoming capable of understanding each other and existing besides one another without war. The end of Mobile Suit Gundam is as psychedelic an ending as Tomino has produced. It's basically a declaration of an end to all war, forevermore, a dawning of a "new age" populated by a "new type" of human. Needless to say, Zeta Gundam, Char's Counterattack, and everything following has certainly ignored this canon. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Nov 12, 2018 |
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Nov 12, 2018 01:57
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There's also the people that argue CCA is "Char's Character Assassination" and doesn't naturally follow from his arc in Zeta Gundam at all, and that the movie works best as a sequel to 0079 with Zeta being ignored entirely. I don't agree with those people but if we're talking about viewer response theory its a common enough POV to bring up. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Nov 12, 2018 |
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Nov 12, 2018 02:09
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Schwarzwald posted:The end of Mobile Suit Gundam is as psychedelic an ending as Tomino has produced. It's basically a declaration of an end to all war, forevermore, a dawning of a "new age" populated by a "new type" of human. Not surprising, since that ending leaves relatively little room for a standard sequel. As a matter of fact, even Tomino himself didn't initially want to make any sequels to the original Gundam. It all seems so far away from us now, but some folks viewed that decision as a turning point for the industry and particularly for the alleged historical "decline" of mecha anime: Meanwhile, director Yoshiyuki Tomino's "Kidô Senshi Z Gundam" (Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam) debuted in April of 1985 to great controversy, as he had previously announced that he would never make a sequel to the original Gundam TV series and films. (...) If there had been more, and more talented, creators with the drive to create original content, there wouldn't have been any need to rely on sequels and brand value from the past. This is why the Gundam sequel represents the end of an era. Putting aside the critical response, or the merits of continuing the series, there is no question that this Gundam sequel represents a boundary between eras. Taken from the "Japanese Animation Guide: The History of Robot Anime" available here. That doesn't mean it was necessarily a mistake to make sequels, yet it's an issue we're still seeing today.
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Nov 12, 2018 02:55
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Erg posted:im watching e7 now and there's enough dark poo poo that im not sure why you'd want to double down on it  eureka seven original TV run is perfect IDK why they keep trying to ruin it
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Nov 12, 2018 03:01
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bacon flaps posted:
They're not ruining it, it's still right here. They're just making new crap that ain't good.
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Nov 12, 2018 03:10
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It's like they saw the sheer hatred that AO got and went "well clearly we didn't make it dark enough!"
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Nov 12, 2018 03:14
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I fell behind for a while but I'm continuing on with Votoms. I quite liked the first two arcs though they dragged slightly. The recap episodes contributed a bit to this. That being said I'm very much enjoying the show so far. I have high hopes for this third arc- I've seen the first episode with Chirico and Fyana on the mysterious ship and it's been my favorite one of the entire anime yet. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Nov 24, 2018 |
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Nov 24, 2018 08:21
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The second arc kinda drags yeah (too much time wasted obeying the officer who deserves to get fragged and Fyana being indecisive) but I felt like the first arc needed that extra meat so we can get comfortable with the characters and mechanics. Also Woodo is such a loving cool setpiece I didn't mind spending lots of time in there. The third and fourth arcs though, oh man. Now we're cooking with gas. So refreshing when a show picks up speed instead of fizzling out.
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Nov 24, 2018 16:02
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My biggest beef with the final arc is that they overcommitted on the fakeout. In particular, Chirico blowing up that ship felt less like he was putting on a show for Wiseman and more like he was legit trying to murder his friends. If they'd had an easier escape with a few hints that he was helping them along, it would have made the whole thing feel a lot less weird.
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Nov 24, 2018 17:12
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Marx Headroom posted:The second arc kinda drags yeah (too much time wasted obeying the officer who deserves to get fragged and Fyana being indecisive) but I felt like the first arc needed that extra meat so we can get comfortable with the characters and mechanics. Also Woodo is such a loving cool setpiece I didn't mind spending lots of time in there. That's a good point about the first arc- it really does have a lot of heavy lifting to do. And yeah Woodo is cool. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 24, 2018 |
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Nov 24, 2018 17:59
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I agree that I think the first arc needed the meat it has just because you need to establish who and what Chirico is, and also why someone like him would begin to care about the side cast and why they would begin to care about him. The humanity he develops from his newfound relationship with his dorky friends is basically the foundation for everything he does in the future. Space Vietnam went a little long, mostly because they spend a lot of time on characters who don't feel as important or as foundational to Chirico.
