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pwn posted:While that is a salient point, so too is the objective fact that the absence of Butthole Spiders is preferable to Butthole Spiders, owing to not having spiders coming out of your butthole. They’re enormous Sean seems pretty confident that they'll be getting Doug into the Bad Place. I feel that if good-point champ Doug doesn't have a guaranteed spot in Heaven, then Mindy sure as gently caress didn't fall just a few points short of getting herself in. Think of Mindy as maybe a pilot program for the psychological torture experiment. How horrible would it be to be told that you ALMOST made it into the Good Place, leaving you to linger forever alone in limbo, knowing every moment that any one teeny action you could have taken in your life that added even a couple good points might have tipped the scales and gotten you a ticket to eternal bliss?
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Nov 18, 2018 06:47
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Robot Hobo posted:Think of Mindy as maybe a pilot program for the psychological torture experiment. How horrible would it be to be told that you ALMOST made it into the Good Place, leaving you to linger forever alone in limbo, knowing every moment that any one teeny action you could have taken in your life that added even a couple good points might have tipped the scales and gotten you a ticket to eternal bliss? There are some Christians who hold up this as their concept of what hell is. Your torture is being told the rules of the universe and that you hosed up your chance to get into heaven and can never undo it.
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Nov 18, 2018 07:15
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Senor Tron posted:There are some Christians who hold up this as their concept of what hell is. Joke's on them, I was mad at God before I died and I'll drat well stay mad about him for the rest of eternity if I have to
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Nov 18, 2018 07:49
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Senor Tron posted:There are some Christians who hold up this as their concept of what hell is. That's always seemed so silly to me. Like, that wouldn't fly playing a board game with friends, let alone the most important "game" you could play in your entire existence. If I believed that is really how things worked I would just do whatever I wanted. Why not? Maybe the rules are you have to kill 1,042 babies and eat exactly 9000 pumpkin seeds to get into heaven. Who knows?
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Nov 18, 2018 08:27
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If Mindy's Medium Place isn't real, then we've been lied to constantly by every character who should know the truth, even when there are no humans around to deceive. It just doesn't make any sense to speculate and theorycraft things that directly contradict stuff in the show there's no reason to believe is false. If you say Mindy's Medium Place is fake then you might as well just guess wildly because we have no clues to work from and can't trust anything. What I'm saying is don't get so carried away trying to work out a twist that you ignore the stuff we actually know.
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Nov 18, 2018 08:54
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Toast Museum posted:Who has Janet identified as going to the Good Place? It was Michael who mentioned Abraham Lincoln in the pilot, and otherwise they've mostly named people who went to the Bad Place. In the podcast intro she says the most popular podcast in the Good Place is Mozart and Jimi Hendrix talking about music, but it's a bit of a stretch to count that as part of the show. Besides, it could just mean that the Good Place has a podcast that simulates those two, not that they are themselves in the Good Place. I'm going to say it seems weird that Lincoln got into the good place. Ending slavery is likely a lot of points but it's not like he did any super good stuff in his life, especially if Doug is the model of the sort of things you do need to do. After all his motivation wasn't just "I'd like to end slavery because it's good for people" and that's what you seem to need to have!
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Nov 18, 2018 09:23
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I'd like if the reason Sean is so desperate for the new souls is simply because Michael was right and the usual things are losing their magic for everyone. After billions of years of torture, they've lost the fear of it. Any phobias have long since been immersion therapied out after countless exposures to them and all the orifices and body parts are accounted for, so even the new tortures are greeted not with fear but with "Really? Butthole spiders? How are they different from the butthole Squid? Or the Butthole fireants?" Certainly the screams are real, they still have the actual pain that they are inflicting, but due to losing the fear of it it's lost it's fun. Like Michael's constant lying about his good place, their successes are just posturing. They want so many new souls because they want people who aren't desensitized to it all. Like, they know the food turns to ash so they just don't bother trying to eat anymore, the constant mythical animal attacks have just become of life, and they know the water is either going to be too hot or too cold so they don't even try to shower. Basically, Hell has become so a part of their existence now it's just Earth, in that it really sucks, but you just have to deal with it. Forever.
