Good and Easy to Win: The Trade War Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Good and Easy to Win: The Trade War Thread

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Party Plane Jones posted:

15https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1059440219152359424

Interesting fact, the angle of the pile in that image is the reason grain is a very dangerous cargo to transport by ship.

# ? Nov 6, 2018 05:49

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 02:02

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

BrandorKP posted:

Interesting fact, the angle of the pile in that image is the reason grain is a very dangerous cargo to transport by ship.

It's not an interesting fact when you don't actually explain it. :mad:

# ? Nov 6, 2018 15:45

AceOfFlames: Oct 9, 2012

MiddleOne posted:

It's not an interesting fact when you don't actually explain it.

If the ship tips over that angle (which is fairly low, around 20�), the grain will tumble to the side and potentially cause the entire ship to roll to the side and sink.

# ? Nov 6, 2018 15:53

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

AceOfFlames posted:

If the ship tips over that angle (which is fairly low, around 20°), the grain will tumble to the side and potentially cause the entire ship to roll to the side and sink.

And ships are always "tipping over" they roll from side side to a degree depending in thier stability condition and the sea condition.

The rolling motion of a vessel can cause grain to shift in a cargo hold. When it shifts it can cause the vessel to list or capsize. When vessels are loaded with grain the holds have to be loaded according to the grain rules in SOLAS and a stability calculating must show that if a grain shift occurred the maximum angle of list created would be less than 12 degrees.

Edit: it can also explode. Elevators blow up from time to time from dust explosions.

# ? Nov 6, 2018 16:24

OhFunny: Jun 26, 2013; EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/12/gm-shares-turn-negative-on-report-white-house-circulating-draft-on-auto-tariffs.html

quote:

President Donald Trump plans to meet with his trade team on Tuesday to discuss a draft report on European auto tariffs, according to Bloomberg News, citing three people familiar with the matter.

Trump's focus remains on crushing foreign automakers with heavy tariffs, according to an Axios report earlier on Monday. The president reportedly sees the threat of auto tariffs as a successful negotiating tactic. Trump used the auto tariffs threat when he negotiated with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau earlier this year.

"Trump says gleefully that the moment he started talking about maybe tariffs on cars, that [European Commission President Jean-Claude] Juncker got on the fastest plane known to mankind, comes straight over to Washington and starts offering deals," a senior European official told Axios.

General Motors shares turned negative after the report, falling as far as $35.45 in trading. The stock closed nearly unchanged at $35.69 a share. Tariffs would be adverse to the U.S. automaker if other countries decided to retaliate.

# ? Nov 14, 2018 00:17

qkkl: Jul 1, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

BrandorKP posted:

And ships are always "tipping over" they roll from side side to a degree depending in thier stability condition and the sea condition.

The rolling motion of a vessel can cause grain to shift in a cargo hold. When it shifts it can cause the vessel to list or capsize. When vessels are loaded with grain the holds have to be loaded according to the grain rules in SOLAS and a stability calculating must show that if a grain shift occurred the maximum angle of list created would be less than 12 degrees.

Edit: it can also explode. Elevators blow up from time to time from dust explosions.

Ehh, it's not that dangerous as long as you just treat the soy like oil or some other liquid. Once you do that you just install anti-slosh baffles to limit the soy shifting, or compartmentalize the ship.

# ? Nov 14, 2018 00:26

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

qkkl posted:

Ehh, it's not that dangerous as long as you just treat the soy like oil or some other liquid. Once you do that you just install anti-slosh baffles to limit the soy shifting, or compartmentalize the ship.

This is a dust explosion

https://youtu.be/LQZGWjVwN58

That one is Dixie Crystal near Savannah. Sugar does the same thing, many fine powders (and grain dust is) have this explosion risk.

Regarding the ships stability side. Is there another group A cargo with its own section of SOLAS ( the International Grain Code)? It's not like a liquid because liquids don't settle and stay where they shift to, this is to say a grain shift is not the same as a free surface effect.
And what you're describing is called shifting boards, they aren't really a thing any more. Being inside of the cargo hold of a panamax bulker once would make why obvious.

Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Nov 14, 2018

# ? Nov 14, 2018 03:21

Mr. Fall Down Terror: Jan 24, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

the USCSB video on imperial sugar is great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg7mLSG-Yws

# ? Nov 15, 2018 03:33

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FQUsPSS&ampcf=1

Swine flu hiring pork production before the chinese new year.

# ? Nov 17, 2018 02:16

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-grains-idUSKCN1NQ0GA

# ? Nov 22, 2018 07:36

OhFunny: Jun 26, 2013; EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC

https://twitter.com/SamRo/status/1067167497651175429?s=19

# ? Nov 26, 2018 23:27

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Rigel posted:

Trade Wars are Good and Easy to Win!

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1067205118582509570

# ? Nov 27, 2018 20:48

OhFunny: Jun 26, 2013; EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/st...ingawful.com%2F

Yeah I doubt there'll be a deal.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 21:29

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

marshmonkey posted:

https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1070438427089354752

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...b+Article+Links

# ? Dec 6, 2018 02:28

Morbus: May 18, 2004

OhFunny posted:

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/st...ingawful.com%2F

Yeah I doubt there'll be a deal.

Nose diving into a recession is a bold strategy for a political turnaround after the midterm losses.

# ? Dec 6, 2018 03:09

tino: Jun 4, 2018; by Smythe

I understand Meng is the founder's daughtor.

(let's face it, any previous dealing with Iran was directed by the CCP government, unofficially.)

# ? Dec 6, 2018 03:18

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Also the bonds yield curve inverted, so there's that. Also still not seeing any soy.

# ? Dec 6, 2018 04:39

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1070780294419152896

Baaaaaaad.

# ? Dec 6, 2018 22:18

Lote: Aug 5, 2001; Place your bets

Mozi posted:

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1070780294419152896

Baaaaaaad.

This will surely work out well.

Meanwhile, I'm betting that China retaliates. Perfect target would be someone that is 1) close to the President, 2) has a large financial interest in China, 3) in an industry / company that China can easily control and 4) be relatively fine without said industry / company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas_Sands

# ? Dec 6, 2018 22:29

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

JasonV posted:

https://twitter.com/taralach/status/1071079511373070336

# ? Dec 9, 2018 19:59

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Mozi posted:

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1070780294419152896

Baaaaaaad.

i couldn't help but start giggling in quiet hysteria

# ? Dec 9, 2018 20:51

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

GreyjoyBastard posted:

i couldn't help but start giggling in quiet hysteria

Between and extraditing Gulan the Trump administration really staffs The Best People. :psypop:

# ? Dec 10, 2018 12:03

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

So, given that the US is making besties with China, let's check in on their diplomatic game with the biggest trading bloc in the world:

quote:

Trump's man in Brussels slams 'out of touch' EU

The EU is regulation-obsessed, �out of touch,� and stalling trade negotiations with Washington, U.S. President Donald Trump�s ambassador to the EU said Monday.

And Trump is going to put a stop to it, the ambassador, Gordon Sondland, warned in an interview

�There is clearly an effort to maintain the status quo and we now have to recognize that the relationship and all of the goodwill that has been built up since the Marshall Plan doesn�t seem to count when it comes to getting a little consideration,� Sondland said in the interview at the U.S. embassy in Brussels. �So we are going to have to do what we have to do.�

Washington and Brussels have been engaged in high-stakes trade talks since a meeting at the White House in July between Trump and Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker. At that meeting, Trump agreed to hold off on his threat to impose tariffs on EU-made cars, a move that would dramatically escalate a trade war he initiated by imposing tariffs on European steel and aluminum.

But Sondland�s remarks made clear that Washington is now fed up with what it views as egregious delaying tactics by Brussels. The EU has rejected the accusation and says it remains fully committed to the July agreement.