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Nov 24, 2018 18:08
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Raxivace posted:I wouldn't have minded a little bit of both of these being sacrificed to better flesh out the whole "Potaria vs. Kanjelman" narrative a little more though. Agreed, those two had an interesting relationship and their encounter felt kinda shoehorned in. Doesn't really help that Potaria's personality was overshadowed by the other guys on that team. Too many interesting threads pulling that arc in different directions. Which is crazy because the second arc has some of the most memorable scenery and moments, like when Fyana fires a shot at Ypsilon and he just glares at her while covered in oil and blood:  You can see the transition from confusion to sadness to the exact moment he starts to hate her and his personality starts breaking down. So good
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Nov 24, 2018 18:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50-hb1UCvIc I can't believe these still tour. I saw them at least 20 years ago. I can blame this for every bit of my mecha interest. Ranzear fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Nov 24, 2018 |
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Nov 24, 2018 21:29
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I started Gunbuster today because I got a few hits from life and I needed something to pick me up (also I've had the -busters in my waiting list for ages). I know people said Gunbuster was the slow, somewhat lame prequel to the much better Diebuster but I've watched the first two episodes and I'm quite enjoying it! The art is nice, the robots are kind of boring but the characters are entertaining. I have very few complaints and I hope it stays this good for the next four. I've seen there are a few Gunbuster things that aren't the main series or Diebuster (Gunbuster! Science Course and Gunbuster Renewal EX). Are these worth watching? When should I watch them, if so?
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Nov 28, 2018 02:40
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Blaze Dragon posted:I know people said Gunbuster was the slow, somewhat lame prequel to the much better Diebuster but I've watched the first two episodes and I'm quite enjoying it! Anyone who has ever said this is crazy and should be ignored.
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Nov 28, 2018 02:52
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Ethiser posted:Anyone who has ever said this is crazy and should be ignored. Crazy and right. But even I'd say that the last couple episodes of Gunbuster are good enough that I'd be glad I watched the show even without Diebuster. For me, they shifted it from something of historical interest to something that was actually interesting on its own merits. (As for slow, only in comparison to Diebuster. Diebuster is just all out from the start, and it's great.)
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Nov 28, 2018 02:56
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I thought Diebuster was just as slow as Gunbuster. Episodes 2 and 3 felt like they were just spinning their wheels to kill time before starting the actual plot.
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Nov 28, 2018 03:03
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Diebuster is gorgeous and has a really great set up but then forgets what the main conflict is for the last two episodes.
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Nov 28, 2018 03:21
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Blaze Dragon posted:I've seen there are a few Gunbuster things that aren't the main series or Diebuster (Gunbuster! Science Course and Gunbuster Renewal EX). Are these worth watching? When should I watch them, if so? It is always good to see more people discovering the greatness of Gunbuster, including the early episodes. The science lessons are nice bonus extras. You can watch them either after every episode or so, for best results, or all at the end if you prefer. wielder fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Nov 28, 2018 |
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Nov 28, 2018 03:23
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One interesting parallel between Gunbuster and Diebuster Noriko and Nono both go from screwup to army destroyer at the end of episode 4, where a more conventional structure would go all the way to episode 6 building that up. For Diebuster, it's partially for the callback and partially since Lal'c is the real main protagonist, but for Gunbuster, it's because they were initially only planning four episodes. In other words, Gunbuster finished and then they kept going, which forced it to shift from the Aim for the Ace plus mecha stuff to a focus on the war and special relativity stuff that had been in the background. So, essentially, Diebuster is intentionally replicating something the original OVA series was forced into by circumstances.
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Nov 28, 2018 03:40
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Gunbuster is incredible, please enjoy the ride. Science lessons can be after each episode if you want.
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Nov 28, 2018 04:32
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Finished the third arc of VOTOMS. It was the best yet IMHO. Everything from the hell ship with PTSD: The Television Channel, to "gently caress YOU YOU loving RED SHOULDER", to the final confrontation with Ypsilon was just great. I'm really curious to see if Chiricho really is a Perfect Soldier or not. I've kind of suspected it but for some reason I'm not sure I believe it.
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Nov 28, 2018 07:32
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Also it looks like that HD version of Ideon is up for preorder on Rightstuf now.