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Nov 18, 2018 09:27
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BioEnchanted posted:I'd like if the reason Sean is so desperate for the new souls is simply because Michael was right and the usual things are losing their magic for everyone. After billions of years of torture, they've lost the fear of it. Any phobias have long since been immersion therapied out after countless exposures to them and all the orifices and body parts are accounted for, so even the new tortures are greeted not with fear but will "Really? Butthole spiders? How are they different from the butthole Squid? Or the Butthole fireants?" Certainly the screams are real, they still have the actual pain that they are inflicting, but due to losing the fear of it it's lost it's fun. Like Michael's constant lying about his good place, their successes are just posturing. It doesn't work like that because you can just delete people's memories! Also he's called Shawn because he has the worst spelling of the name.
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Nov 18, 2018 09:28
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Taear posted:It doesn't work like that because you can just delete people's memories! Course, forgot about that. I think I misinterpreted that and thought that was just Michael's thing, like Shawn's the only one who can cocoon people. BioEnchanted fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Nov 18, 2018 |
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Nov 18, 2018 09:37
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Taear posted:It doesn't work like that because you can just delete people's memories!
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Nov 18, 2018 09:40
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You know, something that might be neat is if the system wasn't broken maliciously. Maybe the system was set up in the time of the cavemen and them just living normally got them enough Good Place points to go to the Good Place. Room to be sent to the bad place too, I'm sure, but there was equal opportunity for Ug and Og to go to either one depending on their choices. It's just, for whatever reason, by the time the Soul Squad bites it, the equation is balanced super heavily in the favor of being sent to the Bad Place. Like of of those "yeah, look, this is the system we've used since year 0. It works just fine" and nobody actually checked it, just assumed it was working fine cause it did the last time the checked it when those nice Sabertooth Tigers got Ug and Og. No maliciousness, just the system being balanced wrong and nobody catching it.
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Nov 18, 2018 13:05
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BioEnchanted posted:I'd like if the reason Sean is so desperate for the new souls is simply because Michael was right and the usual things are losing their magic for everyone. After billions of years of torture, they've lost the fear of it. Any phobias have long since been immersion therapied out after countless exposures to them and all the orifices and body parts are accounted for, so even the new tortures are greeted not with fear but with "Really? Butthole spiders? How are they different from the butthole Squid? Or the Butthole fireants?" Certainly the screams are real, they still have the actual pain that they are inflicting, but due to losing the fear of it it's lost it's fun. Like Michael's constant lying about his good place, their successes are just posturing. This makes some sense. Let's also not forget that in his introduction Shawn was presented as a literally neutral character who would retreat if anyone became emotional around him. The Soul Squad appears to have broken him as much as it's revealed the cracks in the system. And the system can't be built maliciously. That wouldn't jive at all with the themes of the show.
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Nov 18, 2018 13:23
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Mokinokaro posted:This makes some sense. Let's also not forget that in his introduction Shawn was presented as a literally neutral character who would retreat if anyone became emotional around him. You realise that was part of the ruse, right?
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Nov 18, 2018 13:23
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The_Doctor posted:You realise that was part of the ruse, right? I forgot he was only like that in season one.
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Nov 18, 2018 13:25
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ZRM posted:No maliciousness, just the system being balanced wrong and nobody catching it. Point Calculation Changelog (2018 CE): - Doug Forcett now gets a 50% penalty on all good acts he performs - Fixed a bug where people can accumulate points by being happiness pumps - Humans can no longer force other humans' scores to decrease by sticking them on a runaway trolley - Humans now receive points even after confirming how the afterlife works, if they commit good acts while believing they're going to the Bad Place, unless they have also seen this line of this changelog
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Nov 18, 2018 13:26
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SirSamVimes posted:I feel like Michael operates under the "best lies involve truth mixed in" policy, so I don't think he lied about the actual system. After all, it's confirmed that his description of retirement was 100% accurate. We also don't know how much Bad Place demons like Michael actually know about the real Good Place. The fake Good Place he made might just be his idea of what it must be like. Like how he said he made up soul mates. Although I guess you could know who ends up there through logical deduction. If you know someone died on Earth, and you can't find them anywhere in the Bad Place, then they must have made it to the Good Place (except for Mindy)
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Nov 18, 2018 13:33
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Argue posted:- Humans now receive points even after confirming how the afterlife works, if they commit good acts while believing they're going to the Bad Place, unless they have also seen this line of this changelog Well now I'm screwed, gently caress you 
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Nov 18, 2018 13:34
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Apologies if this came up back when the episode first aired, but I just got linked to this solution to the Trolley Problem and it's absolutely perfect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4
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Nov 18, 2018 14:09
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ZRM posted:You know, something that might be neat is if the system wasn't broken maliciously. Maybe the system was set up in the time of the cavemen and them just living normally got them enough Good Place points to go to the Good Place. Room to be sent to the bad place too, I'm sure, but there was equal opportunity for Ug and Og to go to either one depending on their choices. Time isn't linear and the system was set up when all of creation had happened. It can't work like that or it'd mean the good place and bad place are also experiencing the passage of time the same way we are and we can see that they're not.