�There are a multitude of tools available to the president and to the U.S. trade representative beyond just tariffs on cars to make it more difficult for Europe to sell its products to America and I think all of those tools are on the table and available,� Sondland warned. Trump wants to �fundamentally fix the imbalance so that future presidents aren�t saddled with this.�

Sondland said that while he remains on good personal terms with EU officials, he finds the bloc to be utterly obstructionist, so much so that he now routinely jokes during meetings that Brussels won�t give him the time of day. �My joke today is if I ask someone at the EU what time it is, the answer is �no�,� he said.

The interview took place days after a speech in Brussels last week by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who bashed a wide array of international organizations, including the EU, the United Nations, the Organization of American States, the African Union, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the International Criminal Court.

�Is the EU ensuring that the interests of countries and their citizens are placed before those of bureaucrats here in Brussels?� Pompeo asked. �Our mission,� he said of the Trump administration, �is to assert our sovereignty before the international order.�

Sondland said he had not seen the text of Pompeo�s speech in advance but, if he had, would have urged him to make it even tougher. �I completely applaud his speech. I thought it was spot on,� Sondland said. �I did not see it ahead of time, but if I had weighed in, I would have made it even stronger. I thought he was being very subtle.�

�Off in a cloud�

Sondland said he hears frequently from European businesses frustrated by EU regulation and bureaucracy. �When I meet with � various business groups, when I meet with chambers of commerce, whatever the organization is,� he said, �the discussion turns to our difficulties in moving the EU anywhere on any issue.�

�The Commission in particular is out of touch with reality,� Sondland said. �They are off in a cloud, regulating to the heart�s content, and regulating some things that don�t even need to be regulated because they haven�t even occurred yet, while stifling growth and innovation. And like I said, the most caustic remarks that I hear are from indigenous European business leaders, from all different countries.�

He described the stalling tactics as totally logical. �They are enjoying the benefits of a completely disproportionate relationship, and every day that goes by that that relationship continues to be disproportionate in their favor, why would they want to change it?� Sondland said.

�We tried to fix it without ruffling feathers � unsuccessfully,� he continued. �Because it�s apparent that the transatlantic relationship, as much as it�s celebrated, appears on the EU side to be very transactional. You know the fact that we have done what we have done for Europe since the end of World War II speaks for itself � and a lot of it was selfless.

�It doesn�t count when it comes to asking the European Union to cut us a little slack and shift some of the benefit across the table to us, so we can feel like we are getting a fair shake. And this is what the president has been complaining about. So we don�t ever beg. That�s not our style. But we do what we need to do in order to fix a problem. And if it can�t be done in a voluntary and cooperative fashion, it�ll have to be done in other ways.�

The Commission declined to comment on the content of the interview with Sondland other than to point out its earlier statements on transatlantic trade.

In Brussels, EU officials have said it is the Trump administration that has repeatedly sought to rewrite the July agreement after realizing that Trump had agreed to a terrible deal � effectively offering to eliminate tariffs, and non-tariff barriers on industrial goods but excluding agricultural products, which Juncker had warned posed too many political obstacles.

Sondland insisted agricultural products were never excluded from the deal. �Completely incorrect,� he said.

As part of that deal, Juncker said EU countries would increase purchases of U.S. soybeans and liquified natural gas (LNG) � increases that were likely to happen anyway as a result of market conditions. Washington now seems to realize that making those promises was not a heavy lift for Brussels.

�The EU itself doesn�t buy soybeans,� Sondland said. �Companies in the EU buy soybeans and that�s really a function of pricing in the market, like any commodity. Same with LNG.� The ambassador complained that even a pledge to allow an increase in imports to the EU of American hormone-free beef had not come to fruition.

�That doesn�t even involve a lot of money � in the context of a $150 billion trade deficit, it�s not moving the needle,� he said. �But even that we can�t get done.�

It�s all France�s fault

When asked who in the EU was pressing the anti-U.S. agenda, Sondland leveled particularly harsh criticism at France.

