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It’s true, if people stopped giving minorities money and did the real work we’d have fixed these problems by now.
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Nov 13, 2018 20:42
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| # ? May 23, 2024 19:26 |
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"if you're not willing to turn every single hobby you enjoy into a full time weapon to destroy capitalism then why even bother trying to address problems in it" Like yes, capitalism delenda est and all, but not everyone can or wants to channel Antifa Gritty every second of their lives.
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Nov 13, 2018 20:45
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The problems with the RPG industry can't be fixed within the industry, they are universal to capitalism and require a systemic political change across the entire globe. There, we're done. Hope that's not too much baggage for y'all unfortunately this is the tg industry thread and not c-spam. come on home jockstrap
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Nov 13, 2018 20:48
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I bought Mikan's game and she still got harassed offline and it really pissed me off. The Edrigohr guy never did anything else even after a successful Kickstarter and the game got forgotten rather than being remembered as something really good. It loving sucked and there's nothing I could do about it, and if you think giving money to the next Mikan or buying a handful of products in an industry that is increasingly monpolized is enough rather than confronting the factors that make these pieces of poo poo so powerful in these spaces (OSR is almost all gatekeeping old white guys with industry connections) then I don't know what to say. I knew I was going to get bad-faith bullshit but honestly this inability to learn anything or to categorize real solutions as "beyond the scope of the discussions" has genuinely frustrated me. I simply don't want to do this and I don't want to eat a random probation from the mods, so I gotta stop.Daeren posted:"if you're not willing to turn every single hobby you enjoy into a full time weapon to destroy capitalism then why even bother trying to address problems in it" I am not saying this, I even said "most people cannot do this" and "you should boost these people" but I'm also going to be honest in my take: the systemic problems will continue until the system is reformed. I use that as fuel, your mileage may vary. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Nov 13, 2018 |
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Nov 13, 2018 20:50
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Speaking of leftist organizing for a better world and elfgames, how are people's games of Spire going? Also, do we think that a Sigmata-but-not-wildly-centrist RPG, where the point is to both teach organizing methods and have a fun elfgame, could work? I think it could be a cool object, but I dunno how well turning a leftist organizer's handbook into an elfgame can really work. Especially since it's not unlikely to create more smug 'here's how you do X, person with actual experience doing X' players than actual organizers.
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Nov 13, 2018 20:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I bought Mikan's game and she still got harassed offline and it really pissed me off. The Edrigohr guy never did anything else even after a successful Kickstarter and the game got forgotten rather than being remembered as something really good. It loving sucked and there's nothing I could do about it, and if you think giving money to the next Mikan or buying a handful of products in an industry that is increasingly monpolized is enough rather than confronting the factors that make these pieces of poo poo so powerful in these spaces (OSR is almost all gatekeeping old white guys with industry connections) then I don't know what to say. I knew I was going to get bad-faith bullshit but honestly this inability to learn anything or to categorize real solutions as "beyond the scope of the discussions" has genuinely frustrated me. I simply don't want to do this and I don't want to eat a random probation from the mods, so I gotta stop. I mean, Mikan got money, the Edrigohr guy got money. Both of those are good outcomes. Not every action has to instantly solve capitalism, and you can do multiple things at once. Accusing people of bad faith because they're calling you out on bullshit you're spewing about how we should devote all time to solving capitalism, gently caress those marginalized folks who make things for their hobby, is basically just dumb. Also: by taking the time to yell at people about not solving all systemic problems you are saying what they are doing is wrong because they are not doing the thing you say they should be doing. You are implicitly saying 'do not signal boost, because that doesn't solve the systemic problem and therefore is bad.'
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Nov 13, 2018 20:54
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Joe Slowboat posted:Speaking of leftist organizing for a better world and elfgames, how are people's games of Spire going? i dunno about rpgs designed for that purpose, but i'm working on a shadow of the demon lord campaign where the player characters are rebels against a capitalist oligarchy where the robber barons have been twisted into reflections of the depravity they inflict on the workers. not really meant to teach anyone anything, just thinking it would be fun to direct the typical adventuring party against a representation of our actual enemies
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Nov 13, 2018 20:56
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The problem is that no one was suggesting stopping at the actions presented. The discussion is about starting points, the things that can be done immediately by everyone, and as a foundation for further action. I get your frustration because there are plenty of people in leftist spaces who do argue that those things are the end-all-be-all solutions and even then routinely don't do the set-up work to do those things safely. But it's unfair to default to that stance here, with the people involved, and while I do think you're speaking out of legitimate frustration, it's misplaced here and is hard to distinguish from the kind of bad faith what-about-ism that gets brought into these discussions.
