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Prester Jane posted:I like how you just didn't answer the question and instead took an opportunity for a cheap shot. I personally would like to see Condiv's questions answered. Less flippantly the purpose was to squeeze Sinema's margins on the left so that she loses the Arizona senate election. After the election they don't care although it certainly keeps you well-primed for the next thing.
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Nov 14, 2018 17:55
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Rigel posted:I wasn't intimately familiar with the issues debated in the AZ Senate race, but a quick google search seems to firmly suggest that you are wrong about Sinema wrt child concentration camps. She's not even in favor of holding families for very long prior to their immigration hearing. I think the somewhat breathless argument is that ICE is a rogue agency that does what it wants and support for ICE is the same thing as supporting child concentration camps.
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Nov 14, 2018 17:56
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Ogmius815 posted:That said, I really wish she'd stop mentioning her bachelor's degree in economics as if it gave her special insight into anything at all. That's annoying and she should stop.
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Nov 14, 2018 17:57
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Mineaiki posted:Most politicians don’t actually know that much and rely on underlings for their knowledge. She also slays lewks.
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Nov 14, 2018 17:57
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1337JiveTurkey posted:Less flippantly the purpose was to squeeze Sinema's margins on the left so that she loses the Arizona senate election. After the election they don't care although it certainly keeps you well-primed for the next thing. And voting Present leaves the GOP with neither goal, and isn't voting Yea for fascist horseshit. Keep loving that turkey. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 14, 2018 17:58
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Rigel posted:I wasn't intimately familiar with the issues debated in the AZ Senate race, but a quick google search seems to firmly suggest that you are wrong about Sinema wrt child concentration camps. She's not even in favor of holding families for very long prior to their immigration hearing. Saying we should not abolish ICE != "family separation is a good idea". Its not like ICE went wrong, Trump ordered it. She chose to use her office to publicly declare her support for ICE and that is 100% declaring her support for child concentration camps. The difference between supporting ICE and supporting child concentration camps exist completely in your head; and I'd like to see you try to argue to one of the parents of those forcefully orphaned children how supporting ICE is totally different from supporting what was done to them. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 17:59
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Mendrian posted:Whether or not we choose to condemn her is kind of moot. We don't have a long time. We don't live at the end of history. Climate change is real, accelerating, and wiping cities off the map, which is straining and further destabilizing an already-unstable system. We need action and change now, and the best way to make that happen is for you, personally, to demand more.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:00
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CascadeBeta posted:Someone posted a tweet before that the effort to derail Pelosi is from a centrist Dem coalition that wants to dump the pro-women/lgbt platforms. I can see this being true but I can also see this being someone lazily interpreting “some dems are buying into sexist attacks on pelosi and/or going along with criticism that has sexist undertones” to be the exact same thing as “some dems have an explicit anti-woman, anti-lgbt agenda.” This is a sexist society. It’s possible to support women’s rights in the legislature and still be kind of a big sexist and buy into sexist ideas.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:00
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Prester Jane posted:She chose to use her office to publicly declare her support for ICE and that is 100% declaring her support for child concentration camps. The difference between supporting ICE and supporting child concentration camps exist completely in your head This is NOT correct, at all. ICE's mission is not child concentration camps, they do a shitload of things related to immigration and the border. Just because the orange pissbaby decided to be evil and forced ICE to carry out the plan does not mean you are compelled to condemn ICE for something that Trump ordered.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:03
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Mendrian posted:I think the somewhat breathless argument is that ICE is a rogue agency that does what it wants and support for ICE is the same thing as supporting child concentration camps. https://mobile.twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1042569004169265152 ICE is a rogue agency that is currently operating child concentration camps. I know reality sucks and it's really hard to stare it in the face sometimes but you need figure out how to do it and fast. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 18:05