�The French are heavily involved,� he said. �They don�t seem to care about the German car industry or any other car industry, other than their own. And you know they want to protect agriculture at all costs, even if it completely destabilizes the relationship, and I think they are taking a very parochial view.�

Apart from trade, Sondland also criticized the EU for obstructing U.S. policy on numerous other fronts, including by �clinging� to the Iran nuclear accord, which Trump has abandoned, and by some EU countries continuing to support the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline from Russia to Germany.

�We don�t want it to happen, because we want the EU to buy its energy from anyone other than Russia,� Sondland said. �The president�s motivation is he does not want Europe to be in a position where someone can turn off the gas at a moment of tension, because indirectly or directly we�ll be involved in something like that and we don�t want to be. We want Europe to have complete energy independence.�

The ambassador also accused EU members of NATO of resisting Trump�s push for increased military spending on the alliance, while being willing to raise spending on the EU�s own security and defense projects.

Sondland said the EU security initiatives �might not be harmonious with NATO�s own expenditures and NATO�s needs.�

He noted that some leaders, including France�s Emmanuel Macron, have called for creating an EU army, while others are highly resistant to that idea.

�You see those two extremes and it leads you to wonder, when you are writing the kinds of checks that we�re writing every year to NATO, where do they really stand?� Sondland said. �And it�s a fair question for America to ask because it�s keeping its commitments to NATO. It�s asking others to step up their commitments. On one hand they are hesitating, but on the other hand they are happy to fund the EU�s capabilities when some of those capabilities may not be complementary to NATO at all, and may be in competition with NATO, which would really add insult to injury.�

Sondland also criticized the EU for taking a protectionist approach to military procurement, putting U.S. manufacturers at an unfair disadvantage.

�The EU, largely driven by the French, is trying to build a fence around their own industries, exclude others, but at the same time would still like us to buy a lot of their products and help defend Europe,� he said. �So it�s a cake-and-eat-it-too issue.�

In the end, Sondland said, European leaders were failing to capitalize on the opportunity to work with Trump.

�I told them � you should be taking advantage of the fact that you have a very non-ideological president who is a dealmaker. He wants to make a deal � You should take advantage of that. This is a deal person. You should make a deal,� he said. �They don�t want to make a deal.�

Well, that seems smooth sailing.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 19:49

Lumpy: Apr 26, 2002; La! La! La! Laaaa!; College Slice

quote:

"...European leaders were failing to capitalize on the opportunity to work with Trump."

Now why on earth would anyone not want to do business with Trump?

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:05

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Lumpy posted:

Now why on earth would anyone not want to do business with Trump?

What does that even mean? What deal exactly is the EU failing to make with the greatest deal maker of all time?

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:42

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

What does that even mean? What deal exactly is the EU failing to make with the greatest deal maker of all time?

"Why don't you let the US flood the most anti-GM market in existence with modified crops, HFCS, and hormone beef, plus some lovely cars nobody wants anyway"

Also, you need more US style open capital markets with even less control and data protection because ...

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:46

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

What does that even mean? What deal exactly is the EU failing to make with the greatest deal maker of all time?

trump wants to make individual deals with eu member companies specifically to undercut the eu as a trading block

but the UK believed him on that and now he's like "eh we'll get around to it someday" when the UK starts asking about what the US had in mind post-brexit

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:49

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Junior G-man posted:

"Why don't you let the US flood the most anti-GM market in existence with modified crops, HFCS, and hormone beef, plus some lovely cars nobody wants anyway"

Also, you need more US style open capital markets with even less control and data protection because ...

Just imagine if our leaders were dumb enough to go along with this. There'd be open revolt before the end of the year.

Goddamn the Trump administration is stupid.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:54

Lumpy: Apr 26, 2002; La! La! La! Laaaa!; College Slice

Junior G-man posted:

"Why don't you let the US flood the most anti-GM market in existence with modified crops, HFCS, and hormone beef, plus some lovely cars nobody wants anyway"

Also, you need more US style open capital markets with even less control and data protection because ...

