|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Oh, FFS Hamas would really like Lieberman to win, I guess: He said it at the funeral for the Hamas members killed by the Israeli special forces team It's easy to forget for us observing from afar, but the pro-Western side isn't the only one that has to deal with domestic politics. And unlike in Israel, Gaza doesn't really have stable government or provisions for peaceful transfer of power, so the groups there often don't have the luxury of crafting their messaging for a foreign audience first and foremost. Just like Israel, Hamas has to deal with a lot of discontent over the flareup and a lot of radicals unhappy with the ceasefire so soon after the Israeli raid and over a hundred airstrikes (including blowing up Gaza's only TV station), not to mention the death of a high-ranking Hamas member https://mobile.twitter.com/saidshouib/status/1062313273599684609 https://mobile.twitter.com/AsmaaSh33044351/status/1062303129608339457 https://mobile.twitter.com/AyaIsleemEn/status/1062380463547924482 https://mobile.twitter.com/ThisGaza/status/1062091594696978432 Right now, Israel is facing political turmoil and a big domestic push to talk tough as the people accuse the government of being too generous and forgiving toward Gaza. But if you stop and think about it, Gaza was hit far harder, so it shouldn't be surprising that Hamas has to deal with the same pressures.
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 16:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 16:31 |
|
|
I know all of this, I live in Israel. It just gets tiring to see this same cycle repeat itself over and over again for the last decade, and everyone here growing more and more aggressive and right-wing. BTW, if you think parties in the Israeli government are choosing their rhetoric with an eye towards a foreign audience, you are severely mistaken, with the possible exception of whatever crap Bibi espouses in English. They are 100% focused on domestic popular sentiment and their own electoral prospects. No one in government gives even one poo poo about what western audiences or the diaspora think of their antics, and aren't afraid of openly saying that in Hebrew. That's partially why "hasbara" efforts have been so crap lately. AFancyQuestionMark has issued a correction as of 17:06 on Nov 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:04
|
|
|
Yes, but on the other hand gently caress the occupation and gently caress the IDF forever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:10
|
|
|
I agree with you, friend. Not sure what the point of that post was, though?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:13
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:I agree with you, friend. Not sure what the point of that post was, though? Well, I don't think being angry at Hamas for rightfully being pissed off at the Israeli is a good thing. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-Hamas. It's just getting harder and harder to tell them to tone it down when Israel just keeps doing these things and negotiations never work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:17
|
|
|
I can definitely understand why they behave like this, but it still pisses me off when they do, if not as much as the poo poo my own government pulls. It also looks incredibly silly when, after a ceasefire was just achieved, which the Israeli public is highly dissatisfied with, so much so that the Minister of Defence resigned and the government is on the verge of collapse, that Hamas goes "We won after all. See, we succeeded in causing a great upheaval in Israeli politics  " as if this won't result in another escalation of tensions.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
Israel is the warden running the inhumane prison. Whatever the prisoners do to resist and survive is on the warden also. It's not on Hamas to worry about escalating tensions. It's on Israel to end their apartheid genocidal policies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:30
|
|
|
Can you name any action or event that won't result in an escalation of tensions? The most infuriating thing American liberals do is try to avoid coming off as "radical leftist" or "communist" or "socialist" by giving the far-right whatever they want, who then go and call the liberals those things anyway, so what even is the goddamn point?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:33
|
|
|
Tubgoat posted:Can you name any action or event that won't result in an escalation of tensions? The most infuriating thing American liberals do is try to avoid coming off as "radical leftist" or "communist" or "socialist" by giving the far-right whatever they want, who then go and call the liberals those things anyway, so what even is the goddamn point? Pretty much. The right wing in Israel wants Palestinians gone. Wiped out if necessary. They want a Jewish state only for Jewish people and they want (at least) all lands east of the Jordan river. Period. They've stated it openly more than once. What compromise is there? What can Hamas do to not "escalate?" Just lay down and die? Despite the propaganda it is Israel who is being the unreasonable party. It is Israel that routinely flouts international law and signed treaties whenever they want (with the US' blessing as our kind of client state ofc). It is Israel constantly escalating tensions in the region. It is Israel who threatens the world with nuclear weapons they are bound by treaty to not have. 
Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 17:51 on Nov 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:48
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:I can definitely understand why they behave like this, but it still pisses me off when they do, if not as much as the poo poo my own government pulls. The thing is that if Hamas doesn't do that, they'll look weak and ineffective and unresponsive to Israeli attacks, and will therefore lose ground to Islamic Jihad, who are also claiming victory right now due to the Israeli upheaval. What leads to war is actions, not words. Maybe if Israel hadn't sent a squad of soldiers in, shot the place up, and blown up a bunch of buildings to cover their retreat, we wouldn't be talking about escalation or war right now. Now both sides' response is constrained by the nature of the event that sparked everything. I don't expect someone giving a eulogy for the fighters shot by Israeli soldiers in an unprovoked attack to preach the virtues of forgiveness and coexistence, especially when he's surrounded by the smoking wreckage of the buildings Israel blew up as part of their needless escalation. And if Israel launches an all-out war just because a guy at a funeral said mean things about the killers, then that's still on Israel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:50
|
|
|
It's like I'm watching a HS wrestling match between a freshman and a dude who got held back 4 years running just so the wrestling team could have a giant in their mid 20s competing but also they paid the referees/organizers to get burly dude put into the featherweight division. Then everyone yells that the freshman is cheating mid-match because some random technicality and if he wanted a fair matchup he shouldn't have done that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:54
|
|
|
Tubgoat posted:Can you name any action or event that won't result in an escalation of tensions? The most infuriating thing American liberals do is try to avoid coming off as "radical leftist" or "communist" or "socialist" by giving the far-right whatever they want, who then go and call the liberals those things anyway, so what even is the goddamn point? Hamas could take advantage of this opportunity to try and highlight the fact that this current round started with a botched Israeli operation inside Gaza. "Things were going well until the IDF decided to stick their dicks into Gaza again and escalate, we try our best in talks for relief and the relaxation of the siege, but Israel blew it. The only obstacle to peace is the extreme ultra-nationalist Israeli government. We hope that these elections will bring about a government ready to engage in a real peace process." That likely wouldn't have done a lot but it wouldn't have played right into the hands of Israeli ultra-nationalist parties seeking to increase their standings in this election like their actual response. I understand why they didn't do this, and the blame for the whole thing still lies with the Israeli side, but it still sucks to see things gradually spiral downhill towards another invasion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:54
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Hamas could take advantage of this opportunity to try and highlight the fact that this current round started with a botched Israeli operation inside Gaza. "Things were going well until the IDF decided to stick their dicks into Gaza again and escalate, we try our best in talks for relief and the relaxation of the siege, but Israel blew it. The only obstacle to peace is the extreme ultra-nationalist Israeli government. We hope that these elections will bring about a government ready to engage in a real peace process." But this has happened numerous times before. Cease fire is called, Hamas abides by it, Israel either makes some poo poo up or doesn't even bother and starts bombing again. They just don't care. It doesn't even matter what Hamas does bro. Israel invades and bombs just as a pep rally for the right. The nutcase right wingers in Israel want Palestinians gone and will continue to engage in invasions and bombing etc. until that goal is achieved.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:57
|
|
|
They could literally all lay down and die and Israel would be butthurt that they didn't do it more quietly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:58
|
|
|
Like you're basically saying yeah Hitler was wrong still but the Jews shouldn't have provoked him.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 17:58
|
|
|
Israel isn't a monolith. Even Bibi had enough sense to accept a ceasefire, which is why his coalition is falling apart. There absolutely is a growing turbo nationalist segment of the Israeli public, but their expansion can be stopped. A single electoral defeat could be enough to reverse, or at least moderate the trend. Which is why it sucks that everything points to them using this debacle to further increase their infuence in the public consciousness . I am not laying this on Hamas feet, I am just feeling frustrated with the direction my country is headed and grousing at every contributing factor, no matter how minor. Because what else can I do but rant impotently on these forums?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:16
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Israel isn't a monolith. Even Bibi had enough sense to accept a ceasefire, which is why his coalition is falling apart. Yeah, I get it. Man, the world really sucks these days. Thank God my life is getting better or I’d be going into a deep depression again.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:20