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Nov 13, 2018 20:57
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Mors Rattus posted:I mean, Mikan got money, the Edrigohr guy got money. Both of those are good outcomes. Not every action has to instantly solve capitalism, and you can do multiple things at once. Accusing people of bad faith because they're calling you out on bullshit you're spewing about how we should devote all time to solving capitalism, gently caress those marginalized folks who make things for their hobby, is basically just dumb. Can you please learn how to read? Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Now I know it's beyond most people to do this so I'm not haranguing anyone who can't. I'm not saying those things are bad to do - they are good. They are also stopgaps that don't fix the actual problems. Comrade Gorbash posted:The problem is that no one was suggesting stopping at the actions presented. The discussion is about starting points, the things that can be done immediately by everyone, and as a foundation for further action. I get your frustration because there are plenty of people in leftist spaces who do argue that those things are the end-all-be-all solutions and even then routinely don't do the set-up work to do those things safely. You are absolutely right. Absolutely. I'm just take my punches and depart.
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Nov 13, 2018 20:58
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Can you please learn how to read? Fun fact: you're poo poo at context and you don't magically become not poo poo at it by putting a Band-Aid on the end.
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Nov 13, 2018 20:59
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The Edrigohr guy never did anything else even after a successful Kickstarter and the game got forgotten rather than being remembered as something really good. As for the game, it was unfortunately way, way heavier than I was looking for, and there wasn't nearly as much setting detail as I wanted. I wish he'd come back and give it another go, though. Dude was awesome.
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Nov 13, 2018 21:06
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Joe Slowboat posted:Speaking of leftist organizing for a better world and elfgames, how are people's games of Spire going? It's entirely possible to create a game that creates a framework and/or roadmap to societal improvement. That said, it's not something to be undertaken lightly and would require actual design work going into it. I'm definitely ruminating on an idea or a dozen based around that theme.
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Nov 13, 2018 21:10
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Meinberg posted:It's entirely possible to create a game that creates a framework and/or roadmap to societal improvement. That said, it's not something to be undertaken lightly and would require actual design work going into it. I'm definitely ruminating on an idea or a dozen based around that theme. My skepticism hinges on whether the mechanisms necessary to making a game functional, i.e. the game part of the game, are sort of necessarily going to distort or reify the extremely complex and contingent sphere of organizing. Which, y'know, doesn't matter so much in elfgames that aren't meant to be educational, but becomes pretty fraught if we're expecting players to learn how to organize from them. On the other hand maybe that's just a failure of my imagination and limited organizing experience.
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Nov 13, 2018 21:43
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Meinberg posted:It's entirely possible to create a game that creates a framework and/or roadmap to societal improvement. Man, forget about making a game about it, I wish I knew how to do that in real life. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Nov 13, 2018 |
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Nov 13, 2018 21:46
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megaman's jockstrap posted:I bought Mikan's game and she still got harassed offline and it really pissed me off. The Edrigohr guy never did anything else even after a successful Kickstarter and the game got forgotten rather than being remembered as something really good. It loving sucked and there's nothing I could do about it, and if you think giving money to the next Mikan or buying a handful of products in an industry that is increasingly monpolized is enough rather than confronting the factors that make these pieces of poo poo so powerful in these spaces (OSR is almost all gatekeeping old white guys with industry connections) then I don't know what to say. I knew I was going to get bad-faith bullshit but honestly this inability to learn anything or to categorize real solutions as "beyond the scope of the discussions" has genuinely frustrated me. I simply don't want to do this and I don't want to eat a random probation from the mods, so I gotta stop. Also not to put too fine a point on it but okay you supported two kickstarters from marginalized voices. Then...because those didn't fix things immediately you...what, you stopped? Great praxis. Amazing followthrough. You dipshit. Also "leveraging your privilege" includes "telling off the shits and demonstrating that they don't have a monopoly on the industry" while also working to ensure that's true.