Hmmm.... I'm not sure about this.... what? You'll throw in a case of Trump Steaks�? DONE!

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:54

i am harry: Oct 14, 2003

Junior G-man posted:

Sondland said he hears frequently from European businesses frustrated by EU regulation and bureaucracy. �When I meet with � various business groups, when I meet with chambers of commerce, whatever the organization is,� he said, �the discussion turns to our difficulties in moving the EU anywhere on any issue.�

gently caress ALL BUSINESS GROUPS OUR PLANET IS A POT OF BOILING WATER, THEY'RE THE SALT, AND WE'RE THE FROGS!
I apologize; my child is asleep and my mouth must scream.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:58

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Junior G-man posted:

"Why don't you let the US flood the most anti-GM market in existence with modified crops, HFCS, and hormone beef, plus some lovely cars nobody wants anyway"

Also, you need more US style open capital markets with even less control and data protection because ...

Yeah, but what do we get in response? He is phrasing it like we are missing out on some great opportunities. Like, in his mind, what are we missing out on?

# ? Dec 10, 2018 21:06

Lumpy: Apr 26, 2002; La! La! La! Laaaa!; College Slice

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

Yeah, but what do we get in response? He is phrasing it like we are missing out on some great opportunities. Like, in his mind, what are we missing out on?

Deals. The best deals. Deals so good, you'll be wondering why you didn't take these deals before. Now, I don't say these are the best deals, but a lot of people say this. A lot of people. They're talking about these deals and how they're the best deals out there.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 21:09

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

Yeah, but what do we get in response? He is phrasing it like we are missing out on some great opportunities. Like, in his mind, what are we missing out on?

Gold leaf covered deals. The best deals with the best people. The kind of deal that makes you think "wow, if only I knew the world was this great before".

Serious answer: Even when the TTIP EU-US trade deal was nearing completion under Obama the official EC estimate was that it would only add 1% to EU GDP, and that would be for very specific sectors like services. I'm not saying 1% EU GDP isn't a lot, because of the scale of the economy it definitely is, but in terms of growth it's still a rounding error.

# ? Dec 11, 2018 00:02

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

To get an understanding of the amount of US Soy they just said was ordered, which I've seen reported to be 1.2 or 1.5 million metric tons, think of roughly 18 - 22 panamax bulk carriers loaded to the typical draft restrictions of chinese discharge ports.

It's not really a lot. It's enough to say they did something but that's about it. Also might be weeks before any of it moves.

# ? Dec 15, 2018 05:04

OhFunny: Jun 26, 2013; EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1073788568127066112?s=19

Pushed back from January 1st.

# ? Dec 15, 2018 06:21

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

OhFunny posted:

Pushed back from January 1st.

Trump: Let's keep delaying the China trade deal until the US stock market recovers (it wouldn't)."

# ? Dec 15, 2018 06:40

tino: Jun 4, 2018; by Smythe

Does the Meng case has a 60 days limit on US sending Canada the proper extradition paper? I wouldn't be surprised if the paperwork is "mishandled" along the way. It's going to be a circus.

# ? Dec 15, 2018 06:47

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Holy poo poo that's less than I thought.

marshmonkey posted:

https://twitter.com/scholten4iowa/status/1073608467699646464

That's like only two corn ships to Japan!

# ? Dec 15, 2018 22:12

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

Just wait till China starts proxy buying US agri using other countries where everyone involved profits except for the Americans.

Winning is great!

# ? Dec 16, 2018 05:38

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 02:02

tino: Jun 4, 2018; by Smythe

I thought the soybeans are already rotted? Also China had big African swine flu problem this year, they killed tons of pigs so there is no need to feed them.

# ? Dec 16, 2018 07:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Good and Easy to Win: The Trade War Thread

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