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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The PelosiBad Chat never seems to manage to suggest any better alternative candidate Can't someone criticize her leadership without an immediate alternative? Demanding immediate solutions to intracted problems is usually just a technique to shut down legitimate concerns. I don't have a way to fix gerrymandering today, but I'm still going to say it is bad. I don't have a way to end defense funding of lovely Democrats, but I'm still going to say it is bad. Pelosi's bad leadership is part of why there isn't a successor in the wings, why there are more conservative Democrats opposed to her (she helped them win their primaries), and why all the good candidates are refusing to run.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:23
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Pelosi's the best we got. Turns out America has a shortage of good politicians! Who knew?
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Trabisnikof posted:Pelosi's bad leadership is part of why there isn't a successor in the wings, why there are more conservative Democrats opposed to her (she helped them win their primaries), and why all the good candidates are refusing to run. i'm starting to think the dems might actually be good and it's just that damned lady that's ruining everything!
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Nov 16, 2018 20:24
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Holy poo poo that's creepy as gently caress. Also is anyone else disturbed that Trump hasn't tweeted in almost 24 hours after unleashing his last storm?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:25
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eke out posted:i don't disagree with any of this - just making the point that the actual amount of process required to take away press passes is minimal. i think the judge this morning left it open to the point that they could potentially even do it without additional rulemaking, though I could def be wrong on that point. Even if thats right, and I'm not sure it is, its very easy to make a long list of new rules and if you do that you are golden with the courts at least wrt the 5th amendment.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:25
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Trabisnikof posted:Rather than just dismissing that post as "dems bad" maybe consider then that if Pelosi is refusing to step down and let them take over, that in itself could be a bad leadership choice by Pelosi. personally i'm waiting to see how the non-speaker elections and appointments fall out i'm liking what i'm hearing about the committees, and if we get Good Dems for majority leader and/or whip (ideally both), imo that would signify a coming changing of the guard that Pelosi is eminently equipped to prepare them for whereas if things are more stacked with Bad Dems, maybe that's not a great sign
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Nov 16, 2018 20:25
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Trabisnikof posted:Pelosi's bad leadership is part of why there isn't a successor in the wings, why there are more conservative Democrats opposed to her (she helped them win their primaries), and why all the good candidates are refusing to run. i don't like pelosi that much but there is such a thing as giving her too much credit over the state of the house
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Nov 16, 2018 20:25
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Pfffft I ASSUME he got the normal untrue sexual assault allegations and character smears that ALL Republican candidates get :eyeroll: ? https://twitter.com/TheLapsedJedi/status/1063503088802246656
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Nov 16, 2018 20:26
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Skex posted:The problem with the left being on this whole "Pelosi bad need new blood" train for the speakership is that it has emboldened the Blue Dogs by allowing them to latch onto that mood and hijack the energy and sentiment. I don't really mind Pelosi in the position, but this is just a fundamentally bad take. Refusing to criticize Dems from the left because it gives an opening for others to criticize them from the right is a moronic losing strategy. In fact, criticizing Pelosi from the left is almost certainly what is [optimistically: emboldening her to; pessimistically: scaring her to] promise greater power to progressive members of the party.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:26
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't really mind Pelosi in the position, but this is just a fundamentally bad take. Refusing to criticize Dems from the left because it gives an opening for others to criticize them from the right is a moronic losing strategy. In fact, criticizing Pelosi from the left is almost certainly what is [optimistically: emboldening her to; pessimistically: scaring her to] promise greater power to progressive members of the party. The problem is progressives aren't ready to jump on and grab the speakership. Blue dogs are.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:29
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The PelosiBad Chat never seems to manage to suggest any better alternative candidate It seems odd to me that there are no willing alternatives. Is it just that everyone has presidential ambitions and know the position will essentially kill that? Are they scared of retribution? Is there just no one else that wants to lead? I have a hard time believing Pelosi is the best we've got when she is the only one that we've had in the last 2 decades. What are we even comparing her to at this point?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:29