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Nov 18, 2018 14:34
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I'm curious if we'd ever see people from the current timeline, like Chidi's friends, in the afterlife. The Jeremy Bearemy stuff would make stuff like that plausible, although with them resetting the timeline on Earth I guess a lot of potential deaths could have changed. Does that mean that someone who would have been in the Bad Place could have suddenly had their fate averted, thus ending up in the Good Place instead and suddenly disappearing mid-torture with no memory of what happened?
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Nov 18, 2018 14:45
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The arbitrary point system of Jason and Chidi's Jacksonville-Style Pool is meant to parallel the arbitrary point system of the afterlife, right?
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Nov 18, 2018 15:33
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It could be. The writers either know exactly what they're doing with that and it's something, or they're doing nothing and they're winning.Rarity posted:Well now I'm screwed, gently caress you It's okay, if you keep doing good even though you believe you're screwed, you're fine. Unless someone tells you that, of course, but who would do such a thing.
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Nov 18, 2018 15:59
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https://twitter.com/DarcyCarden/status/1063934155115778048
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Nov 18, 2018 16:21
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Mindy St Clair doesn't really seem to be tortured at all. except for the part where they keep forgetting to bring her cocaine.
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Nov 18, 2018 17:55
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pwn posted:While that is a salient point, so too is the objective fact that the absence of Butthole Spiders is preferable to Butthole Spiders, owing to not having spiders coming out of your butthole. They’re enormous I think you're missing an important point about the Butthole Spiders, in that while they may eventually come out, first they have to go in and hang out for a while. While being enormous. And they did eventually bring Mindy Cocaine, they stuck a bag on Derek before they sent him.
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Nov 18, 2018 19:20
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BlueBayou posted:Mindy St Clair doesn't really seem to be tortured at all. I don't know, living a life in complete solitude and having nothing be the way you want it could be a form of at least *light* torture.
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Nov 18, 2018 19:31
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ApplesandOranges posted:Do monks get Good Place points for their lifestyle? Was Tahani actually on track to getting to The Good Place before that random TV crew discovered her and swung her back into doing good things for corrupt reasons? Now, real life Jainist monks certainly believe that an ascetic hermit generates plenty of good points. Digambara monks follow some...interesting rules. quote:A Digambara monk is allowed to keep only a feather whisk, a water gourd and scripture with him.
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Nov 18, 2018 19:40
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Regy Rusty posted:I'm not convinced that what Doug has been doing wouldn't get him in to the good place. I think the purpose of his character is to demonstrate what it means to take the criteria to the extreme and maximize point gain to the expense of everything else. Remember once the four people knew how the afterworld worked, all their good works were now tainted because they knew what was up. Wouldn't it be the same with Doug? After all, he's not choosing to do good because it's right, he's looking to game the system. Also, Shawn could just be lying to demoralize Michael and the others. I mean, you have to be pretty bad to do that, but I'm suspecting that Shawn is not a good guy.
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Nov 18, 2018 19:57
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Cemetry Gator posted:Remember once the four people knew how the afterworld worked, all their good works were now tainted because they knew what was up. The episode's writer says no. Doug does not know how the system works; he merely has beliefs that happen to be pretty close.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:04
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Cemetry Gator posted:Also, [Sean] could just be lying to demoralize Michael and the others. I mean, you have to be pretty bad to do that, but I'm suspecting that Shawn is not a good guy.
