Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

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hailthefish: Oct 24, 2010

Pedestrian Xing posted:

Suffocation as a Service

# ? Nov 14, 2018 22:16

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# ? May 26, 2024 06:25

FlapYoJacks: Feb 12, 2009

Time for SPRING PLANNING BOYS

I WFH so I have the essentials:

Left over Enchiladas from the wife.
Whisky
A mute switch

# ? Nov 14, 2018 22:22

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
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Pedestrian Xing posted:

Suffocation as a Service

# ? Nov 14, 2018 22:32

ChickenWing: Jul 22, 2010

Pedestrian Xing posted:

Suffocation as a Service

# ? Nov 14, 2018 22:34

Xik: Mar 10, 2011; Dinosaur Gum

Pedestrian Xing posted:

Suffocation as a Service

# ? Nov 14, 2018 22:38

My Rhythmic Crotch: Jan 13, 2011

this thread always gets really weird

# ? Nov 15, 2018 01:19

Vanadium: Jan 8, 2005

Can someone sell me on RSpec-like testing where you don't write tests with asserts, you write specifications of behaviors and try to make everything sound like an English sentence by doing lots of method chaining? It looks really goofy and distracting to me but it's apparently what everyone does in Ruby?

# ? Nov 15, 2018 01:38

Bruegels Fuckbooks: Sep 14, 2004; Now, listen - I know the two of you are very different from each other in a lot of ways, but you have to understand that as far as Grandpa's concerned, you're both pieces of shit! Yeah. I can prove it mathematically.

Vanadium posted:

Can someone sell me on RSpec-like testing where you don't write tests with asserts, you write specifications of behaviors and try to make everything sound like an English sentence by doing lots of method chaining? It looks really goofy and distracting to me but it's apparently what everyone does in Ruby?

ruby developers like the smell of their own farts.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 01:40

smackfu: Jun 7, 2004

Looks pretty similar to JavaScript karma/jest testing with describe blocks and it cases. It�s a pretty decent way to organize tests. I especially miss nested setup blocks when going back to JUnit.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 01:52

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

I like the arbitrary nesting, and annotating every nesting layer and every test with natural language is a good way to require yourself to come up with a clear justification for what you're writing.

I also prefer the "expect"-style assertion syntax to the "assert"-style, because it's easier to see at a glance which value is the expected and which is the actual.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 02:03

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

Arbitrary nesting you say? Well I have something for you :v:

https://github.com/catchorg/Catch2/blob/master/docs/tutorial.md#test-cases-and-sections

# ? Nov 15, 2018 09:11

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

Vanadium posted:

Can someone sell me on RSpec-like testing where you don't write tests with asserts, you write specifications of behaviors and try to make everything sound like an English sentence by doing lots of method chaining? It looks really goofy and distracting to me but it's apparently what everyone does in Ruby?

Pester (for PowerShell) is the same way. I like it just because writing out a plain-english description of what my test case is testing makes me really think about the correct behavior AND the incorrect behavior, leading to additional useful tests. Nothing stopping you from writing your test names out in a more terse way.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 11:27

Mniot: May 22, 2003; Not the one you know

New Yorp New Yorp posted:

Pester (for PowerShell) is the same way. I like it just because writing out a plain-english description of what my test case is testing makes me really think about the correct behavior AND the incorrect behavior, leading to additional useful tests. Nothing stopping you from writing your test names out in a more terse way.

code:

RSpec.describe "dscrb_1" do
  context "ctx_1" do
    it "tst_1" do
      expect(eval(dscrb_1_ctx_1_tst_1.tst)).to eq(dscrb_1_ctx_1_tst_1.res)
    end
    it "tst_2" do
      expect(eval(dscrb_1_ctx_1_tst_2.tst)).to eq(dscrb_1_ctx_1_tst_2.res)
    end
  end
end

(I'm working with someone who keeps naming test functions like this. At least he doesn't get upset when I tell him to change them...)

