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Lemming posted:The solution is to hold Trump accountable and make that behavior unacceptable so we can hold our government accountable when they do it to other countries. No one cares, though. America doesn't care about us blowing little kids into bits or starving them out by the millions, you think they're suddenly gonna care about foreign election meddling? You can't honestly believe that.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:36
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VitalSigns posted:My dude the US does that and more to foreign countries all the drat time. You do understand that the example Trump gives is Obama supporting Nethanyahu's opponent openly, right? That's the false equivalence hill you want to die on here? Megaman's Jockstrap posted:No one cares, though. America doesn't care about us blowing little kids into bits or starving them out by the millions, you think they're suddenly gonna care about foreign election meddling? You can't honestly believe that. "America doesn't care about bombings happening in the middle east, you really think they're gonna care if a couple of planes get flown into some buildings in New York?" Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 23:37
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:No one cares, though. America doesn't care about us blowing little kids into bits or starving them out by the millions, you think they're suddenly gonna care about foreign election meddling? You can't honestly believe that. If nothing matters and nothing ever gets better or will ever change then we should all just give up and nuke ourselves. Yeah, things are bad right now. The entire point is that we should be working to improve them. If you think there's no reason to do anything why are you even following politics at all?
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Nov 19, 2018 23:39
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:No one cares, though. America doesn't care about us blowing little kids into bits or starving them out by the millions, you think they're suddenly gonna care about foreign election meddling? You can't honestly believe that. they care if its happening in their country with people in power. sorry to tell, but sadly your average american citizen doesn't know jack poo poo about the horrors of proxy wars and american interventionism and never have. thats sadly a hell of alot different then the president being outted as a giant criminal monster however would be noticed by your average citizen. that hosed nixon, it will gently caress trump.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:40
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STAC Goat posted:Out of curiosity who is saying this? Like I've never heard the "Russia literally hacked the machines and changed votes to Trump" from anyone except RW people claiming that's what Democrats are arguing. And maybe the lunatics likes Mensch. VitalSigns and co are so dug in on this issue they refuse to ever acknowledge that the strongest claim their thread-opponents are making is "We have reason to think that the sum total of all Russian influence operations may have affected the elections, and we don't know to what extent, so it's good that an investigation is happening." It's very important that they keep claiming everyone they disagree with believes in Menschian conspiracies, or that we're all claiming that memes about Bernie pushed by trolls are why Hillary lost, or that we are #resistance cop-lovers that all want to welcome Mueller into the Democratic Party, etc, because we're fundamentally making very moderate claims that're hard to dismiss unless you pretend otherwise.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:41
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Lemming posted:If nothing matters and nothing ever gets better or will ever change then we should all just give up and nuke ourselves. I can't stop a hurricane but I need to see when and in what direction it's coming from to prepare myself. Also I'm cautioning you against wishful thinking, things can get better (but the odds get longer every day) Dapper_Swindler posted:they care if its happening in their country with people in power. sorry to tell, but sadly your average american citizen doesn't know jack poo poo about the horrors of proxy wars and american interventionism. Yeah and when you explain it to them they say "who gives a poo poo?"