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eke out posted:i'm starting to think the dems might actually be good and it's just that damned lady that's ruining everything! Sure you can try out that bad faith argument, but it doesn't really make much sense if you have more than the simplest of worldviews. Pelosi, and Schumer, both have political power and particularly power over their own caucus. They've used that power to support more conservative Democrats in their primaries and they've used that power to solidify their own position and the positions of their closest allies. That's left little room for new leadership as the decades have drawn on, particularly new leaders on the left. That's not the only thing plaguing Democrats, but it is certainly one of the problems. And we won't fix this problem, the lack of a cadre of progressive leaders in congress, until we recognize the causes. Those causes include Pelosi's long tenure that has left House Democratic Leadership without many chances for new leadership to rise up as the old guard are still waiting for her to die and for them to get their turn. Its not the only cause but its certainly one worth discussing.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:31
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:It seems odd to me that there are no willing alternatives. Is it just that everyone has presidential ambitions and know the position will essentially kill that? Are they scared of retribution? Is there just no one else that wants to lead? imo a much simpler answer is that if conservatives are voting against Pelosi, they're definitely not voting for people to Pelosi's left. no one else can get to 218 either, so why would they stick their neck out and oppose the person most likely to win
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Nov 16, 2018 20:32
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:I have a hard time believing Pelosi is the best we've got when she is the only one that we've had in the last 2 decades. What are we even comparing her to at this point?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:32
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:It seems odd to me that there are no willing alternatives. Is it just that everyone has presidential ambitions and know the position will essentially kill that? Are they scared of retribution? Is there just no one else that wants to lead? It is probably not easy to have everyone from every angle hate you as much as our society hates Pelosi Politicians are often evil and cruel, but they are usually still people who don't like it when people don't like them. It's why shouting at them in public is effective. But signing up to be shouted at in every room you're in for the rest of your career is probably a tall ask
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Nov 16, 2018 20:33
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theflyingorc posted:The people who actually work with her think she's amazingly good at her job Clearly I have a better read on the situation, a random guy on the internet.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:35
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Trabisnikof posted:Can't someone criticize her leadership without an immediate alternative? Demanding immediate solutions to intracted problems is usually just a technique to shut down legitimate concerns. Sure, I'm just not sure what sort of response you want to generate there. Like, go for it, she's bad. Pretty much everyone is horrible all the time in different ways. I mean, at least with gerrymandering we can like debate what the best solutions are (increased size of the House? mathematically minimize wasted votes? nonpartisan commissions? Thermidor II: The Return to Terror?). I'm not sure what exactly is gained from pages of PelosiBad Chat other than venting. Like, seriously, almost everyone is horrible almost all the time. That's practically axiomatic these days. Even AOC would be a bad Speaker candidate right now because she's ineligible for President and we want someone eligible in that slot given Trump and Pence. I don't really see where the Pelosi Bad chat is trying to go. It doesn't seem like "debate" or "discussion," more like . . . venting. I don't really disagree with it I'm just not sure what the point is.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:36
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Shifty Pony posted:I think he's just an absolute poo poo-smear of a human who recently figured out he can be himself with no repercussions. Bofa these things can be true. And bad like BOFA HIS NUTS! yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Nov 16, 2018 |
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Nov 16, 2018 20:36
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:It seems odd to me that there are no willing alternatives. Is it just that everyone has presidential ambitions and know the position will essentially kill that? Are they scared of retribution? Is there just no one else that wants to lead? A number of possible new leadership candidates left the house. Xavier Beccera left to become California’s attorney general and Chris van Hollen became a senator for Maryland for example.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:36
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theflyingorc posted:The people who actually work with her think she's amazingly good at her job Do you think Pelosi would still give Lee the #2 spot if Lee announced she would be willing to be Speaker?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:36
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i'm liking what i'm hearing about the committees, and if we get Good Dems for majority leader and/or whip (ideally both), imo that would signify a coming changing of the guard that Pelosi is eminently equipped to prepare them for
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Nov 16, 2018 20:37
