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I don't particularly mind the current thread title but feel it's a bit misleading since this has always been a Christianity-centric space. We certainly welcome other voices and always have, I just think "Religionthread" is a broader appellation than what we actually represent. Also, I think other religions deserve their own independent threads, I fear if ever the various A/T religion threads were merged it would dilute the voices of Muslims, Buddhists, and others. I would humbly suggest something along the following: Christianity and Friends: Love your neighbor as yourself, there is no commandment greater Christianity and Friends: For God does not show favoritism Christianity and Friends: the body is one and has many members Though that's largely me grousing. asio posted:Thank you, yes, I think there is a lot of pick n mix when it comes to this. We have a very healthy congregation from South Sudan, who have a licensed anglican priest from their congregation leading upbeat, gospel music-heavy services in the same church we sing Eucharist in three hours earlier every Sunday. Then we have Roman Catholics up the road who sing Mass in Latin but are engaging with the process to try and turn their worship service into something resembling a service in the reformed (or protestant) tradition. The differences are getting very muddy. I think maybe denominations should instead base themselves on what kind of music and worship service they like because the theology is mostly the same, there's just different areas of that same faith they are drawn to in particular. I'm curious what you think of Martin Luther's solae? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae I think that modern Roman Catholics would object to several core principles of Protestantism (under which I'm including the Anglican tradition). I do agree with you that most forms of Protestantism are easily reconcilable--in my experience, there is very little difference in practice between Anglicanism, Methodism, Lutheranism, etc. Please don't feel constrained by the terminology I or others use.
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Nov 13, 2018 08:20
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asio posted:Yes, one finds that "high" Anglican churches prefer reformed and "low" ones protestant. I've got to say that's wildly contrary to my own experience, but this might be a specifically Australian tendency. It['s true there are some High Anglicans who come back round to reformed theology, through Richard Hooker and Arminianism, but that's quite a convoluted journey, and doesn't really represent a recognisable Church faction.
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Nov 13, 2018 10:34
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I just want to chime in - I may be pagan as all hell (Wiccan initiate woop woop), but this discussion is super neat and interesting, and I appreciate how seriously you're all taking this.
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Nov 13, 2018 13:09
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Mad Hamish posted:I just want to chime in - I may be pagan as all hell (Wiccan initiate woop woop), but this discussion is super neat and interesting, and I appreciate how seriously you're all taking this. Welcome pagan bro    Norse heathen/animist here, I live in Denmark and have been following the old powers and trained as a shaman for the last 3-4 years, though I've always been a seeking agnostic. How's being a wiccan working out for you, and how did you become one?
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Nov 13, 2018 13:13
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Pellisworth posted:I'm curious what you think of Martin Luther's solae? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae I looked up the five solae just to make sure and I'm mad about all of them (not really but yeah that's not for me)
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Nov 13, 2018 13:20
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Pellisworth posted:what is reformed Catholicism to be less snarky, there are high-church calvinists and you are probably speaking to one. but like the word or hate it, historically all the reformed religions are protestant. oh well, at least this isn't like when calvinists try to persuade me they're Orthodox.
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Nov 13, 2018 13:27
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asio posted:Yes, one finds that "high" Anglican churches prefer reformed and "low" ones protestant. UCA prefers protestant whereas the type of church that sings Hillsong prefers reformed. (Extremely general statement)
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Nov 13, 2018 13:28
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asio posted:I would probably come across as a high anglican if we met but that's mostly because I prefer the music.
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Nov 13, 2018 13:30
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Liquid Communism posted:My life has instantly become nothing but untuned piano and a dozen singers in eight different keys and time signatures. (sorry, y'all, but it's both unfairly easy and endlessly entertaining to troll anyone who's quote:Every time I think the Church may be pulling itself together, it chooses to act in a way that gives the opposite impression. It's not heartening. I think the American bishops are going to discuss anyway, just not vote or make binding recommendations, which is good, I guess, but it is very much not-heartening that Pope Francis is doing this top-down, all-dioceses-in-sync nonsense instead of a first-among-equals, collegiality-not-curiality attitude that he seems to have elsewhere.