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Nov 19, 2018 23:41
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I can't stop a hurricane but I need to see when and in what direction it's coming from to prepare myself. We just had one of the most historic wave elections in history less than 2 weeks ago.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:44
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Rigel posted:You are cherry-picking little stupid isolated incidents where one or more members of the media did or said something stupid and bad. That does not prove your point at all. The media is incredibly kind and docile to Trump considering the amount of poo poo that he and his administration could be hammered on every single day. You're comparing their coverage of him compared to past presidents as if those presidents and actions are equal, but they're not, not at all. I.E. Bushisms vs pretty much any time Trump opens his mouth.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:45
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I can't stop a hurricane but I need to see when and in what direction it's coming from to prepare myself. they usualy make sad noises and want to change the subject. what i am saying is, the president being a massive criminal will matter more then a drone blowing up a wedding. it sucks but its true. we just swept that house and may possibly bring the senate to a dead even. i am pretty sure people are mad at trump and the GOP.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:45
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Lemming posted:The solution is to hold Trump accountable and make that behavior unacceptable so we can hold our government accountable when they do it to other countries. Someone doing a bad thing doesn't mean we should excuse someone else doing the bad thing. In fact, it's the opposite! Right but most Democratic politicians and pundits are uninterested in holding our government accountable when they do it to other countries, which is part of the PR problem imo, that they are obviously huge hypocrites who are only mad about hacking and meddling when other countries are doing it to them. Like I agree that holding Trump and only Trump accountable is better than nothing because election interference is bad, even though we all know that none of these folks have discovered a moral compass or will ever apply that standard to themselves, but I'm not the person that needs to be convinced and I don't think being huge hypocrites on this issue is going to be very effective at convincing anyone who isn't already looking for a reason to hate Trump (much like Benghazi didn't do anything to convince anyone who didn't already hate Obama in 2012 because Republicans were such obvious hypocrites and their own investigation showed the underfunded security was their fault in the first place)
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Nov 19, 2018 23:45
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Fulchrum posted:We just had one of the most historic wave elections in history less than 2 weeks ago. a) It was primarily worthless Obama-style New Dems b) Our system of government kneecaps them c) they deliberately kneecap themselves Dapper_Swindler posted:they usualy make sad noises and want to change the subject. what i am saying is, the president being a massive criminal will matter more then a drone blowing up a wedding. it sucks but its true. we just swept that house and may possibly bring the senate to a dead even. i am pretty sure people are mad at trump and the GOP. Sorry, I think our wires got crossed, I'm mocking the idea of Americans ever giving a poo poo that their government interfered in foreign elections. Also deflection and changing the subject absolutely is "who gives a poo poo" without actually wanting to reveal their moral vacuousness.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:46
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I don't care how 'hostile to trump' the media is when they're constantly bringing on right wing idiots to give their opinion or, even worse, right wing idiots to get good boy points by saying 'mmm yes Trump was very rude....even though I agree with his political agenda entirely'. The media is a servant of the status quo and Trump is really only a threat to that in tone, they're not his actual check or enemy or whatever
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Nov 19, 2018 23:47
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Fulchrum posted:You do understand that the example Trump gives is Obama supporting Nethanyahu's opponent openly, right? That's the false equivalence hill you want to die on here? Trump has been considerably vaguer than that in his whataboutism on other occasions, I'm not familiar with the specific quote you're mentioning, but in any case he typically deflects criticism of Putin with vague statements about the US committing crimes so listeners can fill in the blanks.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:47
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:
yeah. that makes more sense and is true.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:49
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TulliusCicero posted:
Too young to fight the nazis at the time. Some of them make up for it now.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:50
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VitalSigns posted:Right but most Democratic politicians and pundits are uninterested in holding our government accountable when they do it to other countries, which is part of the PR problem imo, that they are obviously huge hypocrites who are only mad about hacking and meddling when other countries are doing it to them. You are describing things from the loving 80's as if they are happening now. Hell, the entire situation in Honduras right now is happening because the US government directly refused to intervene in a foreign countries political matters.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:51