# ? Nov 15, 2018 13:36

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

What�s a good way to get involved with new stacks, languages, and projects at work? I�ve been working in Rails for a few years now, and NGL I�m a bit sick of it - I�d love to branch out into other stuff used around the company like Go. Or should I be focusing on what�s most important to work on up front? I just don�t wanna get pidgeonholed into Rails for the rest of my career.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 19:22

TheCog: Jul 30, 2012; I AM ZEPA AND I CLAIM THESE LANDS BY RIGHT OF CONQUEST

Pollyanna posted:

What�s a good way to get involved with new stacks, languages, and projects at work? I�ve been working in Rails for a few years now, and NGL I�m a bit sick of it - I�d love to branch out into other stuff used around the company like Go. Or should I be focusing on what�s most important to work on up front? I just don�t wanna get pidgeonholed into Rails for the rest of my career.

Talk to your manager. I told my boss "hey I think terraform is neat, can I get terraform cards?" and next thing I knew I was neck deep in terraform work.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 19:30

Macichne Leainig: Jul 26, 2012; by VG

TheCog posted:

Talk to your manager. I told my boss "hey I think terraform is neat, can I get terraform cards?" and next thing I knew I was neck deep in terraform work.

Absolutely this. A few months ago I told my manager that I really enjoy API work and working with our GraphQL API and now I get to focus on GraphQL stuff.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 19:44

Volguus: Mar 3, 2009

Pollyanna posted:

What�s a good way to get involved with new stacks, languages, and projects at work? I�ve been working in Rails for a few years now, and NGL I�m a bit sick of it - I�d love to branch out into other stuff used around the company like Go. Or should I be focusing on what�s most important to work on up front? I just don�t wanna get pidgeonholed into Rails for the rest of my career.

Before you ask the manager, play with the technology at home, see how you like it. Make a few personal projects.

# ? Nov 15, 2018 20:43

geeves: Sep 16, 2004

smackfu posted:

Looks pretty similar to JavaScript karma/jest testing with describe blocks and it cases. It�s a pretty decent way to organize tests. I especially miss nested setup blocks when going back to JUnit.

AssertJ might be more up your alley. http://joel-costigliola.github.io/assertj/

Can write multiple tests in each test method and all of them will run regardless if one in the middle fails.

# ? Nov 16, 2018 03:05

raminasi: Jan 25, 2005; a last drink with no ice

Volguus posted:

Before you ask the manager, play with the technology at home, see how you like it. Make a few personal projects.

Alternatively: don�t do this, do the exploratory stuff on company time instead of training yourself for free in your spare time. If the company will benefit, the company should be investing.

# ? Nov 17, 2018 17:45

Volguus: Mar 3, 2009

raminasi posted:

Alternatively: don�t do this, do the exploratory stuff on company time instead of training yourself for free in your spare time. If the company will benefit, the company should be investing.

Training yourself is an investment in yourself first and foremost. Regardless in what exactly you're training in.

However, my suggestion was mainly to see if you don't really hate the language/ ecosystem.
But if you can get the company to pay, sure by all means, but don't get hung up on it.

# ? Nov 17, 2018 19:19

Slimy Hog: Apr 22, 2008

Volguus posted:

Training yourself is an investment in yourself first and foremost. Regardless in what exactly you're training in.

However, my suggestion was mainly to see if you don't really hate the language/ ecosystem.
But if you can get the company to pay, sure by all means, but don't get hung up on it.

I see what you mean by this, but many of us have children and care more about spending time with them than building some random project in our spare time. I try to find a few hours a week to spend on professional development while I'm at work.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 17:44

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

A friend told me his job hired a new software developer, and after a few days they realized he had completely lied about his background and fired him. Like, how did he expect to do the job if he had no idea what to do?

# ? Nov 19, 2018 18:02

poemdexter: Feb 18, 2005; Hooray Indie Games!; College Slice

SardonicTyrant posted:

A friend told me his job hired a new software developer, and after a few days they realized he had completely lied about his background and fired him. Like, how did he expect to do the job if he had no idea what to do?