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Rigel posted:This is NOT correct, at all. Jesus Christ an unironic Nuremberg defense. The gently caress is wrong with you? Take 10 seconds to think about what you're saying here. Jesus.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:05
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1337JiveTurkey posted:If people are going to put themselves forward as masters of political strategy, they should at least be able to recognize a cynical ploy of a nonbinding resolution like a decent high school model parliamentarian could write. The GOP wrote it specifically to get the reaction that people are giving and it's honestly embarrassing to watch. Even through that lens, Sinema shouldn't have fallen for it, since she's the actual politician. Seriously, though, if "I support forcefully stealing children away from their families" is not the line, what is? What is the point where we can say "No, this is unacceptable, and if you do this you are not welcome in our party"? Why does it matter if the vote was only symbolic/nonbinding/whatever? If that's the criteria we're using, is there anything that is off-limits as long as it's "symbolic" or "just" for the purposes of getting elected? Is open racism acceptable? We're already excusing dogwhistle racism, since everyone knows that ICE is there to terrorize people who don't pass the paper bag test and whose ancestry may or may not be traced south of the border. Are homophobia and transphobia okay too, or would support for stuff like conversion therapy actually be disqualifying? I mean, this thread has already excused transphobia from elected Democrats, so I suppose that question is rhetorical really, but my general point stands; is there anything bad enough that a Democrat can say that would not get excused as them "playing to their base"? What about policy? From what I've seen, that doesn't actually matter either. Voting in favor of Trump's picks for different positions is apparently fine, as is opposing abortion, supporting regressive taxes and tax cuts for the wealthy, supporting cutting social services and government oversight, supporting drug laws that are used overwhelmingly for racist purposes, opposing environmental regulation, supporting Trump's immigration policy and wall, or just Trump's policy in general. Heck, people are excusing explicitly running on support for Trump and opposition to Democratic policy in general, which seems strange since opposing Trump's policy is literally what we're voting for the Democrats to do. It is the bare minimum expected of them, literally the reason given to support them no matter what else they do, and yet they don't even need to do that. Is there any way they need to actually differ from Republicans, other than not officially being called one? That's not entirely rhetorical. The old Trump thread actually had people talking about how Republican supporters voting for Roy Moore even when him being a child molester as a strength of theirs we need to emulate, and when literally "Roy Moore - D" is considered an acceptable vote, things are way, way too far gone for me. A lot of people here seem to think that defeating the Republicans requires becoming the Republicans, but if that's the case, what's the loving point? Where is the line? What, if anything, is too far for you?
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Nov 14, 2018 18:06
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Prester Jane posted:She voted to support ICE in the midst of the child separation crisis, (and I would remind you that the child concentration camps are still open and active at present). I think parts of ICE should exist, such as customs, but their immigration poo poo is out of control and is probably best to scrap altogether. Should I assume that this means I support child concentration camps in your binary world?
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Nov 14, 2018 18:07
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Rigel posted:forced ICE to carry out the plan ahahahahahahaha right
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Nov 14, 2018 18:08
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Rigel posted:This is NOT correct, at all. Boarder security is Customs and Border Protection and is an entirely separate agency. ICE checks flea markets for counterfeit handbags, harasses and brutalizes brown people inside the country, and throw toddlers into dog cages at babyjail.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:08
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https://twitter.com/pdmcleod/status/1062754186721402880?s=19 Shocking i know
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Nov 14, 2018 18:09
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Doctor Butts posted:I think parts of ICE should exist, such as customs, but their immigration poo poo is out of control and is probably best to scrap altogether. You realize we had customs enforcement before ICE ever existed, right?