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I can't stop a hurricane but I need to see when and in what direction it's coming from to prepare myself. No, they don't. Jesus this "nothing matters" poo poo is tiring. People are working hard every day to improve things and they're winning lots of victories and it's tiresome to hear unsubstantiated doomsaying over and over and over and over. VitalSigns posted:Right but most Democratic politicians and pundits are uninterested in holding our government accountable when they do it to other countries, which is part of the PR problem imo, that they are obviously huge hypocrites who are only mad about hacking and meddling when other countries are doing it to them. Yes, lots of Dems are terrible. That's why there's a big effort to replace them with better Dems. Part of that process is replacing them with Dems who will hold ourselves accountable to our foreign policy decisions. And guess what, evidence that Trump committed a crime is going to be substantively different than the Benghazi investigations because those were transparently sham investigations that never came up with any evidence of any crimes. There is a difference between bad things and good things.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:51
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Fulchrum posted:You are describing things from the loving 80's as if they are happening now. Hell, the entire situation in Honduras right now is happening because the US government directly refused to intervene in a foreign countries political matters. lol you mean when the US supported the military coup against Honduras' elected government, that situation? E: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat quote:From 2009 to mid-2016, however, the U.S. provided about $200 million in military and police aid to Honduras, a controversial decision given the violence in Honduras and the government's human rights violations E2: also meddling in Russia's elections was the late 90s and the people who did it are still in power, in fact the perp who ordered it is complaining about Putin doing the same thing to his wife! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Nov 20, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 23:55
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Lemming posted:No, they don't. Jesus this "nothing matters" poo poo is tiring. People are working hard every day to improve things and they're winning lots of victories and it's tiresome to hear unsubstantiated doomsaying over and over and over and over. The Benghazi investigation did come up with evidence of crimes, they were just crimes Republicans agreed with so they were quickly dropped.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:56
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Lemming posted:No, they don't. Jesus this "nothing matters" poo poo is tiring. People are working hard every day to improve things and they're winning lots of victories and it's tiresome to hear unsubstantiated doomsaying over and over and over and over. I never said "nothing matters" and you need to stop freaking out on people who don't buy into your cheerleading. In 12 years runaway climate change will begin to kill us all, and every single day that we pump more carbon into the atmosphere without getting closer to a solution is a loss. There's literally no indication, none, zero, that the incoming Dems will get us any closer to a real solution (carbon tax or "a committee" is not a real solution). When AOC has 75 co-signers to the Green New Deal, get back to me. Until then, please understand that a lot of this has the potential to be about as useful as re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Nov 20, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 23:56
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Lemming posted:No, they don't. Jesus this "nothing matters" poo poo is tiring. People are working hard every day to improve things and they're winning lots of victories and it's tiresome to hear unsubstantiated doomsaying over and over and over and over. Pretty much this. The hardest obstacle to defeat is apathy, and seeing decades of GOP shitmongering has made a lot of people apathetic. This doesn't mean that people aren't fighting or don't need our help, and ignoring the things that have improved because the decades-long stranglehold hasn't disappeared completely is doing a disservice to people who are fighting. Don't lose heart, folks. I know it feels like forever because it's hell dimension, but Trump hasn't even hit two years in office yet. Fixing his messes, let alone the foundations that allowed it in the first place, is going to take time and work, and good work was done in the midterms.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:56
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Fulchrum posted:You are describing things from the loving 80's as if they are happening now. Hell, the entire situation in Honduras right now is happening because the US government directly refused to intervene in a foreign countries political matters. Uhhhh...you might want to learn, maybe, anything about Honduras.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:59
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Or South America
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Nov 20, 2018 00:01
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VitalSigns posted:lol you mean when the US supported the military coup against Honduras' elected government, that situation? When, after the people and the courts tried to oust a president trying to declare himself a dictator, they supported that decision, yes. But somehow, if they had supported the president in doing what Xi Jinping is doing right now, that would not have been intervening. Strange, you seem to keep forgetting the part about it being a coup against someone trying to declare themselves president for life.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:01
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I never said "nothing matters" and you need to stop freaking out on people who don't buy into your cheerleading. Dude, this is that exact argument. You're agreeing with the Republicans here - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-climate-denial - we're all going to die of climate change anyway, so why bother doing anything at all? The point is that although global warming is happening, anything we can do to reduce its impact will still save lives and improve the lives of others. Democrats taking the House is still a necessary, although not sufficient, step in working towards improving things. Just because things are still going to end up bad doesn't mean they couldn't have ended up worse. It's not about cheerleading, it's about the nihilism and doomsaying being counterproductive and exhausting.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:02
