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Lutha Mahtin posted:my dude, do you realize how absolutely crass and gross you are coming across, to almost all of the regular posters in this thread? i admit i am speaking for multiple people who have not given me the authority to speak for them, but holy poo poo are you even serious what are you even mad about, seriously?
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Nov 14, 2018 05:48
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CommonShore posted:I have a question for you about this kind of stuff but I put it into the ancient history thread first. I would have messaged you directly if you had plat but I'll just give you a link to my other post. Please look: I PM'd you but I think that tattoo reads "wotan mit uns," or "Wotan (Odin) with us" in German. Tias is probably more familiar with runes than I am. edit: the only odd thing is the final "s" rune is backwards, which might be a deliberate choice since facing the other direction would make it identical to the infamous Nazi SS "sig" rune Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 06:07
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StashAugustine posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Spee There was a lot of anti-witchhunt sentiment, especially in the Catholic Church, and within the Catholic Church, especially among religious orders. The older medieval Catholic view was that, while magic existed, and magic that was used for evil purposes was itself evil (doesn't matter if you kill somebody by stabbing him or cursing him), witchcraft, in the sense of swearing loyalty to the devil in exchange for magic powers), didn't exist. Anybody who said they were a witch was either lying, or a heretic, or deluded, or ignorant, or mentally ill. So, from the medieval point of view, the solution was for the authorities to educate people about the falseness of witchcraft, or tell them to stop lying, or treat them, or punish them for heresy, or whatever. But it started with the assumption that people weren't telling the truth. Then in the 15th century, this Dominican Inquisitor named Heinrich Kramer believes in witchcraft in a big way. He wanders around what's now Austria and the Czech Republic hunting witches. The local bishops aren't impressed, first of all because they think all this talk about witchcraft is garbage anyway, and second, because they're not big fans of the Inquisition. They've got cities and dioceses to run, and the last thing they want is some Dominicans from out of town getting everybody all excited and upset. But Kramer doesn't like how he's been treated, and he's got pull. He's friends with the Archbishop of Salzberg, and back before he became an Inquisitor, he impressed a bunch of important people in Rome. Meanwhile, Innocent VIII is the pope, and Innocent VIII loves the Inquisition. He thinks local bishops are too lax anyway, too tied up with local power structures, and that the Church needs the Inquisition to keep people in line. So, Kramer gets Innocent VIII to write a papal bull called Summis desiderantes affectibus, which says, basically, "Hey, witchcraft is real, and demons and witches are out there. Kramer says so, and he's cool and is educated about this sort of stuff. So local bishops should stay out of Kramer's way and let him do his job. So Kramer goes to Innsbruck, and he puts this woman, named Helena Scheuberin, on trial in front of the Bishop's court for murdering a knight using magic. In the investigation, a bunch of other people are implicated, and Kramer is sure he's found a witches coven. The trial goes horribly for Kramer. A bunch of the witnesses have personal biases against some of the defendants. Kramer tries to focus the trial on Scheuberin's sex life, saying she sleeps around and trying to get into really lecherous details, until the Bishop's representatives shut down the line of questioning, saying, "Look, now you're just being prurient and we're all getting kind of uncomfortable here. Besides, even if she's a slut, that doesn't prove she's a witch." Ultimately, the court lets the women go, and says to Schuberin, "Look, if you're doing magic, stop it, and stop cheating on your husband, and try to be nicer to people." Kramer's mad, and decides, "I know she's a witch! My investigation will continue until she pays for her sins!" At this point, both the Archduke who ruled the area and the Bishop get involved, and the Bishop writes him saying, "Look, this whole trial was an embarrassment. You've annoyed the Archduke and he's complaining to me, you've stirred up the population, all for nothing. Just leave." So, he leaves, and he writes a book, called "The Hammer of Witches", which is a big book about how witchcraft is real, and here's how you can tell if somebody's a witch, and goes into a lot of detail. He sticks somebody else's name on it as coauthor (Dr. Josef Spengler, a fellow Dominican who's a famous and popular professor at the University of Cologne), and puts the papal bull at the back of the book, so as to say, "See, this book is approved by the Pope!" Obviously, the book wasn't approved by the pope. The Inqusition denounces it, and it never really becomes anything official, and Kramer is told he'd make better use of his time talking about how great the Eucharist is and condemning proto-Protestant groups like the Picards.
