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Req.Martyr posted:Yeah, I just wish the characters took more of a "Yeah, okay, I get why you're a bastard... But you're still a real bastard. Top shelf poo poo syrup. So, screw ya." Instead of what happened. Honestly, if the game really wanted to go with this redemption, they should have then have the other shoe drop by having Akechi agree to confess his crimes once Shido is dealt with. Like, have Akechi rejoin for the Shido fight and limit his availability (i.e., you can't jump out of Shido's Palace and go through Mementos with Akechi), then the gang turns Akechi over to Sae for prosecution in the real world. And during all of this, Akechi is treated as a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my ally" and not as a real friend like the rest of the party are to Maaku. No platitudes or cheerful dialogue, just a long segment of awkward partnership until the boss is defeated.
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Nov 21, 2018 03:45
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Goro's exit is written with just enough ambiguity that I'm kind of stunned that Atlus isn't making a Persona 5 FES/Golden equivalent with an expansion of his SL.
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Nov 21, 2018 04:15
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As ever, the true enemy in Persona 5 is the writing.
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Nov 21, 2018 05:05
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AradoBalanga posted:As others have said, Haru and Futaba being at the forefront of forgiving Akechi is probably what hurts the scene the most. Haru explicitly states she does not forgive him.
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Nov 21, 2018 05:13
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AradoBalanga posted:As others have said, Haru and Futaba being at the forefront of forgiving Akechi is probably what hurts the scene the most. The fact that hours earlier in-game, the player was dealing with the fallout of Futaba creating her own Palace out of resentment and fear over her mother's death, and also Haru having to stop her father from using her as a tool to gain a higher political standing but ultimately losing him due to a mysterious assassin. Now, having found the person responsible, the natural reaction of rage and anger is replaced with....painfully forced attempts at redeeming the culprit because the plot says they have to. Akechi already knows his crimes will come to light when Shido goes down, that's explicitly part of his plan as he talks about it. Given he wants Shido to know he was beaten by Akechi he always planned to not kill Shido but instead humiliate him in some manner, perhaps driving him psychotic the way he was everyone else and letting Shido's natural personality come full on. Presumably part of this involves revealing that he's been working for Shido as an assassin in some manner. Akechi's plan is bad, make no mistake, but Akechi is a damaged teenager who was failed by the system and his parents. Then given what amounts to godlike powers over other people and the knowledge of who his shithead father is, I'm not surprised he went the worst direction possible with this knowledge. It makes him a bad but pitiful person, and an interesting character.
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Nov 21, 2018 05:34
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Coq au Nandos posted:As ever, the true enemy in Persona 5 is the writing. Unfortunately. As much as I love the game...it's story beats play out like a bad 4kids style saturday morning cartoon.
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Nov 21, 2018 05:36
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Philemon got really drunk before he handed out this set of Wild Cards.
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Nov 21, 2018 05:50
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I'm just amused that Shido's cognition of Akechi is that of a raving psychopath only barely hidden behind his "pleasant boy" exterior. In other words, Shido's basically had Akechi pegged for who he really was from the word "go."
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Nov 21, 2018 07:25
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MonsterEnvy posted:Haru explicitly states she does not forgive him. Coq au Nandos posted:As ever, the true enemy in Persona 5 is the writing.
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Nov 21, 2018 07:31
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You know you suck when you get your rear end kicked by somebody else's imaginary version of you.
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Nov 21, 2018 07:42
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EDIT: on second thought, sort of a spoiler
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Nov 21, 2018 07:43
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I can't remember the last time I was this frustrated by video game writing. Am I crazy, or were the last two games not nearly this sloppy?
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Nov 21, 2018 07:57
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Sydin posted:Akechi is such a hipster his sin isn't even a real sin, nice. Eh, they used Vanity on Madarame, there's no reason they couldn't have used the other old sin of Emptiness/Apathy/whatever other name it gets. I believe Emptiness was folded into Sloth and Vanity into Pride, with Envy being added in the most well-known set.
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Nov 21, 2018 08:01
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There were a zillion ways to make Akechi sympathetic and redeemable after the crap he pulled. Naturally this way goes with this stupidest.
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Nov 21, 2018 08:01
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It's incredible that the writers tried to pull an absolutely awful "you're our friend now!" move with Akechi and then deus ex machina'd it away by his evil doppelganger showing up they gave him a moment to...redeem himself? by fighting an enemy that literally just appeared for this one scene, saving the party from an issue they didn't know they had and, further, didn't need to have
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Nov 21, 2018 08:42
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I mean, I don't think Akechi is redeemed, that's not what has gone on here. He's passed his "mission" on to you in regards to Shido and gone down swinging, but he never accepted the friendship or the redemption of the Phantom Thieves, in fact he explicitly takes the option of self-sacrifice instead of facing his actions face on. And they're not wrong that if Akechi had the support of people like the phantom thieves before he killed people he wouldn't have killed people, given a big part of this story is that friends and positive social interaction help stop terrible things from happening. The problem is they're muddying the, you could've been a good person but you're not bit, with, we want to not fight you and have you on our team, and, we think that you should pay for your crimes but you don't need to die.