I know of at least one company where if he was hired there, it would be at least a year before they realized he couldn't write code and they still would have a hard time firing him because that company never lets anyone go.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 18:08

Keetron: Sep 26, 2008; Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

I pretty much lied my way into my first coding job but can learn new stuff super fast so they never really found out. Fake it till you make it.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 18:20

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Keetron posted:

I pretty much lied my way into my first coding job but can learn new stuff super fast so they never really found out. Fake it till you make it.

same but "having ever used Microsoft Office" was my lie

# ? Nov 19, 2018 18:21

taqueso: Mar 8, 2004

SardonicTyrant posted:

A friend told me his job hired a new software developer, and after a few days they realized he had completely lied about his background and fired him. Like, how did he expect to do the job if he had no idea what to do?

Haven't you seen Trading Places?

# ? Nov 19, 2018 18:23

spiritual bypass: Feb 19, 2008; Grimey Drawer

SardonicTyrant posted:

A friend told me his job hired a new software developer, and after a few days they realized he had completely lied about his background and fired him. Like, how did he expect to do the job if he had no idea what to do?

This comes up periodically in here. So many interviewees can't do FizzBuzz. What can we suppose about them except that they are lying about their background?

# ? Nov 19, 2018 18:44

lifg: Dec 4, 2000; <this tag left blank>; Muldoon

SardonicTyrant posted:

A friend told me his job hired a new software developer, and after a few days they realized he had completely lied about his background and fired him. Like, how did he expect to do the job if he had no idea what to do?

More importantly, how did your job fire someone who deserves to be fired in only a few days?

# ? Nov 19, 2018 19:01

Slimy Hog: Apr 22, 2008

poemdexter posted:

I know of at least one company where if he was hired there, it would be at least a year before they realized he couldn't write code and they still would have a hard time firing him because that company never lets anyone go.

rt4 posted:

This comes up periodically in here. So many interviewees can't do FizzBuzz. What can we suppose about them except that they are lying about their background?

I kinda get the idea if you're just lying about knowing a technology and hope you can ramp up before anyone can notice, but if you can't solve fizzbuzz..... I don't see how you can just learn on the job.

All this being said, don't lie about what you know.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 19:02

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

rt4 posted:

This comes up periodically in here. So many interviewees can't do FizzBuzz. What can we suppose about them except that they are lying about their background?

They aren't lying. They've probably been employed in jobs where they could write barely-functional copy/paste code and escape being detected. They probably don't even know they're bad/incompetent.

It's like if you were interviewing a carpenter and they could talk all about carpentry techniques, styles of tables that they've worked on, the history of tables, and mentioned all the carpentry blogs they read, you'd probably think "this person knows a lot about building tables". And it's true, they do know a lot about building tables! But that doesn't mean that they have the practical, hands-on experience necessary to build good tables.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 19:06

Volguus: Mar 3, 2009

New Yorp New Yorp posted:

They aren't lying. They've probably been employed in jobs where they could write barely-functional copy/paste code and escape being detected. They probably don't even know they're bad/incompetent.

It's like if you were interviewing a carpenter and they could talk all about carpentry techniques, styles of tables that they've worked on, the history of tables, and mentioned all the carpentry blogs they read, you'd probably think "this person knows a lot about building tables". And it's true, they do know a lot about building tables! But that doesn't mean that they have the practical, hands-on experience necessary to build good tables.

If I was interviewing the carpenter, I would obviously be misled about his abilities since I have no knowledge whatsoever about carpentering. I would definitely mistake his blog reading skill with actual knowledge. Which is what's happening in this instance as well: people with no software engineering knowledge (that is, zero, nada. They're barely able to turn on the computer) have interviewed this person and deemed him/her good enough.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 19:22

Macichne Leainig: Jul 26, 2012; by VG

We've definitely had a few candidates that flew through the interview process and and even passed the technical interview, and then sucked completely as a developer. I.E., after 5 months of working for us, were still sending out emails (to the entire development team, including managers and architecture) asking how to install our software.

It's a loving MSI. They couldn't install an MSI!