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Trabisnikof posted:Do you think Pelosi would still give Lee the #2 spot if Lee announced she would be willing to be Speaker? holy poo poo i do not care MSDOS KAPITAL posted:who immediately did everything she could to distance herself and her party from the youngest woman ever elected to Congress Are you talking about the letter where she said goodbye to her longtime friend and colleague
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Nov 16, 2018 20:39
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CascadeBeta posted:The problem is progressives aren't ready to jump on and grab the speakership. Blue dogs are. Which is why I don't mind her in the position. It doesn't absolve her of criticism, even if there's no credible replacement stepping up.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:40
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Tibalt posted:Yeah, but they're trained professionals with a team of staffers who entire livelihoods depend on currently judging this situation while having information that's not publicly available. Ah the "mysterious ways" solution to the problem of evil. Yes supporting anti-gay bigots in primaries for safe blue seats makes me uncomfortable, but it must be because I am merely a thread in a great tapestry whose design I can't comprehend. Wingtips have a really nice taste, really good shoe leather
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Nov 16, 2018 20:40
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:I have a hard time believing Pelosi is the best we've got when she is the only one that we've had in the last 2 decades. What are we even comparing her to at this point? You never heard of Dick Gephardt?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:41
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Pelosi, who went out of her way to help a conservative Democrat (who is now voting against her for speaker) fend off a primary challenge from the left, when she could have at least just remained neutral, and who immediately did everything she could to distance herself and her party from the youngest woman ever elected to Congress - a woman who is now widely regarded as the future of the party - is not, in any sense: ideologically, politically, pragmatically, equipped or even inclined to prepare real progressives in the House for anything. unless Nancy Pelosi immediately goes into political exile, i will never stop posting
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Nov 16, 2018 20:41
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Sure, I'm just not sure what sort of response you want to generate there. Like, go for it, she's bad. Pretty much everyone is horrible all the time in different ways. Its a debate because some posters think Pelosi isn't progressive enough while others think she's the most amazing candidate for the job and shouldn't be questioned. That seems to be the way the conversation is flowing. Like this kind of analysis of posting, "what's your endgame" would come to equally ambiguous results if applied to either side of the debate. theflyingorc posted:holy poo poo i do not care Then why post that other Reps "think she's amazingly good at her job" if you're unwilling to entertain the idea that maybe political power has something to do with their support for Pelosi? Why even post your post the first time if you're just going to "I don't care" to people that reply to you and disagree?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:41
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plogo posted:A number of possible new leadership candidates left the house. Xavier Beccera left to become California’s attorney general and Chris van Hollen became a senator for Maryland for example. Aww, van Hollen probably would've been good. I've been pretty happy with him as a senator so far, even if it's still a little weird not seeing Barbara Mikulski's name on the ballot.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:41
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VitalSigns posted:Wingtips have a really nice taste, really good show leather Trabisnikof posted:Then why post that other Reps "think she's amazingly good at her job" if you're unwilling to entertain the idea that maybe political power has something to do with their support for Pelosi?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:41
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There are posters in this thread... in 2018... who are seriously arguing that republicans won't do something (in the future when the have power) because the "optics would be so bad tho". Gang Guys Goons. Please stop thinking, whispering, uttering this inanity before you get us all killed.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:43
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lol look at this joke https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1063517544131280898 if your lawyer can't evade a subpoena without being held in contempt for one whole month till these people are out of power, you've already lost
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Nov 16, 2018 20:43
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:and who immediately did everything she could to distance herself and her party from the youngest woman ever elected to Congress - a woman who is now widely regarded as the future of the party AOC showing up in her office was a pre-cleared photo op, and both expressed their support for the other during that. For all her faults, this isn't one.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:44
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eke out posted:lol look at this joke Ahaha how would this possibly be good for them. I guess they could do a closed-door hearing and then lie about what went on?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:45