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Nov 21, 2018 10:26
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RareAcumen posted:I know right? Heck, they even made Akuma Lawful Good in SF4 for some reason. was this before or after he finished his apotheosis into an actual demon?
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Nov 21, 2018 10:48
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I do feel bad for Akechi. But I don’t think his crimes can be forgiven. And Shido needs to be tossed in the bin ASAP
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Nov 21, 2018 15:09
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Req.Martyr posted:Yeah, I just wish the characters took more of a "Yeah, okay, I get why you're a bastard... But you're still a real bastard. Top shelf poo poo syrup. So, screw ya." Instead of what happened. I wouldn't have minded something like: Zuko: Now, I know what you're going to say: she is my sister, and I should try to get along with her— Iroh: No. She's crazy, and she needs to go down.
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Nov 21, 2018 16:17
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Really curious to see what they do with Akechi in the spin-offs, since they'll have to actually differentiate him from Adachi.
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Nov 21, 2018 16:59
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Really Pants posted:He's the pits I appreciate this obscure Yakuza Kiwami 2 reference to Majima Construction
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Nov 21, 2018 17:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:And they're not wrong that if Akechi had the support of people like the phantom thieves before he killed people he wouldn't have killed people, given a big part of this story is that friends and positive social interaction help stop terrible things from happening. The problem is they're muddying the, you could've been a good person but you're not bit, with, we want to not fight you and have you on our team, and, we think that you should pay for your crimes but you don't need to die. You were dealt a bad hand and turned it into a crusading force for good. The game fucks up its own message on Akechi by demonstrating your altruism time and again.
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Nov 21, 2018 17:58
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Okay, moving this away from "this plot is bad and the writers are bad", how does Akechi KNOW Shido is his father? Did he sneak some skin or saliva sample while he wasn't looking for a DNA test? Does he remember what he looked like from when he was a child? Did his mother tell him what his dad looked like before she died?
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Nov 21, 2018 18:03
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kw0134 posted:The writers gently caress this up by putting you, the protagonist, in very similar situations and your better nature emerges almost all the time. Sure, we have friends, but this weakens the moral because you put the team together. You stood up with Ryuji. You reached out to Anne. You for whatever reason endured Yusuke. You flipped Makoto from narc to thief. On and so forth. You assembled your social circle from nothing. that's partly why Akechi freaked out - he and Joker both hit rock bottom and worked their way up from nothing, Akechi leveraging his powers to succeed by every "acceptable" metric (fame, money, influence, etc) whereas Joker assembled a team of ragtags to play vigilante with, and Akechi realizes that his accomplishments taste like ash in his mouth while the lanky prick sub-letting an attic has people willing to die for him like Adachi and Mitsuo before him, the "Emptiness" sin means that he puts on a front of having goals and morals and aspirations but inside he's totally hollow and screaming like a rat in a trap main difference is that Adachi realized this in himself and reveled in it whereas Akechi goes out mourning the person he could have been
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Nov 21, 2018 18:10
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Junpei posted:Okay, moving this away from "this plot is bad and the writers are bad", how does Akechi KNOW Shido is his father? Did he sneak some skin or saliva sample while he wasn't looking for a DNA test? Does he remember what he looked like from when he was a child? Did his mother tell him what his dad looked like before she died? The impression is that his mother told him about Shido.
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Nov 21, 2018 18:40
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Solitair posted:I can't remember the last time I was this frustrated by video game writing. Am I crazy, or were the last two games not nearly this sloppy? A tsunami took out a ton of work that they had done on this game, and it went through a TON of rewrites. It's very obviously overcooked and for that reason it doesn't really gel together, it feels like three or four coherent games Frankensteined together a lot of the time
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Nov 21, 2018 18:41
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sudonim posted:I appreciate this obscure Yakuza Kiwami 2 reference to Majima Construction I couldn't help thinking of that big moment near the end of Yakuza 0, when the man with the bat tattoo finally reveals himself. It's got almost everything in common with Akechi's last moments here, and yet it's better in literally every way. Maybe comparing other games to Yakuza 0 is a bit unfair.