Yet he still knew quite a few C# concepts and could do FizzBuzz easily. I was shocked. But it happens, and after a few of those types of emails he went out the door pretty quick.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 20:11

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

rt4 posted:

This comes up periodically in here. So many interviewees can't do FizzBuzz. What can we suppose about them except that they are lying about their background?

Personally I invented my own language, wrote a compiler for it, wrote FizzBuzz in it as one of the regression tests and put it on Github :sun:

# ? Nov 19, 2018 20:22

Vulture Culture: Jul 14, 2003; I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Is anyone responsible for user interviews and user experience testing that I could borrow for a 15-minute conversation? I'm kicking off a program internally and looking to learn from others' experiences.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 21:10

poemdexter: Feb 18, 2005; Hooray Indie Games!; College Slice

Slimy Hog posted:

All this being said, don't lie about what you know.

Actually don't like about what you don't know.

I will never tell an employer I know how to do Crystal Reports ever.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 21:16

Volmarias: Dec 31, 2002; EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

SardonicTyrant posted:

A friend told me his job hired a new software developer, and after a few days they realized he had completely lied about his background and fired him. Like, how did he expect to do the job if he had no idea what to do?

Unskilled and Unaware of it, AKA the Dunning Kruger effect.

# ? Nov 19, 2018 22:06

BaronVonVaderham: Jul 31, 2011; All hail the queen!

Keetron posted:

I pretty much lied my way into my first coding job but can learn new stuff super fast so they never really found out. Fake it till you make it.

I lied my way into my first programming job. I had dicked around with C++ in high school, and then I had barely fumbled my way through writing some simulations and such in the course of my research in undergrad and grad school, but looking back I had no idea what I was doing.

NO ONE should have ever hired me, but I lucked out having an eerily similar educational background and interests as the owner, so he gave me a chance I didn't deserve. In my case it was "I've been unemployed for 6 months and am already on food stamps and poo poo, if I don't land this position I have nothing left to sell to make rent....gently caress it, even if I get caught I'll get a couple paychecks to buy time for other apps to process." I get it, sometimes you're desperate enough to lie your way in over your head.

The difference between me and that guy is I knew I lied my rear end off and didn't want to go back to being on food stamps (I got laid off as a math teacher before that, because Florida), so I worked my rear end off over my first year and learned my poo poo. I put in long hours to fumble my way through work projects if I struggled with them, and in what few off hours I had I got a bunch of books and watched tutorial videos. Since my degrees are in physics, I at least had the mathematical and analytical tools to pick things up quickly. I did and now I've moved up in the world over 5 years to a senior level dev role at a great company :dance:

# ? Nov 19, 2018 23:47

Carbon dioxide: Oct 9, 2012

BaronVonVaderham posted:

I lied my way into my first programming job. I had dicked around with C++ in high school, and then I had barely fumbled my way through writing some simulations and such in the course of my research in undergrad and grad school, but looking back I had no idea what I was doing.

NO ONE should have ever hired me, but I lucked out having an eerily similar educational background and interests as the owner, so he gave me a chance I didn't deserve. In my case it was "I've been unemployed for 6 months and am already on food stamps and poo poo, if I don't land this position I have nothing left to sell to make rent....gently caress it, even if I get caught I'll get a couple paychecks to buy time for other apps to process." I get it, sometimes you're desperate enough to lie your way in over your head.

The difference between me and that guy is I knew I lied my rear end off and didn't want to go back to being on food stamps (I got laid off as a math teacher before that, because Florida), so I worked my rear end off over my first year and learned my poo poo. I put in long hours to fumble my way through work projects if I struggled with them, and in what few off hours I had I got a bunch of books and watched tutorial videos. Since my degrees are in physics, I at least had the mathematical and analytical tools to pick things up quickly. I did and now I've moved up in the world over 5 years to a senior level dev role at a great company .

It's absolutely crazy that this kind of bullshit is necessary in your country.

I was in a somewhat similar position. Not quite as desperate, but yeah, unable to find a job despite my degrees.