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:here's a play in two acts for you: I mean on the face yes that looks pretty awful. But she's also not just any Democrat as Minority leader she was kind of expected to support elected Democrats even if she doesn't necessarily see eye to eye with them. If for no other reason than because incumbency is an electoral advantage and as the Minority leader her priority has to be getting the majority and you don't do that by endorsing challengers also do you really believe that her endorsement swung that primary? Christ it was about as bland an endorsement as possible one 3 word quote in reply to a quick question. That's one of those things is why I really don't want to see a more openly progressive Democrat in the position because I don't want a Maxine Waters or Barbara Lee to have to moderate their positions. What should be the key bit of conversation here is that if she's the leader then the Committees get run by progressive Democrats rather than Blue Dogs. Call me naive all you want but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to her given her record and understanding what she's working against. Also there is the simple fact that the only people pushing to replace her are objectively worse. Now if there was a progressive that was looking to replace her, I might feel differently but given the current circumstances she's still the best choice. BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't really mind Pelosi in the position, but this is just a fundamentally bad take. Refusing to criticize Dems from the left because it gives an opening for others to criticize them from the right is a moronic losing strategy. In fact, criticizing Pelosi from the left is almost certainly what is [optimistically: emboldening her to; pessimistically: scaring her to] promise greater power to progressive members of the party. Criticizing and calling for a new speaker are two different things. I'm happy to criticize Pelosi when she does something dumb, I'm coming around to thinking that the super majority for tax hikes on the bottom 80% might not be the wisest option. I'm still more ambiguous on paygo because I'm not certain what her strategic justification for it is, if it's just to proactively prevent some fuckery on the part of the Republicans then maybe it's not the worse idea. I'm not familiar enough with the law making process and procedures to second guess her on it. Her declaring that they were going to win on Colbert that was pretty dumb and she deserved criticism for it. However I find it extremely annoying how many people spend the majority of their energy attacking imperfect Dems when the loving Republican party continues to exist.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:46
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theflyingorc posted:why did I not take your conspiracy theory that requires casting everyone as extreme bad faith actors at all times seriously, you ask This is a really pathetic and bad faith take. I said Lee would support Pelosi because she's going to get a leadership position if she does and that Pelosi would likely not give her a leadership position if Lee didn't support Pelosi. That's pretty common and historically accurate for the way House caucus politics works. But you then declare it a conspiracy theory worth dismissing because well you said so.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:46
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VitalSigns posted:Ahaha how would this possibly be good for them. yeah they said it's supposed to be private now - after Comey previously saying he'd happily come again, but only if it was public presumably they want to do what they've done constantly with others: have it in a closed-door session then lie to the press about it
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Nov 16, 2018 20:47
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Tibalt posted:Yeah, but they're trained professionals with a team of staffers who entire livelihoods depend on currently judging this situation while having information that's not publicly available. This argument is stupid and doesn't hold water anymore after 2016, when the Democratic leadership proved that all their words are stupid and were backed up by nothing but their hunches Not to say that the conclusion is wrong, but "they're professionals!! they know what they're doing!!!!!" does not follow
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Nov 16, 2018 20:47
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Skex posted:Her declaring that they were going to win on Colbert that was pretty dumb and she deserved criticism for it. However I find it extremely annoying how many people spend the majority of their energy attacking imperfect Dems when the loving Republican party continues to exist. What's the point of saying "Republicans evil!" over and over again when we all agree on that?
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Nov 16, 2018 20:47
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:who immediately did everything she could to distance herself and her party from the youngest woman ever elected to Congress - a woman who is now widely regarded as the future of the party That's a right wing talking point, literally. https://twitter.com/johnastoehr/status/1062761914034470912
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Nov 16, 2018 20:48
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eke out posted:unless Nancy Pelosi immediately goes into political exile, i will never stop posting  BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:AOC showing up in her office was a pre-cleared photo op, and both expressed their support for the other during that. For all her faults, this isn't one. Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's a right wing talking point, literally. And, if she has her way, she'll be right, so fair enough. MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Nov 16, 2018 |
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Nov 16, 2018 20:48
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NPR shading Trump https://twitter.com/nprpolitics/status/1063518639222075394
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