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Nov 13, 2018 22:01
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Joe Slowboat posted:My skepticism hinges on whether the mechanisms necessary to making a game functional, i.e. the game part of the game, are sort of necessarily going to distort or reify the extremely complex and contingent sphere of organizing. Which, y'know, doesn't matter so much in elfgames that aren't meant to be educational, but becomes pretty fraught if we're expecting players to learn how to organize from them. Nah, the peril of gamification interfering with the pedagogical impact of a theoretical educational game is legitimately a major concern when it comes to designing things of that nature. The game Spent, for example, ended up sometimes reducing empathy for the groups it wanted to represent in players. After all, you wouldn’t be so poor if you played better.
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Nov 13, 2018 22:03
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Like also to expand: If ehdrigor and mikan were the only two kickstarters in the industry and they'd failed and nothing else had come of them, then that'd be one thing, but don't kid yourself--things like monsterhearts or orun or flying circus are absolutely around because there's been demonstrated to be a market for these marginalized creators. They're proof of concept. They're paving the way for future creations by people who otherwise might be scared away, turned away, or driven away by the OSR ridden stuff, but instead see that those fuckers aren't the entire community. Ignoring that is a disservice to the work that Mikan and the ehdrigor folks did, that Avery Alder continues to do, or open sketchbook, or these other progressive, marginalized creators are doing in opening the way for the future. Don't do that. It's super lovely.
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Nov 13, 2018 22:08
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Even though I don't play those style of games being a grog rear end in a top hat to the core, I will continue to support those developers because God knows the deck is stacked against them. On a lighter note. Bundle of Holding is selling Early (1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition) Champions. I bought it because I am a huge grog who loves that system. I'm looking through Enemies II and what do I find? Check out the Markered price...  And the hand-colored character pictures.   They actually bought a used copy from some game store's clearance/used shelf, scanned it, and put it on DriveThru Rpg. I really kind of love that.
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Nov 13, 2018 23:36
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e: didn't notice new page
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Nov 13, 2018 23:46
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Even though I don't play those style of games being a grog rear end in a top hat to the core, I will continue to support those developers because God knows the deck is stacked against them. Man, I think I would have coloured Radium green.
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Nov 13, 2018 23:51
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HopperUK posted:Man, I think I would have coloured Radium green. I can state with almost complete certainty he's supposed to be a Dr Manhattan reference.
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Nov 13, 2018 23:52
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He's not. Enemies II came out years before Watchmen the comic was ever created.
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Nov 14, 2018 00:10
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This is why I said almost. Second answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation
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Nov 14, 2018 00:22
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Even though I don't play those style of games being a grog rear end in a top hat to the core, I will continue to support those developers because God knows the deck is stacked against them. holy poo poo
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Nov 14, 2018 01:35
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Joe Slowboat posted:Speaking of leftist organizing for a better world and elfgames, how are people's games of Spire going? I think that something like this is going to have to compromise hard either on the gameplay side or on the "realism" side. Something that's eminently playable is necessarily going to have to present organization and agitation as far more successful (and pleasant, and possible) than it tends to be IRL, while something that presents a picture of organizing work "as-is" is going to have to grapple with things like the availability of people to do it, the resistance one is going to encounter when trying to do so, and the long, bumpy road of trying to score marginal victories. I think it's reasonable to play a game whose plotting poses questions of materialist politics, and I think it's also reasonable to play a game about revolution or rebellion that isn't as wildly uninformed as Sigmata is, but going the step further and trying to turn it into a guidebook on how to be a community organizer in real-life will run into the pitfall of why fantasy is a popular genre in the first place: because it gives us a hell of a lot more agency than we otherwise would.
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Nov 14, 2018 03:20
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This is a hosed up enough timeline that i had an image of nerds somehow getting COINTELPRO'd for an elfgame book.