So I applied for a retraining course thing from a local college. To get in, I needed to:
- show I had some college degree (they didn't care at all which one it was, all they needed to know if you had the general knowledge you need to finish college)
- do some online intelligence test (it was like an IQ test but no IQ number came out. Instead they apparently compared the results to all students at that college and you needed to perform at or above that average)
- show up to some event where there were a bunch of IT employers. You basically had to convince at least one of them that you could successfully finish the 1-year course and sign a contract that they would hire you immediately afterwards. They knew ahead of time that you weren't a software developer yet making those interviews rather unusual. But it worked out.

This meant that the costs were mostly split half/half between the college (using a government grant that is intended to help unemployed people off the street) and the IT employer you signed the contract with. If you dropped out, the college would reimburse the IT employer so the employer's risks were very low. I had to pay only a leftover 1000 eur which was intended "to show I was serious".

Once the course got going and it turned out to be a success, social services got actively engaged in making sure that students who needed it would be able to make ends meet even if they didn't have time to keep a job search up anymore (constantly searching for jobs is normally a requirement for getting unemployment benefits here).

Anyway, halfway in (after 6 months), the course shifted gears to 4 workdays at the employer and 1 day of coursework per week, and those 4 workdays were paid, so after that first period I started making actual money and since then I've been able to build up a rather successful career in software development.

# ? Nov 20, 2018 08:15

Lumpy: Apr 26, 2002; La! La! La! Laaaa!; College Slice

Carbon dioxide posted:

It's absolutely crazy that this kind of bullshit is necessary in your country.

I was in a somewhat similar position. Not quite as desperate, but yeah, unable to find a job despite my degrees.

So I applied for a retraining course thing from a local college. To get in, I needed to:
- show I had some college degree (they didn't care at all which one it was, all they needed to know if you had the general knowledge you need to finish college)
- do some online intelligence test (it was like an IQ test but no IQ number came out. Instead they apparently compared the results to all students at that college and you needed to perform at or above that average)
- show up to some event where there were a bunch of IT employers. You basically had to convince at least one of them that you could successfully finish the 1-year course and sign a contract that they would hire you immediately afterwards. They knew ahead of time that you weren't a software developer yet making those interviews rather unusual. But it worked out.

This meant that the costs were mostly split half/half between the college (using a government grant that is intended to help unemployed people off the street) and the IT employer you signed the contract with. If you dropped out, the college would reimburse the IT employer so the employer's risks were very low. I had to pay only a leftover 1000 eur which was intended "to show I was serious".

Once the course got going and it turned out to be a success, social services got actively engaged in making sure that students who needed it would be able to make ends meet even if they didn't have time to keep a job search up anymore (constantly searching for jobs is normally a requirement for getting unemployment benefits here).

Anyway, halfway in (after 6 months), the course shifted gears to 4 workdays at the employer and 1 day of coursework per week, and those 4 workdays were paid, so after that first period I started making actual money and since then I've been able to build up a rather successful career in software development.

How can you live with yourself knowing you didn't pull yourself up by your bootstraps!? The horror! This is why we have to fight the evils of what Americans confuse for socialism!

:cry:

# ? Nov 20, 2018 15:09

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# ? May 26, 2024 06:25

BaronVonVaderham: Jul 31, 2011; All hail the queen!

Carbon dioxide posted:

It's absolutely crazy that this kind of bullshit is necessary in your country.

One of the biggest reasons I work so hard today: I never, ever want to lose working remote. Not only is it the greatest perk any job can have, but it makes the prospect of moving next year a lot less horrifying.

Tying that into what I quoted above, we've been heavily researching immigration procedures for a few countries to gtfo before we go full on Handmaid's Tale over here. We're just waiting on my girlfriend to finish her PhD in the spring and we'll see where she gets offers, get married, and flee; I can just take my job with us. But it turns out both of our educations and job fields qualify us as the highest possible tier candidates for expedited entry almost anywhere. At minimum we're getting the hell out of Florida and fleeing to a blue state, but we're really leaning toward going whole hog and moving to Canada, Denmark, Germany, etc.

# ? Nov 20, 2018 17:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

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