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Nov 28, 2018 07:33
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Okay, I finished both Busters as well as the Gunbuster extra stuff. Man, that was great. I enjoyed both series, Diebuster had stronger mecha stuff and Lal'C is an awesome onee-sama but I feel I enjoyed characterization in general more in Gunbuster, ignoring the really sudden love stuff that didn't particularly fit and seemed to be there only for forced suffering (though it does lead to Noriko's excellent growth). I have little more to say, honestly, since I don't think I can properly explain anyways, so I'll just summarize by saying that I have no idea why I waited this long and both are really good series. I feel Gunbuster stands out by its own merits, it doesn't need Diebuster nor should it be considered something you watch only for historical merit, while Diebuster is just craziness all around and epically so. Also, I nearly cried in the end, what an amazing way to bridge both shows.
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Nov 30, 2018 00:01
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I have reached the point where the remaining Might Gaine episodes only have hk subs. Pray for me.
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Nov 30, 2018 03:54
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Blaze Dragon posted:Okay, I finished both Busters as well as the Gunbuster extra stuff. Man, that was great. I enjoyed both series, Diebuster had stronger mecha stuff and Lal'C is an awesome onee-sama but I feel I enjoyed characterization in general more in Gunbuster, ignoring the really sudden love stuff that didn't particularly fit and seemed to be there only for forced suffering (though it does lead to Noriko's excellent growth). I'm curious what you thought about the last two episodes of Gunbuster versus the first four, if you don't mind me asking. I've seen people who prefer the first four and the Noriko character growth, and people who prefer the final two and their focus on the big sci-fi concepts. There's a definite shift, and while I have my opinion, I'm always interested in other people's arguments.
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Nov 30, 2018 05:35
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chiasaur11 posted:I'm curious what you thought about the last two episodes of Gunbuster versus the first four, if you don't mind me asking. I've seen people who prefer the first four and the Noriko character growth, and people who prefer the final two and their focus on the big sci-fi concepts. Hmm...it's hard to say, with all honesty, since I enjoyed both parts. There's no doubt that the series gigantically shifts gears in the middle, which makes sense after learning that the last two episodes weren't planned. I really liked the focus on character development in the first four episodes, seeing Noriko go from underconfident to hot-blooded badass, but at the same time the sheer hot-blooded action in the last two, plus letting onee-sama have some of that growth too was enjoyable as well, and you can be drat sure I was shouting alongside the SUPER INAZUMA KIIIIICCCCCCKKKK. The hard sci-fi was also neat, but at the same time made me feel kind of like an idiot because I can't even picture the idea of time going differently for different people. That's my problem though, and it didn't affect my enjoyment of the series. That said, overall, I feel I enjoyed the more character-driven first four episodes more. Not significantly more, since the other two were also extremely strong and memorable, but the first few felt like something very different from the mecha genre, in a good way, probably because by that point it was more of a sports anime with mecha (and a lack of sports) until episode 4 properly brings in the kaiju (after episode 3 uses them to great effect without ever showing them).
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Nov 30, 2018 14:46
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Droyer posted:I have reached the point where the remaining Might Gaine episodes only have hk subs. Pray for me. Belated, but my sincere condolences. On a similar topic I'm getting annoyed at the lack of giant robot shows where the giant robots have any personality. It's like there's Transformers, J-Decker, Iron Leaguer, and that's it. We're apparently not allowed to have giant robot characters, only giant robot suits, and it sucks.
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Dec 17, 2018 15:27
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I don’t personally like it but there’s that Gridman show that’s on right now. Does stuff like FMP or Gargantia count too?
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Dec 17, 2018 15:52
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Raxivace posted:I don’t personally like it but there’s that Gridman show that’s on right now. Woah, I didn't expect the Gridman show to actually have Gridman as a character. I'll check it out! I haven't seen FMP, and Gargantia is kind of an edge case because of the 5-6 eps I watched, the robot was just... there. Very minor character. e: It's kind of like Exkaiser (which I love) - yes, technically Exkaiser has a personality, but it's so generic and doesn't go anywhere that it's like, why did they bother.
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Dec 17, 2018 16:00
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StrixNebulosa posted:Woah, I didn't expect the Gridman show to actually have Gridman as a character. I'll check it out! Chamber does go somewhere in Gargantia. Not only that, but the main villain is the rogue mecha that once belonged to the hero's commanding officer.
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Dec 17, 2018 16:17
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