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Nov 14, 2018 18:09
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Did Trump also go in there and personally puppeteer those innocent ICE agents into abusing kids and withholding medicine
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Nov 14, 2018 18:10
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Prester Jane posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1042569004169265152 Great. Then condemn Trump and to a lesser extent the cabinet member who agreed with his order. If a future president wants to appoint some kind of commission to review the records of ICE employees and fire anyone who was incompetent and/or unempathetic, fine. 20,000 people work for ICE all over the country, that hypothetical review is not going to purge a lot of them. We are going to need ICE, or if we think that arbitrary acronym is now poisoned, then some replacement organization that does a lot of what ICE did prior to 2016.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:10
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WampaLord posted:You realize we had customs enforcement before ICE ever existed, right? No, customs was invented in 2003, as were national borders.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:10
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Doctor Butts posted:I think parts of ICE should exist, such as customs, but their immigration poo poo is out of control and is probably best to scrap altogether. It would be a trivial matter to hand those functions off to another government agency. ICE is a post 9/11 creation, the country never needed the organization and it's been nothing but fascist scum since its creation. The portions of that are actually doing productive work can be absorbed by other agencies without any significant disruption.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:11
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Rigel posted:Great. Then condemn Trump and to a lesser extent the cabinet member who agreed with his order. We had those before ICE. ICE isn't old enough to vote. We don't need ICE.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:12
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Setting up the false dichotomy that Dems are either ideologically pure or literally fascists is dumb as hell. Ranting about how Sinema is a wicked fascist because of one vote both dilutes the meaning of fascism and distracts from the actual evil poo poo the GOP is doing. That doesn't mean Sinema shouldn't be challenged on her vote and pushed left but this is basically a purestrain example of how some leftists hate liberals more than the right. Someone please link the duck cartoon parody where he's just yelling liberals liberals LIBERALS
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Nov 14, 2018 18:12
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Prester Jane posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1042569004169265152 ironically, this piece is about the Health and Human Services Department and its inability to find kids that have already been placed with sponsors (in many cases, because those sponsors are family members who potentially have immigration problems themselves, and sure as poo poo aren't going to call HHS back in this political climate) so your example doesn't really show anything about ICE or anything about child concentration camps
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Nov 14, 2018 18:12
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Rigel posted:Great. Then condemn Trump and to a lesser extent the cabinet member who agreed with his order. That's what the Abolish ICE stuff would amount to. The agency name would be retired and its responsibilities would be reshuffled. Hopefully they'd also have their mission reinterpreted to be less, uh, gestapo-y?
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Nov 14, 2018 18:13
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Will nobody think of the poor personnel at ICE who aren't monsters harassing minorities and treating humans worse than cattle? There's lots of people in ICE that file paperwork, arrange meetings and manage payroll for the monsters harassing minorities and treating humans worse than cattle. Patriots, every last one 
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Nov 14, 2018 18:13
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Rigel posted:This is NOT correct, at all. Yeah as much as I'm finding the Sinema circle jerk annoying and repetitive, this isn't correct. ICE was born from the same post-9/11 insanity that created the Dept of Homeland Security and was expressly created with a "Gotta catch Terrists" mindset that granted it broad sweeping powers to basically do what they're doing now, stop and kidnap people in the streets for being undesirables. Hiding behind "Well we need SOME customs enforcement" is pretty historically myopic and I'm guessing in your case ignorant in light of why we find ourselves where we do wrt: ICE and Kiddie Camps and the like. It was not always this way and has only been this way since post-9/11, so not that long. Stop giving the architects and footsoldiers of the fash a pass. BTW the fash counts on you not realizing how new ICE is and seems content to basically somehow hide behind the idea that we're stuck needing their services as an ensconced gov't agency even though they're barely old enough to drive or vote (were they a human being) as an actual thing. VH4Ever fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 18:13
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Roland Jones posted:We had those before ICE. ICE isn't old enough to vote. We don't need ICE. Like I said, if you think the arbitrary acronym is poisoned and you want to go
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Nov 14, 2018 18:14
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Pellisworth posted:Setting up the false dichotomy that Dems are either ideologically pure or literally fascists is dumb as hell. So your answer is there is no line, gotcha.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:15
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Rigel posted:Great. Then condemn Trump and to a lesser extent the cabinet member who agreed with his order. You're trolling me with this unironic Nuremberg defense poo poo, right? (AlsoICE is only like 15 years old as an agency and the country got by just fine without it for the vast majority of its history.) "Look fellas no one here disagrees that we need the Stormtroopers and no one here disagrees that the President ordering the Stormtroopers to destroy families is a bad thing, but it's really taking things too far to condemn the Stormtroopers and declare that their entire organization should be broken up. They are just following orders after all and there are so many of them, how could we possibly condemn so many people for just following orders?"