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Nov 13, 2018 13:37
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zonohedron posted:We have come to share our stoooooooooory, we have come to breaaak the breaaaaad.... This is true. Here I aaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmm. Loooooooooooord! It is IIiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, Lord! zonohedron posted:I think the American bishops are going to discuss anyway, just not vote or make binding recommendations, which is good, I guess, but it is very much not-heartening that Pope Francis is doing this top-down, all-dioceses-in-sync nonsense instead of a first-among-equals, collegiality-not-curiality attitude that he seems to have elsewhere. This is also so true it hurts even more than it is supposed to hurt. He's top-down when we don't need it, all collegial when we don't need that.
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Nov 13, 2018 14:06
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I've occasionally heard people claim Mennonites/other Anabaptists as something distinct from Protestants, but naah, though I'd certainly grant that we protested a bit more than some.Lutha Mahtin posted:Well, Luther himself didn't have a coherent branding strategy, at least in terms of how we think about such things today. But I believe he did at least at some points think that perhaps people who formed churches under his ideas should call themselves "evangelical Catholics". Now this is tricky from our modern English-language perspective, since we are greatly influenced by the rise of the American "Evangelical" movement. This is a distinct and different movement compared to how Lutherans use the word "evangelical". I always forget to look up my sources beforehand before talking about this, but basically IIRC there is more than one word in German that we translate into English as "evangelical". And I believe that the one that Lutherans use is not the same one that the American Evangelical Movement uses. Yeah, similiarly, Menno Simons (also German) certainly talked about Anabaptism as an evangelical church; the most famous quotation from his writings is a description of what he calls "the true evangelical faith". And, again, I wouldn't draw many comparisons between that and the American Evangelical movement. (He also probably wouldn't have been super impressed by people naming their church after him, but so it goes.)
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Nov 13, 2018 15:02
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I was vice chair of the Finnish Pagan Network for a year or two over ten years back, AMA. The org is and was strange at the time, because the two biggest groups involved in setting it up in the late nineties were Laveyan Satanists and Wiccans. These days, the big trendy thing is Finnish traditional faith reconstructionism and also driving out nazis.
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Nov 13, 2018 15:50
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The church in West Michigan I grew up in calls itself "Christian Reformed". It is essentially Presbyterian, but originates from Holland/Germany and not Scotland. Their base theology is Calvinism, but since it's presbyterian, churches vary widely in actual teachings.
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Nov 13, 2018 15:52
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docbeard posted:I've occasionally heard people claim Mennonites/other Anabaptists as something distinct from Protestants, but naah, though I'd certainly grant that we protested a bit more than some. It was "Evangelical" (from Greek Evangelion) because it emphasized the Gospels, to distinguish them from the Catholics who emphasized works. The connection with proselytizing came later.
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Nov 13, 2018 16:25
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Tias posted:Welcome pagan bro Oh, it works out fairly well, I think, I've been doing it since 2001 and am now a member of a Tradition that runs public classes and rituals and things, in which I am one of the initiated priesthood. It's not where I thought I'd end up when I started doing all this but I'm happy with where I've landed. I hugely disagree with the fashion in which a lot of BTW covens are run and I'm very happy my Tradition (Odyssean) runs public temples to let people dip a toe into the water, as it were. Not all people are drawn to being clergy and that is super ok! So, uh, if people have questions about that, feel free to ask. I'm super happy to see that you've been working on running the Nazis out of your local community, they've become a massive problem and I am always super leery of Norse folk and have to assume they're racist fascists until proven otherwise. Maybe someday that will change.
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Nov 13, 2018 17:49
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Mad Hamish posted:I'm super happy to see that you've been working on running the Nazis out of your local community, they've become a massive problem and I am always super leery of Norse folk and have to assume they're racist fascists until proven otherwise. Maybe someday that will change. Oh word, Odyssean? Do you have mediterranean ancestry or is it just one of those eclectic things? I'm sad that you think so, but if you're in the US I can't fault you for thinking so. Your largest asatru group is, well, nazitru and couldn't read a saga to save their lives. Fortunately the good folk are in the majority in many areas still, also in the US. Check out Huginn's Heathen Hof or Heathens United Against Fascism if you want to learn more.
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Nov 13, 2018 18:29
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Tias posted:Oh word, Odyssean? Do you have mediterranean ancestry or is it just one of those eclectic things? Odyssean is the name of the Tradition, much like there's the Gardnerian or Alexandrian Traditions. Naw, I'm in Canada, we get tragic white trash Sons of Odin and such around here at Pagan Pride Day. Usually loudly making fun of them for being fabulous examples of the inherent superiority of the white race will make them go away.
