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Ague Proof posted:What is he basing this on, if anything? Something he saw on Fox?
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Nov 22, 2018 01:51
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Prester Jane posted:1. Yes, absolutely, profoundly so. The moment Joe Manchin is a deciding vote on a progressive piece of legislation he'll cross over to the Republican side of the aisle. Because he's an opportunistic sociopath who cares about his career Above All Else. Has he ever actually done so in a position where his individual vote mattered? I'm not being a smartass here, I'm legitimately asking, I haven't followed his voting records before 2016. Has he ever in his career been the specific individual who torpedoed a progressive bill/rescued a conservative one?
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Nov 22, 2018 01:51
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Josef bugman posted:Wasn't that at least in part because the USA just stepped to one side and let the military take over because the Muslim Brotherhood is mean about the USA? the egypt thing is extremely complicated but tldr i do like morsi more than sisi otoh it would have been a hecka lot harder to make an impact on the Egyptian junta than, say, Honduras, not least because Sisi's election was quasi-legitimate it would have needed to involve Obama invading Egypt to reinstall an authoritarian-leaning Islamist (because sanctions would have been neither viable nor sufficient), which is to say, literally everyone in the US would have found a reason to hate the policy correctly backing Morsi before things reached a crisis point would have been less impossible but still functionally impossible
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Nov 22, 2018 01:52
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Spiritus Nox posted:Has he ever actually done so in a position where his individual vote mattered? no
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Nov 22, 2018 01:52
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Burning_Monk posted:What kind of naval ship is Trump going to get named after him? None. Richard Nixon was a Commander in the Navy in WWII and they still haven't named a ship after him.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:53
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Spiritus Nox posted:Has he ever actually done so in a position where his individual vote mattered? no, as far as I can tell he never has. But he has voted the correct way multiple times when his vote was the one that mattered.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:53
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Also I missed it - is there a specific reason we're talking about Joe motherfucking Manchin again tonight or has the wheel just swung back around to his name
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Nov 22, 2018 01:54
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Wake up, Sheeple. Traffic jams on the day before Thanksgiving were unheard of before the mighty Trump came in and forced OPEC to drop gas process below $40/gal.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:55
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predicto posted:It's actually the exact opposite. Whenever Manchin is NOT the deciding vote, he will defer to appeasing the chuds in his extremely deep red, extremely white, extremely chuddish state, because his vote will have no effect on whether or not the legislation passes. Recent example - the Kavanaugh confirmation. Manchin refused to commit to anything until the GOP had 50+1 votes locked up, then he announced that he too would be voting to confirm. And you can bet that he didn't do so until he cleared it with Democratic leadership that there was no chance of victory. So you're go-to example of why this particular scorpion will not sting the frog is a situation wherein the scorpion stung the frog because he saw a benefit in doing so.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:55
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Spiritus Nox posted:Also I missed it - is there a specific reason we're talking about Joe motherfucking Manchin again tonight or has the wheel just swung back around to his name As far as I can tell it's the second one. Or rather, we started talking about Bad Dems and whether or not they should be expelled from the party, especially after being freshly elected, and inevitably we proceeded from the recently elected ideologically unacceptable ones to the Senate's Worst Dem and how he's going to switch caucuses and destroy the world.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:56
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Prester Jane posted:The entirety of my mortal existence. If you had ever fought against oppression you would understand. See, this is one trade I couldn't make. You probably wouldn't appreciate what I'm willing to do to save your life, but this is one mortal existence on which I'm not willing to compromise.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:56
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Apparently she made another alt https://twitter.com/truelauraloomer/status/1065386863765131264?s=21
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Nov 22, 2018 01:56
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Jaxyon posted:I had to check the date on this to see if it was current Don't worry, it's a greatest hit. https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/946531657229701120 https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/656100109386674176 https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/568387798924963840 https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/567105378132172800 https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/559852809232060417 https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/534200399025438720 And many, many more.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:56
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Spiritus Nox posted:Also I missed it - is there a specific reason we're talking about Joe motherfucking Manchin again tonight or has the wheel just swung back around to his name it's a day ending in y
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Nov 22, 2018 01:57
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Squalid posted:See, this is one trade I couldn't make. You probably wouldn't appreciate what I'm willing to do to save your life, but this is one mortal existence on which I'm not willing to compromise. And again, this is your privilege talking. You fundamentally don't understand that a struggle for your rights or a struggle to overcome oppression must of necessity be a struggle wnerein which you are willing to trade your mortal existence in order to accomplish your goals. This is how every advance in our nation has been accomplished. The labor movement didn't get machine-gunned by the military because no one was willing to die for a better future for others. You're willing to pay lip service to the concept of fighting fascism, but the moment it's time to roll your sleeves up you will peace out. You are the comfortable white moderate that Martin Luther King Jr warned about, and in this struggle against fascism you are less than useless. You are an active detriment.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:59