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Nov 14, 2018 18:15
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Can FOIA requests be used to discover fudges these numbers into their Nazi codes?
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Nov 14, 2018 18:16
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Pellisworth posted:Setting up the false dichotomy that Dems are either ideologically pure or literally fascists is dumb as hell. I don't know...I think celebrating John Mccain and supporting ICE makes you a pretty bad politician, let alone a bad Democrat???
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Nov 14, 2018 18:16
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Petr posted:The people who marched in Charlottesville couldn't elect a dogcatcher. They don't even have enough people to pull off another Charlottesville anymore. Mike Huckabee was governor of Arkansas. Holocaust-denying open Neo-Nazi Arthur King received more than 56,000 votes and his opponent was an anti-choice conservative Democrat, when the Nazi was never going to win. There was no excuse but Republicans still came out for the Nazi. This was also the first time Steve King faced a competitive election. yronic heroism posted:Literally having 2/3s majorities didn’t hurt either I bet. Red-baiting, segregationist, pro-lynching Dixiecrats.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:17
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Prester Jane posted:ICE is a rogue agency that is currently operating child concentration camps. I know reality sucks and it's really hard to stare it in the face sometimes but you need figure out how to do it and fast. i'm sorry i also forgot to mention: HHS is operating the camps, not ICE i mean gently caress all of these people, but let's at least get straight which agencies are doing which atrocities
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Nov 14, 2018 18:17
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eke out posted:ironically, this piece is about the Health and Human Services Department and its inability to find kids that have already been placed with sponsors (in many cases, because those sponsors are family members who potentially have immigration problems themselves, and sure as poo poo aren't going to call HHS back in this political climate) How weird that you overlooked the government agency referencing the necessity of building a future for white children in its report about losing exactly 1488 kids.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:17
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lol steve bannon is so loving dumb.quote:“We’re a tributary state to China, right? We’re the Jamestown to their Great Britain,” the former White House strategist Steve Bannon, who remains close to Navarro, told me. “We’re finally engaged in the economic war that they’ve had against us for the last 25 years.” https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/peter-navarro-trump-trade/573913/
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Nov 14, 2018 18:18
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I thought my favorite disingenuous ICE defense was "well what about [minor essential task they currently perform], no other agency could possibly do this!" but now it's "actually everything bad ICE has ever done was Trump personally forcing those innocent babes to do it against their will, even the evil things they did under Obama and Bush: time-travelling Trump"
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Nov 14, 2018 18:18
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Wicked Them Beats posted:That's what the Abolish ICE stuff would amount to. The agency name would be retired and its responsibilities would be reshuffled. Hopefully they'd also have their mission reinterpreted to be less, uh, gestapo-y? You guys keep overcomplicating this and it strikes me that I might be older than the lot of you and that might be why this historical confusion/myopia annoys me so much. Want a good starting point that's concrete as hell? Start with undoing all the post-9/11 changes to how we do immigration and customs stuff. Go from there. You're welcome.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:18
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every day i yell into the void 'stop posting like poo poo' and every day i look into this thread in horror like it's a bathroom at a jack-in-the-box after an e.coli outbreak
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Nov 14, 2018 18:19
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Prester Jane posted:How weird that you overlooked the government agency referencing the necessity of building a future for white children in its report about losing exactly 1488 kids. PJ, although you were in the thread with me, I understand if you forgot us all extensively posting about them doing the nazi number - suffice to say, we did back when it was in the news. Here I was responding to your multiple incorrect factual assertions, which you seem to be ignoring.
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Nov 14, 2018 18:19
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