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Nov 14, 2018 03:36
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Ronwayne posted:This is a hosed up enough timeline that i had an image of nerds somehow getting COINTELPRO'd for an elfgame book. seems like a reasonable enough line to draw from steve jackson games getting raided by the secret service in the 90s and the fbi keeping tabs on gary gygax
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Nov 14, 2018 03:45
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Ronwayne posted:This is a hosed up enough timeline that i had an image of nerds somehow getting COINTELPRO'd for an elfgame book.  e: fb
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Nov 14, 2018 03:47
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So, funny story, at least some members of the Polish resistance against the Soviets used LARP as a cover for their activities. Not only did their games teach group tactics and how to best coordinate their efforts, they could always just claim that they’re talking about elfgame nerd poo poo if someone ever questioned them about it.
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Nov 14, 2018 03:51
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I also wonder, if there any way an elfgame could incorporate anti fash/capitalist tropes while also acknowledging huge splits within leftism itself? Anarchists punks in a cyberpunk setting working with the commies, sweating as the lesson of the Spanish civil war is on their mind, etc? Or the Hoxhaist class getting a +2 to Def or whatever.
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Nov 14, 2018 04:19
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Ronwayne posted:I also wonder, if there any way an elfgame could incorporate anti fash/capitalist tropes while also acknowledging huge splits within leftism itself? Anarchists punks in a cyberpunk setting working with the commies, sweating as the lesson of the Spanish civil war is on their mind, etc? That would require people steeped in leftism to start designing games, which isn't impossible, but the people who make politically self-aware elfgames are at best "very liberal".
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Nov 14, 2018 04:23
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I think one of the best thing for the current zeitgeist might be some for of RPG primer for helping former centrists/liberals/rainbow capitalists who got their mind broken in 2016 to form a more coherent ideology beyond "poo poo's all hosed up and cannot stand." God knows I was one of them.
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Nov 14, 2018 04:26
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Ronwayne posted:I also wonder, if there any way an elfgame could incorporate anti fash/capitalist tropes while also acknowledging huge splits within leftism itself? Anarchists punks in a cyberpunk setting working with the commies, sweating as the lesson of the Spanish civil war is on their mind, etc? It’s definitely a lot easier to frame things in opposition to fascism than in support of leftism. Folks are pretty clear on what they dislike but are less clear on what the solution to those problems are. As far as actually portraying those ideological splits on the left, it’s entirely possible. I remember an analysis of Apocalypse World playbooks which suggested that each one presented a slightly different genre take on the larger post apocalypse genre. Similarly, you could have different playbooks represent different leftist ideologies, with the differences in those ideologies reflecting in the move choices and so forth, while fascism is presented as a larger, looming danger.
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Nov 14, 2018 04:30
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gradenko_2000 posted:That would require people steeped in leftism to start designing games, which isn't impossible, but the people who make politically self-aware elfgames are at best "very liberal". Being incompetent at game design didn't stop Varg Vikernes and the RaHoWa devs why should it stop leftists? Just do your own shoddily made jumble and send that bad boy to DTRPG.
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Nov 14, 2018 04:31
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i mean you can talk about your puny marxism-leninisms, outdated maoisms and resilient hoxhaisms but the only acceptable position will always be posadism
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Nov 14, 2018 04:33
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Plutonis posted:Being incompetent at game design didn't stop Varg Vikernes and the RaHoWa devs why should it stop leftists? Just do your own shoddily made jumble and send that bad boy to DTRPG. Listen, I’m writing as fast as I can.
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Nov 14, 2018 04:33
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Serf posted:i mean you can talk about your puny marxism-leninisms, outdated maoisms and resilient hoxhaisms but the only acceptable position will always be posadism Anarcho-syndicalism would like to have a word.
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Nov 14, 2018 04:34
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Plutonis posted:Being incompetent at game design didn't stop Varg Vikernes and the RaHoWa devs why should it stop leftists? Just do your own shoddily made jumble and send that bad boy to DTRPG. Yes, having a sense of shame will definitely slow down a creative content producer, and may actually be maladaptive in 2018.
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Nov 14, 2018 04:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:That would require people steeped in leftism to start designing games, which isn't impossible, but the people who make politically self-aware elfgames are at best "very liberal". Then I have good news for you comrade ! I'll report back after Thursday's event put on by the Democratic Socialists of America - San Francisco: 
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Nov 14, 2018 04:37
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| # ? May 23, 2024 19:26 |
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Speaking of capitalism... https://twitter.com/stacylwhitman/status/1062458409830809600
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Nov 14, 2018 04:41
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