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Nov 18, 2018 22:19
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What about, beginning to do good things because you think you will get a good afterlife, but then, once you have begun doing good, and it becomes a habit, and then forms your character, your motivations change so that you want to do good just for the sake of doing good? That seems to be Elanor's character arc. The only problem is if you only ever have selfish motivations, which is what doomed Tahani. I think, even if you have mixed motives, both selfish & selfless, you'd probably still be getting some good points for that.
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Nov 19, 2018 08:16
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I don't think it's even possible for human beings to be entirely selfless & not selfish at all, just due to our nature. If the Good Place is empty theory is true, that would probably be why. (which I don't think is the case, because of Mindy & the reasons previously mentioned)
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Nov 19, 2018 08:20
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They joked about this in season 2 but I think it's all leading up to a completely unironic realization that the real Good Place was the friends we made along the way.
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Nov 19, 2018 08:28
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What I can't get over is how this brilliant choreographed fight was totally within the narrative of the story. That whole thing made perfect sense within the context of this world. This is truly the greatest show.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:11
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Argue posted:They joked about this in season 2 but I think it's all leading up to a completely unironic realization that the real Good Place was the friends we made along the way. I mean this is overall a show with a very positive tone so it won't be an "everyone is doomed" ending. My take on this is that ANYONE can "go" to the good place and it's actually up to them based on how they judge themselves (honestly) internally. So if you think/feel (in your heart of hearts) you were a "bad" person in your life you will go to the bad place but it's totally up to you and not some arbitrary system (and everything we see, the bad place, the demons and so on are just a tool for people in the afterlife to reflect on themselves). I really can't see anything else than "anyone chooses his own afterlife" because everything else does have kinda bad implications and wouldn't feel right for this show.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:48
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I feel like the afterlife would be full of assholes in that scenario. And also Tahani.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:40
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Then it would be like the Inquisitor episode of Red Dwarf, where Rimmer & the Cat judge themselves to continue to exist, while Lister & Kryten judge themselves to be erased from history
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Nov 20, 2018 02:51
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LinkesAuge posted:I mean this is overall a show with a very positive tone so it won't be an "everyone is doomed" ending. My take on this is that ANYONE can "go" to the good place and it's actually up to them based on how they judge themselves (honestly) internally. So if you think/feel (in your heart of hearts) you were a "bad" person in your life you will go to the bad place but it's totally up to you and not some arbitrary system (and everything we see, the bad place, the demons and so on are just a tool for people in the afterlife to reflect on themselves). I really can't see anything else than "anyone chooses his own afterlife" because everything else does have kinda bad implications and wouldn't feel right for this show. That sounds like the worst possible arrangement. Narcissistic assholes all go to the Good Place (because of course they'd feel they deserve the best), but kind people who tend to be critical of themselves get wasp-nostrilled for eternity? Yikes.
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Nov 20, 2018 03:19
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Yeah, I feel like most lovely people never really think of themselves as lovely people, there's always some justification that puts them in the right. Rationalization is a powerful thing.
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Nov 20, 2018 06:56
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LinkesAuge posted:I mean this is overall a show with a very positive tone so it won't be an "everyone is doomed" ending. My take on this is that ANYONE can "go" to the good place and it's actually up to them based on how they judge themselves (honestly) internally. So if you think/feel (in your heart of hearts) you were a "bad" person in your life you will go to the bad place but it's totally up to you and not some arbitrary system (and everything we see, the bad place, the demons and so on are just a tool for people in the afterlife to reflect on themselves). I really can't see anything else than "anyone chooses his own afterlife" because everything else does have kinda bad implications and wouldn't feel right for this show. But Tahani 100% believed she was getting into the Good Place, and if you have to choose in any sense then Chidi would have been in Limbo the whole time, and do you really think people are inspired to reflect on themselves by lava monsters and butthole spiders, and you have to assume there's no such thing as points which mean Michael and Janet were wrong about everything, and if people aren't actually being judged then why is there a judge, and why would someone deeply believe in their heart that they deserve just kind of an okay-ish afterlife, and... Basically I don't think any theory that throws out the whole show is worth considering. The Bad Place reveal worked because the show had built up its internal logic, and then just changed the starting premises. The characters weren't in the afterlife they thought they were, but they were dead and had been judged. Whatever happens next, however unpredictable, is still going to fit in the show's basic framework. Otherwise the show so far might as well have not happened, you know?
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Nov 20, 2018 07:24
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