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Nov 14, 2018 06:57
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Lutha Mahtin posted:my dude, do you realize how absolutely crass and gross you are coming across, to almost all of the regular posters in this thread? i admit i am speaking for multiple people who have not given me the authority to speak for them, but holy poo poo are you even serious 
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Nov 14, 2018 07:34
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I'd heard of Kramer's book but didn't know the rest of the story, that's hilarious and the post owns.  also clearly witches are a Protestant hoax to divert attention from their wicked ways
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Nov 14, 2018 07:47
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magic is everywhere, but people swearing fealty to the devil in exchange for magic is rare. the moral of this story is Central Europe is weird anyway historians always misinterpret the malleus, they point to it like  look at what's wrong with this hideous age and the Catholic Church in general, etc. ThePopeOfFun posted:Hilarious. The proto-incels. i like the Liber Juris Honorii better, which has instructions for how to summon the angels who live on other planets haven;t read the others yet, will trip report as i go HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 08:06
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Pellisworth posted:what are you even mad about, seriously? Pellisworth posted:I PM'd you but I think that tattoo reads "wotan mit uns," or "Wotan (Odin) with us" in German. Tias is probably more familiar with runes than I am.
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Nov 14, 2018 08:17
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HEY GUNS posted:asio is speaking like every protestant on earth agrees with one another and also with him. this made LM kinda mad It made him mad, and there was an outburst. It made asio relent, but it also confused and disturbed others.
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Nov 14, 2018 08:38
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CommonShore posted:I have a question for you about this kind of stuff but I put it into the ancient history thread first. I would have messaged you directly if you had plat but I'll just give you a link to my other post. Please look: Cross-posting my answer, then:  CommonShore posted:We've been on pagan stuff lately, and you guys seem (mostly) level headed so I need some help with some runic .... stuff. Vegvisirs and valknuts are not associated with chuds specifically, though they are immensely popular "viking" motifs with all sorts of people, including a lot of nazis because creativity isn't their strong suit. I and a lot of other internationalist/antifa heathens have them tattooed as well, as they supposedly bring power towards various challenges. Two visirs on the knees sound dumb as they're supposed to worn on the upper body and seems like some toxic macho poo poo to me - but again, they aren't nazi symbols. The text, however, hoo boy. It seems to be written in the elder futhark, in the order wunjo-othala-tiwaz-ansuz-naudiz - ehwaz-isaz-tiwaz - uruz-naudiz-inverted sowilo, which is transliterates to "WOTAN MIT UNS", except the S(owulo) is pointing in the wrong direction, which I can only interpret one way: The Schutzstaffel (nazi SS) lightning bolt insignia consisted of two Sowulo pointing the wrong way as well, and the whole usage of "GOTT MIT UNS" with Odin filling in is so machodumb and christianized that we're in all likelihood dealing with a nazi. Tias fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 09:26
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Tias posted:the whole usage of "GOTT MIT UNS" with Odin filling in is so machodumb and christianized that we're in all likelihood dealing with a nazi. And therefore also WW2, which is probably where this guy got it. He probably doesn't know that the origin is a Swedish guy who was very serious about being a pious Lutheran. I have yelled "Gott mit uns" at the top of my lungs with hundreds of other men at reenactments, but it's in the early 17th century Sweden context. Used to make me feel a little weird. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 09:38
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I'm aware, and will stress that I don't find anything wrong with the phrase itself - it's just that it's become very popular with the neo-fascist chuds and by extension some "asatru" nazis as well. Indeed, a lot of nazitru beliefs, particularly in the Odinist and Thordredson crowds, are taken whole hog from old testament ethics, becuase they actually just wanted to be southern racists without having to worship a jew.
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Nov 14, 2018 09:44
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It's extremely funny because those words make me think either of Gustavus Adolphus, who would have been puzzled at best, or Frederick the Great, who would have also been puzzled but for different reasons. He didn't even like Christianity, imagine trying to tell him there are people out there who worship the Norse Gods. edit: Actually I wonder if one of the intellectual history people itt can tell me if 17th and 18th century educated people, having been told there are norse pagan reconstructionists, would have tried to assimilate the norse gods to their own beliefs about classical antiquity and the Greco-Roman gods. You have Frederick the Great and a time machine: what does he think about Tias's religion? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 09:46
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HEY GUNS posted:You have Frederick the Great and a time machine: what does he think about Tias's religion? Well, there were already self-proclaimed Druids during Frederick the Great's life, so there isn't such a great intellectual gulf there.