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Nov 13, 2018 18:33
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Oh okay, I've just read the wiki article. It's pretty amazing how many kinds of wicca have branched out and survived to the modern day. Oh, good - glad they're not enough to hurt anyone!
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Nov 13, 2018 18:52
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isn't wicca from the mid 20th century? or did it almost die our or something
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Nov 13, 2018 18:57
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Yeah, AFAIK the effort to create a nature religion that would eventually become Wicca started in the early 1920s. Some of the originators, like Gardner, claim to have contact with practicioners of a much older witchcraft, but when pressed refused to identify them or their tradition.
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Nov 13, 2018 19:18
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Lutha Mahtin posted:isn't wicca from the mid 20th century? or did it almost die our or something https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardnerian_Wicca if you're interested in the actual tradition of western esotericism, which was A Thing from the classical period until the seventeenth century, that's one thing (although there's the question of whether or not it's moral). although i do not begrudge Wiccans if they're good people, this isn't that. edit: mad haimish is saying he is a member of this group. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 13, 2018 |
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Nov 13, 2018 19:18
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Tias posted:nature religion
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Nov 13, 2018 19:20
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I'll always be kind of interested in neopaganism and esotericism both because it was a History of Witchcraft class in college that first got me to say 'Oh wow, religion is really cool to study'. Which in turn ended up leading me back to Christianity as a faith as well as as something to study. I ended my agnostic period because a professor sat me down and helped explain how the purposes of the gospels are to tell a theological rather strictly historical narrative, which helped me get over 'but how are there 4 different accounts of the same event that don't agree' as an objection.
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Nov 13, 2018 19:24
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HEY GUNS posted:it's from the early 20th century but they used to believe it was the reconstruction of an ancient religion. this was bad anthropology. I’m interested in reading more about this morally questionable authentic western esotericism you speak of (for purely academic reasons of course). Where do I start? I have Copenhaver’s Hermetica translation already on my reading list if that counts.
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Nov 13, 2018 20:15
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ProperGanderPusher posted:I’m interested in reading more about this morally questionable authentic western esotericism you speak of (for purely academic reasons of course). Where do I start? I have Copenhaver’s Hermetica translation already on my reading list if that counts. it's here http://www.esotericarchives.com/esoteric.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Magical_Papyri this is also supposedly good but it's difficult to find: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Traditions-Belief-Late-Byzantine-Demonology/dp/9025609627 anyway dilettantes who didn't believe in God ruined this poo poo in the 18th century and then hippies and Crowley ruined it in the 19th and 20th
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Nov 13, 2018 21:08
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ProperGanderPusher posted:I’m interested in reading more about this morally questionable authentic western esotericism you speak of I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "authentic" but there is definitely a long history in the Western world of weird mystic and esoteric beliefs and traditions. It isn't a single tradition or anything, either, rather it's many different people in many different times and places who developed or kept lots of different beliefs and rituals and whatnot. And sometimes these esoteric things would get partially rolled into Christianity, or a church would create or modify a belief (or a saint or something) as a "competing" version of some local esoteric thing!
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Nov 13, 2018 22:04
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Man, aside from the danger, summoning demons and being cruel to them just seems - well. Cruel. If they're really fallen angels, or some other order of creature separated from God, then man, they're suffering enough. No need to be dicks about it. I also would not summon an angel because I don't want to meet one while I'm alive. Too many eyeballs. 
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Nov 13, 2018 23:25
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HopperUK posted:Man, aside from the danger, summoning demons and being cruel to them just seems - well. Cruel. If they're really fallen angels, or some other order of creature separated from God, then man, they're suffering enough. No need to be dicks about it.
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Nov 13, 2018 23:28
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I wouldn't want to summon an angel or demon because I first learned about them in the context of 'these are Immortal and you are Mortal and so there is a definitional, unbridgeable and massive gulf of power between you that could only ever be overcome by the intercession of God' and so I'd rather not mess around with that.