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Nov 21, 2018 22:30
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Yeah, I could never really like Akechi due to the game's poor attempts at redeeming him. He chose the stupidest and most convoluted way to take out his (very paranoid) dad and it ended up being all for nothing. I felt bad for him when he explained his backstory, but his seemingly lack of remorse for his killings kind of took away whatever sympathy I had for him.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:07
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fivepapers posted:Yeah, I could never really like Akechi due to the game's poor attempts at redeeming him. He chose the stupidest and most convoluted way to take out his (very paranoid) dad and it ended up being all for nothing. I felt bad for him when he explained his backstory, but his seemingly lack of remorse for his killings kind of took away whatever sympathy I had for him. It's the lack of remorse that ultimately makes it all fall flat - even in OG Persona 4 Adachi did feel sorry for disappointing Dojima, but he's still treated like the scumbag that he was.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:16
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pretty much everything the fandom likes about Akechi (other than his fabulous hair) has at least one foot in the realm of fanon because of how undercooked and hastily resolved his actual plot arc turns out to be in the game proper he's just a schmuck who went out like one (i would say "died" but the scene itself probably keeps that ambiguous for a reason) Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Nov 21, 2018 |
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Nov 21, 2018 23:18
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Of course he went out like a chump. According to Elizabeth, the real power of the Wild Card is Social Links, with Persona Switching just being a fun benefit, and Akechi only had the one with Joker. I can't imagine he had one with Shido, though I like the idea of increasingly awful and awkward hangouts between the two.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:30
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You mean this game could have had something good and thought provoking, only to have the writing handle it as well as a washing machine handles a brick? I’m shocked.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:36
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Miz Kriss posted:handle it as well as a washing machine handles a brick I imagine a scene that starts like a silent film: a man quietly and deliberately placing the brick at the bottom of the washing machine. Shuts the door gently. Turns the knob. Presses the button.... *KA-CHUNK KA-CHUNK KA-CHUNK KA-CHUNK KA-CHUNK KA-CHUNK*
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Nov 21, 2018 23:41
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Robindaybird posted:It's the lack of remorse that ultimately makes it all fall flat - even in OG Persona 4 Adachi did feel sorry for disappointing Dojima, but he's still treated like the scumbag that he was. If they had put in a 'Oh god what have I done' moment I would've been more okay with the redemption attempt. It still would've been bad, but it wouldn't been as bad since hey, there's some actual remorse there. Instead, he's all "Woe is me, if I met you earlier I would've been a better person and not some serial killer!" Now that I think about it, I wish Haru and Futuba had given him a huge rear end speech about all the damage he's done.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:41
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Really Pants posted:I couldn't help thinking of that big moment near the end of Yakuza 0, when the man with the bat tattoo finally reveals himself. It's got almost everything in common with Akechi's last moments here, and yet it's better in literally every way. I didn't like his "sacrifice equals a sympathetic redemption" bit there either. It's a trope that shows up all the time in games and other media from Japan (and around the world, but less so there), and it isn't usually well done. Sure, Yakuza 0 handled it better than this game, but it still felt very ham handed to me. Possibly because of the cultural dissonance, I think.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:48
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GhostStalker posted:I didn't like his "sacrifice equals a sympathetic redemption" bit there either. It's a trope that shows up all the time in games and other media from Japan (and around the world, but less so there), and it isn't usually well done. Sure, Yakuza 0 handled it better than this game, but it still felt very ham handed to me. Possibly because of the cultural dissonance, I think. if anything yakuza 0's attempt was even more of a howler than this one
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Nov 21, 2018 23:50
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Yakuza 0 doesn't treat it as a redemption.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:56
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Really Pants posted:Yakuza 0 doesn't treat it as a redemption. There are a couple of shots of Kiryu remembering bat tattoo guy in a sympathetic manner as another person he knew who died as a result of the Dojima Family higher ups manipulation wrt the Empty Lot prior to one of the final boss fights, IIRC. When I saw that, it totally broke the mood because of the shots of who he memorialized before him, and turned something that was supposed to be somber and anger inducing towards the boss into anger/bewilderment towards the game for trying to do that. A couple of people playing the game that I've watched also had the same reaction. You could say it isn't supposed to be a redemption, but the way the game presents it and the reactions of people playing it certainly seem to think it was meant to be one.
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Nov 22, 2018 00:03
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DanielCross posted:Of course he went out like a chump. According to Elizabeth, the real power of the Wild Card is Social Links, with Persona Switching just being a fun benefit, and Akechi only had the one with Joker. Nah, the Social Link reversed when Shido got mad at him on the phone.
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Nov 22, 2018 00:57
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Oxxidation posted:that's partly why Akechi freaked out - he and Joker both hit rock bottom and worked their way up from nothing, Akechi leveraging his powers to succeed by every "acceptable" metric (fame, money, influence, etc) whereas Joker assembled a team of ragtags to play vigilante with, and Akechi realizes that his accomplishments taste like ash in his mouth while the lanky prick sub-letting an attic has people willing to die for him
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Nov 22, 2018 01:03
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