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EdithUpwards posted:Or South America Or anything.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:04
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Lemming posted:Dude, this is that exact argument. You're agreeing with the Republicans here - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-climate-denial - we're all going to die of climate change anyway, so why bother doing anything at all? This is so incredibly frustrating because I do not believe we should not do anything. In fact I think we should radically restructure society to fix it, including ending capitalism. Because that's what it's going to take. Which is why New Dems taking the house does not fix the problem, because they aren't going to do that. Every time I attempt to simply stick to a fact-based accounting of the massive problems we're facing right now and the very real narrowing window to act you add in "and there's nothing we can do about it!" Please stop. Being honest and clear-eyed about the massive problems and impending global catastrophe we're facing is not defeatism, it's not nihilism, and it does not mean giving up.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:07
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Fulchrum posted:When, after the people and the courts tried to oust a president trying to declare himself a dictator, they supported that decision, yes. But somehow, if they had supported the president in doing what Xi Jinping is doing right now, that would not have been intervening. jesus h christ dude what the gently caress While I'm amused that you just turned on a dime from "the US didn't interfere with Honduran politics" to "okay they supported a military coup but Honduras deserved it", the fact that you're defending arming a murderous dictatorship that has destroyed the country because the previous president tried to change the constitution in his favor is frankly ghastly and shocking.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:10
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BTW on a completely different subject check this out, this is why the finance industry capturing both parties has been such a disaster: https://twitter.com/BJMbraun/status/1064447847028981762
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Nov 20, 2018 00:11
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Jaxyon posted:Uhhhh...you might want to learn, maybe, anything about Honduras. Zelaya tried to rewrite the constitution to do away with term limits and declare himself president for life. The courts told him to gently caress off, and after he refused to comply, the military ousted him and the government was forced into exile. The Honduran system at that point was entirely self directed and at no point did the US intervene. Arguments against US actions here would require a direct military intervention on their part to restore Zelayas government. Which is the entire thing you're arguing against. This argument just turns on a dime on whether American intervention in another countries politics is good or bad. Or is it more complicated than "DEMS BAD AND AMERICA BAD!" so its not real? Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Nov 20, 2018 |
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Nov 20, 2018 00:12
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This is so incredibly frustrating because I do not believe we should not do anything. In fact I think we should radically restructure society to fix it, including ending capitalism. Because that's what it's going to take. Which is why New Dems taking the house does not fix the problem, because they aren't going to do that. If you don't want to communicate that you think things are hopeless and we can't do anything, you shouldn't say things like "no one cares." "The odds of things getting better are longer every day." The pessimistic bullshit is what makes me think you believe that things don't matter. It's fine to be realistic that things are bad, but using defeatist language is making me think you have already given up. Things are on track for the climate to get much, much worse. We're at a baseline of disaster. Things can get better in the way that we can make things turn out less bad, which would be better than the current track of complete disaster.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:13
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This is so incredibly frustrating because I do not believe we should not do anything. In fact I think we should radically restructure society to fix it, including ending capitalism. Because that's what it's going to take. Which is why New Dems taking the house does not fix the problem, because they aren't going to do that. Do what you can. Take your victories as they are won. Do we need drastic restructuring of society to avoid the destruction we know is coming? Yes. We do. Will we get that, given the apparatus in the way? No. Can we take steps now to reduce that apparatus, make improvements and blunt the blow while we aim towards that goal? Yes. And people are trying towards those goals. There's a difference between being honest and being realistic, and shooting for the stars while you're still building the rocket means you aren't getting off the ground. Do what you can with your goal in sight. Change what you can and keep striving. But know your situation, otherwise you will hit a wall.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:14