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-Hamas. lol if you're not pro-Hamas AFancyQuestionMark posted:Israel isn't a monolith. Even Bibi had enough sense to accept a ceasefire, which is why his coalition is falling apart. Israel keeps moving further to the right because there's absolutely nothing to stop it. Israel is beholden to no one so long as the United States is always there to tip the scales in their favor on the international stage and undermine BDS. Israel is gonna get more fascist because there's no reason for them not to, politically speaking.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:24
|
|
|
That's bullshit. Were was this rightist determinism in the 90's? The steady, uninterrupted, right ward slide has only been a thing for a little over a decade. Hell, the disrngagement from Gaza wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:29
|
|
|
how hosed over did the israeli populace get by the 2008 financial crash?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:32
|
|
|
Jose posted:how hosed over did the israeli populace get by the 2008 financial crash? not too much compared to other countries.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:35
|
|
|
I was in my last year of middle school back then, so I couldn't really tell you. IIRC, it was bad but not catastrophic. The economy has recovered, and while high cost of living is a frequent source of grievances, it is usually overshadowed by the IP conflict politically.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
Well its caused a far right swing in tons of other places so I wondered how much it might've contributed to it there
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:44
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:That's bullshit. Were was this rightist determinism in the 90's? The steady, uninterrupted, right ward slide has only been a thing for a little over a decade. Hell, the disrngagement from Gaza wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in 1995.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
That's true, but there were several left of centre governments since that time, with Olmert being the latest.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:48
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:That's true, but there were several left of centre governments since that time, with Olmert being the latest. Who maintained the occupation and the ritual murder of Palestinians.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
Left of centre relative to Israeli politics. There was also a half assed attempt at a peace deal somewhere in there. Point is, it's only been getting steadily more right wing post-Olmert. Before that things vacillated back and forth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 19:02
|
|
|
Setting aside procedural questions about left-wing parties and their viability in Israeli politics, is genuine anti-apartheid sentiment anywhere near popular enough amongst Israeli Jewish people to make it politically viable even in a perfect system that unerringly expressed the will of the majority? I think that's important in the sense that, historically, apartheid systems that have been overturned have either been subverted by a proportion of the majority racial group working for a minority-lead liberation movement or, like in South Africa, where the oppressed group constituted the supermajority of the population and was thus able to effectively use traditional methods of disruptive protest like strikes, walk-outs, sit-ins, etc, in addition to sporadic violence. If a state is characterized by having a relatively small minority group (proportionate to the population of that state) that is subject to apartheid and genocide, but not enough collaborationist decent people in the majority population to effect change, then what can possibly be done within an internal democratic framework to stop that genocide?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 19:09
|
|
|
Honestly, the best chance at this point, politically speaking, is some sort of two-state solution based on land swaps. This is still a mainstream enough opinion that it could have a chance at happening, with a left of center coalition in charge. Unfortunately this chance is slipping further and further away as new settlements get built and the country slides rightwards.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 19:15
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Oh, FFS Hamas would really like Lieberman to win, I guess: Imagine thinking that Palestinians had some power to make Israeli invasions more or less likely than it already was ahaha, as if the IDF weren't gonna roll up and bomb everything if you kissed their boots enough
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 19:24
|
|
|
Frog Act posted:Setting aside procedural questions about left-wing parties and their viability in Israeli politics, is genuine anti-apartheid sentiment anywhere near popular enough amongst Israeli Jewish people to make it politically viable even in a perfect system that unerringly expressed the will of the majority? I think that's important in the sense that, historically, apartheid systems that have been overturned have either been subverted by a proportion of the majority racial group working for a minority-lead liberation movement or, like in South Africa, where the oppressed group constituted the supermajority of the population and was thus able to effectively use traditional methods of disruptive protest like strikes, walk-outs, sit-ins, etc, in addition to sporadic violence. stepping up disruptions from low-level strikes to more proportional responses? its like how the usa isnt going to stop the prison system anytime soon
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 19:42