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Nov 14, 2018 10:50
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My Moral Compass Is Frederick The Great And A Time Machine
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Nov 14, 2018 11:35
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Tias posted:I'm aware, and will stress that I don't find anything wrong with the phrase itself - it's just that it's become very popular with the neo-fascist chuds and by extension some "asatru" nazis as well. Indeed, a lot of nazitru beliefs, particularly in the Odinist and Thordredson crowds, are taken whole hog from old testament ethics, becuase they actually just wanted to be southern racists without having to worship a jew. In much the same way, DEUS VULT has become the cry of the nominally-Christian neo-fascist chud.
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Nov 14, 2018 13:02
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HEY GUNS posted:it's from the early 20th century but they used to believe it was the reconstruction of an ancient religion. this was bad anthropology. Anyone seriously claiming to be a member of a Murray-style witch-cult is deluded, lying, or both. The nails have been driven into that coffin for decades at this point, people need to let it go. Fortunately we are, by and large, more accepting of actual history these days.
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Nov 14, 2018 13:12
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Liquid Communism posted:In much the same way, DEUS VULT has become the cry of the nominally-Christian neo-fascist chud. Or "In Hoc Signo Vinces" used by the English Defense League 
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Nov 14, 2018 13:23
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Tias posted:Or "In Hoc Signo Vinces" used by the English Defense League
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Nov 14, 2018 13:35
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HEY GUNS posted:i too love dudes from istanbul I just love Pall Mall menthols.
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Nov 14, 2018 13:52
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HEY GUNS posted:asio is speaking like every protestant on earth agrees with one another and also with him. this made LM kinda mad I guess it was pretty clear to me that asio was posting mainly about their own experience and context (Australia). Even if asio did intend to generalize to Protestants writ large, I don't think LM's outburst and hostility is appropriate, especially since asio is new to the thread and may not be familiar with the broader Christian context and variety of Christian thought. It's uncharitable and I'd hope we'd be more patient and welcoming rather than rushing to judgment.
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Nov 14, 2018 15:19
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StashAugustine posted:There was some early modern inquisitor who wrote a book against witch hunts pointing out that even if you caught a genuine witch and broke her with torture she would, being influenced by a being of pure evil whose job is tricking people into sinning, obviously give you false information to encourage you to lynch innocents I know it was several pages ago, and I meant to comment on it earlier, but this all relates to my general thoughts on Castlevania. The second season has priests who are so paranoid about witchcraft that one of them freaks out at a centrifuge moving on its own. And how about the way the clergy pronounce "God" like it has about five extra H's? "Nothing to do with GHOHHHDH??? Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 15:50
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In fairness if you lived in a world where vampires, physical, people-eating demons, and necromancers were all demonstrably real you'd probably be a little more paranoid about witchcraft, too.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:11
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Nov 14, 2018 16:21
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In the Castlevania case, I think it's fair to assume that the existence of werewolves strengthened Hungarian influence over Wallachia (as one would expect), resulting in an expanded Catholic presence.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:30
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:In fairness if you lived in a world where vampires, physical, people-eating demons, and necromancers were all demonstrably real you'd probably be a little more paranoid about witchcraft, too. Which is why it's interesting that the medieval period and early modern both had a belief in the reality of demons and magic but only one went crazy about witchcraft. Also Castlevania is good, don't get too hung up on the inaccuracies of an American cartoon based on a Japanese video game inspired by old American monster movies very loosely based on 19th century British novels that might have borne some passing resemblance to Eastern European folktales.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:35
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StashAugustine posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Spee People trying to talk down witchhunters was a whole thing. The Discoverie of Witchcraft by Reginald Scot is basically all about how witches are either charlatans or mad, and it's cruel to persecute them. It was also the main source on witchcraft for many early modern English writers, including Shakespeare. To slightly repeat something Hey Guns has been banging on about for a while, Scot absolutely believed the practice and efficacy of magic, which underlines just how distinctly people viewed esotericism and witchcraft.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:39
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P-Mack posted:Also Castlevania is good, don't get too hung up on the inaccuracies of an American cartoon based on a Japanese video game inspired by old American monster movies very loosely based on 19th century British novels that might have borne some passing resemblance to Eastern European folktales.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:43
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P-Mack posted:Which is why it's interesting that the medieval period and early modern both had a belief in the reality of demons and magic but only one went crazy about witchcraft.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:53
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Mr Enderby posted:To slightly repeat something Hey Guns has been banging on about for a while, Scot absolutely believed the practice and efficacy of magic, which underlines just how distinctly people viewed esotericism and witchcraft. Well, you know, witchcraft was superstition, but magic was science.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:56
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Keromaru5 posted:That has been an important check on my feelings about it since the first season. yeah after i posted about how mad it was making me i reflected upon the fact that the games have even worse ham-fisted Western church imagery. also you can burn witches and evil scientists alive by throwing holy water on them and you can hunt bats by using a crucifix as a boomerang
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Nov 14, 2018 17:17
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I think it's a mistake to dismiss the imagery just because it's trashy and historically inaccurate. The idea in Castlevania is that the Church is a corrupt repressive institution, but at the same time that the power of faith and God is manifestly real -- and not just real, but accessible even to deeply flawed people. The image of a zombie priest (who was a shithead in life to begin with) blessing a river in order to turn it into holy water to destroy vampires is grotesque and kinda sacrilegious, but it's also kind of interesting; it shows God working good after a fashion through the actions of literal evil monsters, and also suggests a kind of "scientific" approach to the divine: you have a priest, you have water, you can make holy water. It's all based on observable, learnable rules.