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Fulchrum posted:Zelaya tried to rewrite the constitution to do away with term limits and declare himself president for life. The courts told him to gently caress off, and after he refused to comply, the military ousted him and the government was forced into exile. The Honduran system at that point was entirely self directed and at no point did the US intervene. Arguments against US actions here would require a direct military intervention on their part to restore Zelayas government. A president trying to extraconstitutionally change term limits doesn't justify arming a military dictatorship you numpty. The US could have just declared it a coup as it is legally obligated to do by its own statutes and cut off all military aid. And even if the US decided to overthrow the dictatorship and reestablish democracy that's not at all equivalent to meddling in an existing democracy's elections to put a favorable government in power.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:16
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Lemming posted:If you don't want to communicate that you think things are hopeless and we can't do anything, you shouldn't say things like "no one cares." No significant portion of the American electorate cares about our meddling in foreign elections, nor about kids starving in Yemen, nor about harmless civilian Palestinians being shot or bombed, nor about weddings being hit by missiles from drones. I used "no one cares" as a shorthand for this, not to mean literally no one cares about anything. When I say that "the odds are getting longer every day" I am referring to apocalyptic climate change, which in fact is on a very short timetable before it becomes unstoppable and self-reinforcing, and that if we don't make plans and change our ways while society is *relatively* well-equipped to handle it, it will instead be handled by the fascists, who will do it through genocide of the global south and PoC. I hope now that I've clarified this we can move this discussion into more productive territory.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:19
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This is so incredibly frustrating because I do not believe we should not do anything. In fact I think we should radically restructure society to fix it, including ending capitalism. Because that's what it's going to take. Which is why New Dems taking the house does not fix the problem, because they aren't going to do that. If you were being honest about it you wouldn't constantly add in your pet issues as the only way to solve the problem. It is frankly insane to say that there is no money to be made in green energy, therefore the only way to save the world is the abolishment of capitalism, but you just want the abolishment of capitalism, and therefore its the only solution, and anything less than that means we are doomed.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:20
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VitalSigns posted:jesus h christ dude what the gently caress Intervening in Honduras would have been cutting the financial aid that the US was giving them It's really a hosed up situation because on one hand the president who got exiled was trying to rewrite the Constitution to get rid of term limits (which cant actually be done without dissolving the constitution, the Honduran constitution explicitly lists the term limits and says that they are never able to be changed even if there was a constitutional amendment) On the other hand the military should have probably not exiled the guy and just instead seized and destroyed the ballots that were printed like they were directed to by the court.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:22
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Does anyone else have a strange feeling that Jacob Wohl had nothing to do with the Avenatti charge, except a dumbass tweet about it afterwards? It seems like if he did it would have been exposed immediately due to sheer stupidity, and Avenatti could have just used his tweet as an opportunity to distract. I hope I'm wrong of course, but I'm getting mixed vibes about this.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:22
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:BTW on a completely different subject check this out, this is why the finance industry capturing both parties has been such a disaster: Are there any explanations of the mechanism through which market based finance increases inequality? What is the process driving this relationship?
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Nov 20, 2018 00:23
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Fulchrum posted:If you were being honest about it you wouldn't constantly add in your pet issues as the only way to solve the problem. It is frankly insane to say that there is no money to be made in green energy, therefore the only way to save the world is the abolishment of capitalism, but you just want the abolishment of capitalism, and therefore its the only solution, and anything less than that means we are doomed. At 100 dollars a barrel there is 128 trillion dollars worth of oil in the ground right now. There is no way to stop capitalism from going after that much wealth and no way that green energy can compete with it. Very simple math there. Squalid posted:Are there any explanations of the mechanism through which market based finance increases inequality? What is the process driving this relationship? I haven't read the paper so I don't know but I would imagine the answer is: market-based finance distorts the outcomes for lower income strata, either through fees or through advertising. That's 100% guess though
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Nov 20, 2018 00:24
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exploded mummy posted:Intervening in Honduras would have been cutting the financial aid that the US was giving them Cutting off military aid to a coup (which by definition is no longer the government you made the aid agreement with) is not intervention, but even we take crazy pills and say that not supporting a coup with free weapons is intervening in a coup (and freedom is slavery and ignorance is peace and) there is a difference between good and bad things and "ah you say the US should stop overthrowing democracies and meddling in free and fair elections, but you want to US to do something about a bloody military dictatorship a-HA you hypocrite" is not the own you think it is.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:25
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