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:That's bullshit. Were was this rightist determinism in the 90's? The steady, uninterrupted, right ward slide has only been a thing for a little over a decade. Hell, the disrngagement from Gaza wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking. the 90s was right wing as gently caress actually. Israel's center is pro-apartheid so slightly left of that isn't meaningful really?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 20:06
|
|
|
Genuinley advancing a peace process versus steadily and irreversibly jeopordizing any possibility for one is a major difference.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 20:20
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Genuinley advancing a peace process versus steadily and irreversibly jeopordizing any possibility for one is a major difference. I mean sure, but again like... in '93 they agreed to let the Palestinians self-govern in their own territories (gee thanks lmao) and then two years later the Palestinian PM was assassinated and then Netanyahu took over. Also frankly any agreement or treaty the Israelis come to at this point, esp with the current government in charge, are highly suspect. They are broken as a matter of course. All throughout during peace talks and cease-fires, the Israelis continue to expand settlements in direct contradiction of numerous UN resolutions, international laws, treaties, etc. One could say that they present a good face to the world "interested in peace talks, two state blah blah blah" while they just buy time to continue settlements so finally they can say "well, clearly there will be no two-state solution because look Jewish people already live all in those areas and it's not relevant now how they got there." And in the meantime they continue to "manage" the Palestinian population and raze towns/etc. that are in the way.* So, yes, the early 90s were better than now but it's not like it wasn't still way way way to the right wing when a concession such as "sure we'll let you elect your own gov't I guess but we still control everything" is seen as a positive step forward. * and honestly this is all setting you guys up for some poo poo in the coming years because I don't see any way out of this situation peacefully. Two-State is obviously not going to happen because the settlements continually expand and one-state with equal rights for all isn't going to happen without some serious unfucking of the Israeli gov't and popular opinion. From a pessimistic point of view granted but to me it looks like you're hurtling towards some kind of full blown genocide when Bibi finally stops caring what he USA will think (the USA might even approve of it at this rate) and/or a civil war. Ya'll are causing massive instability in the region and ya'll are the only ones with nukes and ya'll have a nuclear doctrine cribbed from Andross out of Star Fox 64's playbook. So yeah alright Israel is not a monolith but the part of it that is opposed to all this better start stepping up then because uh, lol Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 20:33 on Nov 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 20:26
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Honestly, the best chance at this point, politically speaking, is some sort of two-state solution based on land swaps. This is still a mainstream enough opinion that it could have a chance at happening, with a left of center coalition in charge. The best chance at this point, politically speaking, is no solution and just edging the status quo slowly to the right forever. The fact is that the Israeli populace does not have a strong desire for a fair peace. As long as that's the case, talking about what's "politically viable" as if one election could overturn decades of oppression is silly. Right now, even the centrist parties are taking Netanyahu to task for not being hard enough on the Palestinians. The only party speaking out against war is Meretz, and they barely exist in the Knesset. Talking about one-state vs two-state is pointless, because without any serious political will to make actual concessions on the Israeli side, any so-called peace deal is just an attempt to get the Palestinians to sign away their claims against Israel in return for enshrining the status quo in a treaty.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 21:01
|
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Genuinley advancing a peace process versus steadily and irreversibly jeopordizing any possibility for one is a major difference. The only peace that israel will ever give palestinians is that of a grave Until that changes, prostrating themselves before the IDF in hope of leniency or, even more naively, hoping that the international community will put an end to it is just madness.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 21:10
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:hoping that the international community will put an end to it is just madness.  Chaos does reign.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 21:32
|
|
|
Tubgoat posted:
Jared is working 24/7 on it and is *this* close to a solution Hang in there folks!
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 21:43
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:Jared is working 24/7 on it
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 23:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 16:31 |
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:That's bullshit. Were was this rightist determinism in the 90's? The steady, uninterrupted, right ward slide has only been a thing for a little over a decade. Hell, the disrngagement from Gaza wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking. oh cool the intensification of fascism in Israel has only been in evidence for the majority of the 21st century. I’m now extremely optimistic about things for some reason
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 12:48
|
|