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Nov 14, 2018 17:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The image of a zombie priest (who was a shithead in life to begin with) blessing a river in order to turn it into holy water to destroy vampires is grotesque and kinda sacrilegious, but it's also kind of interesting; it shows God working good after a fashion through the actions of literal evil monsters, and also suggests a kind of "scientific" approach to the divine: you have a priest, you have water, you can make holy water. It's all based on observable, learnable rules. Have you read The Power and the Glory?
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Nov 14, 2018 17:31
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Mr Enderby posted:Have you read The Power and the Glory? I haven't; does it have a discussion of this idea?
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Nov 14, 2018 17:32
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I haven't; does it have a discussion of this idea? Yes. It's set in Mexico around the time of the Cristero War, with the state trying to regulate the catholic church out of existence. The main character is a an alcoholic priest who has fathered a child. but he continues to risk his life by dispensing the sacraments because he knows his own failings don't devalue them. Edit: there's an interesting quote from Evelyn Waugh, which I think taps into the same sort of ideas, describing his conversion. I was not at all attracted by the splendour of [the Church's] great ceremonies – which the Protestants could well counterfeit. Of the extraneous attractions of the Church which most drew me was the spectacle of the priest and his server at low Mass, stumping up to the altar without a glance to discover how many or how few he had in his congregation; a craftsman and his apprentice; a man with a job which he alone was qualified to do. Mr Enderby fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 17:39
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Lutha Mahtin posted:yeah after i posted about how mad it was making me i reflected upon the fact that the games have even worse ham-fisted Western church imagery. also you can burn witches and evil scientists alive by throwing holy water on them and you can hunt bats by using a crucifix as a boomerang None of which has ever detracted from my enjoyment of the games, of course. I've just been replaying Symphony of the Night, and thinking there is something to be said for the fact that the son of Dracula himself can wield the Bible, the Body of Christ, and the Holy Cross against demonic forces.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:21
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Keromaru5 posted:the games tend to be set in a generic "Europe" even when it's labeled as Romania That's the only weird thing about the show to me, it's very specific with placenames and dates to no real purpose. And sure Alucard is unavoidably stained by the sin of his birth, which makes him an extremely normal person from a Catholic perspective. Now, the important question is could he be safely baptized or would it count as holy water for purposes of bursting into flame?
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Nov 14, 2018 18:33
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Mr Enderby posted:I was not at all attracted by the splendour of [the Church's] great ceremonies – which the Protestants could well counterfeit. Of the extraneous attractions of the Church which most drew me was the spectacle of the priest and his server at low Mass, stumping up to the altar without a glance to discover how many or how few he had in his congregation; a craftsman and his apprentice; a man with a job which he alone was qualified to do. on the other hand i am also 100% here for the splendor of the great ceremonies
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Nov 14, 2018 18:41
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P-Mack posted:Now, the important question is could he be safely baptized or would it count as holy water for purposes of bursting into flame? But that may be more a factor of Good Guy Bullets vs. Bad Guy Bullets than anything.
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Nov 14, 2018 19:07
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HEY GUNS posted:this is ABSOLUTELY what my priest at home is like. He's not a saint as far as i know, he's...a dude. He likes LOTR and he's got New Balance sneakers and a big caftan, the one Easter i bought bad wine because the label looked good he made fun of me, and he and his daughter have a job to do and they do it. this is one of those things that's obvious when your parent is a pastor. why do people not understand that my dad is just a guy who goes home after work on Sunday, tends his bird feeders, and takes a nap with a kung fu movie playing on the tv
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Nov 14, 2018 19:38
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Lutha Mahtin posted:kung fu movie playing on the tv Does Papa Rev. Mahtin have a favorite kung fu flick?
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Nov 14, 2018 20:03
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