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Nov 13, 2018 23:32
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I've mentioned it itt before but Tim Power's Declare has some good stuff milking angels or some relative thereof for lovecraftian horror
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Nov 13, 2018 23:51
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HEY GUNS posted:the book i linked is, in general, morally gross. it's furtive and unwholesome. there are instructions for how to cause discord and how to make women who don't like you sleep with you. Ancient pick-up artist texts about negging demons to get girls?
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Nov 14, 2018 01:59
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Liquid Communism posted:Ancient pick-up artist texts about negging demons to get girls? Hilarious. The proto-incels. Interesting assumptions: A. Demons have power over whomever they chose, or you can grant authority over someone, or grant authority period. B. You can just ring any old demon up. C. That demon, who has enough power and influence to get someone to desire you, will totally not influence you.
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Nov 14, 2018 02:34
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There was some early modern inquisitor who wrote a book against witch hunts pointing out that even if you caught a genuine witch and broke her with torture she would, being influenced by a being of pure evil whose job is tricking people into sinning, obviously give you false information to encourage you to lynch innocents
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Nov 14, 2018 02:56
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StashAugustine posted:There was some early modern inquisitor who wrote a book against witch hunts pointing out that even if you caught a genuine witch and broke her with torture she would, being influenced by a being of pure evil whose job is tricking people into sinning, obviously give you false information to encourage you to lynch innocents holy wow, this is basically some "goon trying futilely to help the goon who's stuck in a well" stuff. did this person catch a bunch of flack for the book? that's pretty much the only reaction my ignorant self can imagine that the witch-hunt proponents would have against an appeal to logic like that
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Nov 14, 2018 03:53
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Mad Hamish posted:Odyssean is the name of the Tradition, much like there's the Gardnerian or Alexandrian Traditions. I have a question for you about this kind of stuff but I put it into the ancient history thread first. I would have messaged you directly if you had plat but I'll just give you a link to my other post. Please look: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3486446&pagenumber=733#post489827062
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Nov 14, 2018 03:57
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Spee Seems to have gotten a decent reception, although someone probably knows more than that
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Nov 14, 2018 03:58
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HopperUK posted:Man, aside from the danger, summoning demons and being cruel to them just seems - well. Cruel. If they're really fallen angels, or some other order of creature separated from God, then man, they're suffering enough. No need to be dicks about it. That's good thinking, I think. Being a dick generally invites trouble. StashAugustine posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Spee Boy, his points about torture are still having to be made today. Is there nothing new under the sun, Lord?!
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Nov 14, 2018 04:37
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Pellisworth posted:
I think the five points have been spread so successfully it's the norm for pretty much any denomination from the view from the pews. There may be some theology nerds arguing back and forth in a uni somewhere, but in practise on the street in stewardship and from the Sunday pulpit that's the general consensus. There's also the heavy Wesleyan influence in the early development of the church in australia, which shares a lot with what you have shared. Any church "hierarchy" is either tradition/respecting those who have studied longer; or is being slowly broken up into a more non-hierarchical model (including the local Roman Catholics who want to move to a more synodal model). We had a royal commission into pedophile priests so now the only people left in church are the "true believers" and it's really changing the face of the church. E: HEY GUNS posted:Oh, you're High Anglican? God, I'm sorry for insulting you. Never mind. "Let us give thanks to the Lord our God We pay respect to the traditional owners of this land, the Yuggera-Yuggerapul God save the Queen, Defender of the Faith" It's a little different I suppose... asio fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 05:15
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asio posted:I think the five points have been spread so successfully it's the norm for pretty much any denomination from the view from the pews. There may be some theology nerds arguing back and forth in a uni somewhere, but in practise on the street in stewardship and from the Sunday pulpit that's the general consensus. There's also the heavy Wesleyan influence in the early development of the church in australia, which shares a lot with what you have shared. my dude, do you realize how absolutely crass and gross you are coming across, to almost all of the regular posters in this thread? i admit i am speaking for multiple people who have not given me the authority to speak for them, but holy poo poo are you even serious
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Nov 14, 2018 05:22
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Lutha Mahtin posted:my dude, do you realize how absolutely crass and gross you are coming across, to almost all of the regular posters in this thread? i admit i am speaking for multiple people who have not given me the authority to speak for them, but holy poo poo are you even serious Ok I'll stop. But if it helps, put a big asterisk next to everything *applies only to a particular region on thebother side of the world to you
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Nov 14, 2018 05:24
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