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Prester Jane posted:So you're go-to example of why this particular scorpion will not sting the frog is a situation wherein the scorpion stung the frog because he saw a benefit in doing so. No, my go-to example of why you are wrong is because it shows that you are wrong. Your assertion about Manchin's voting is completely contrary to Manchin's historical voting record. Manchin votes progressive when his vote matters, and votes with the chuds when it doesn't matter - the exact opposite of what you posted.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:00
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FlamingLiberal posted:Apparently she made another alt Making a parachute to evade a suspension is also a "account suspended" offense on Twitter, neh?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:04
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FlamingLiberal posted:Apparently she made another alt Judging by that accounts timeline, I'm guessing it's a low effort parody: https://mobile.twitter.com/TrueLauraLoomer/status/1017484539034243072 https://mobile.twitter.com/TrueLauraLoomer/status/1062410003770941442
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Nov 22, 2018 02:04
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Prester Jane posted:And again, this is your privilege talking. You fundamentally don't understand that a struggle for your rights or a struggle to overcome oppression must of necessity be a struggle wnerein which you are willing to trade your mortal existence in order to accomplish your goals. This is how every advance in our nation has been accomplished. The labor movement didn't get machine-gunned by the military because no one was willing to die for a better future for others. yo, you're increasingly talking yourself around to "people who disagree with me are dangerous counterrevolutionaries" and that's without getting into your cspam-thread / ongoing descriptive project additions of reasons and classifications for why people who disagree with you are fundamentally and irreparably bad while i understand becoming radicalized in the Age of Trump, you maaaay wish to reexamine the assessments you're reaching
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Nov 22, 2018 02:07
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predicto posted:No, my go-to example of why you are wrong is because it shows that you are wrong. Your assertion about Manchin's voting is completely contrary to Manchin's historical voting record. Manchin votes progressive when his vote matters, and votes with the chuds when it doesn't matter - the exact opposite of what you posted. He voted to give a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court to a serial rapist who is very open about his desire to use his position to restrict the rights of women and minorities. But you know the man only did that because his vote didn't actually matter.....kind of like how the rights of women/LGBT don't matter to you 
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Nov 22, 2018 02:07
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GreyjoyBastard posted:yo, you're increasingly talking yourself around to "people who disagree with me are dangerous counterrevolutionaries" You could only possibly be saying this because of your privilege. You are the problem.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:07
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Prester Jane posted:He voted to give a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court to a serial rapist who is very open about his desire to use his position to restrict the rights of women and minorities. This feels like it ends with you declaring that anyone who doesn't strap a bomb to their chest and march towards the nearest statehouse doesn't actually care about the rights of the marginalized t b q h
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Nov 22, 2018 02:08
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Not a Step posted:Have you ever cracked the spine on a history book? Even once? Yes I have, have you? Because 30 years ago there was a lot less difference between Republican Policies and Democratic ones. You had a lot more compromise and a lot more crossing of party lines. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing but it was a thing. Part of the strategy that the Right Wing has been pushing these last 40 years starting with Reagan was to drive the parties to more extremes in ideological terms. That was the entire point of Newt's "contact (on)with America" an effort to redefine the party of Lincoln into the party of white nationalism. Yes Republicans have always been the party of big business but they used to at least recognize the need to keep the workers somewhat happy and comfortable. Hell this craziness over abortion is a relatively new controversy, The Republican Party didn't become "pro-life" until Reagan and the rise of the "Moral Majority", You do realize that Carter was an evangelical and a huge part of the coalition that put him in office was evangelical voters. Now I should have said that the current party alignment along the current ideological lines is relatively new. In fact for the most part the new Democratic coalition is mainly made of not of people with similar ideological goals so much as a general opposition to the racism and bigotry of the Republican Party and yes that includes a lot of people who think that capitalism is all fine and good and yes because of their own privilege fail to grasp that you really can't separate economic justice from social justice and unfortunately it's real hard to get people to see that, particularly when most of those people are struggling themselves and fear that any improvements for others will result in deprivation for themselves. We really do tend to only be as moral as we can afford. Push people into a choice between the survival of themselves and their friends and families and the plight of strangers they're going to choose themselves, the exceptions are significant enough that they become famous for their sacrifice. But those are literally the exceptions that prove the rule. The fact that we remember people like MLK and Gandhi is because they made unusual choices of self sacrifice where they put others ahead of themselves. They are not the norm. Also don't confuse the fact that some things are getting worse (mainly driven by Republicans) and Democrats are getting worse. While the first is objectively true in many things the second is not. Note better isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction. Finally the main reason I engage in these battles isn't because I'm a centrist or because I think that the Democrats are good enough or left enough or that I think we should settle for less than what is needed. No it's because hopelessness is contagious and hopelessness leads to disengagement and depression. People who are disengaged and depressed don't fight, they don't get up after getting their asses kicked and go at it again. And that is what is needed. People who can fight, lose and not lose the will to continue to fight. As far as this no compromise as long as anyone is suffering idea goes. Have you really followed that to it's conclusion? You are saying that your ideological purity and desire to prevent suffering is more important than actually doing things that reduces the number of people suffering? You dismiss the people who have helped by things like the ACA because it wasn't perfect and some people aren't getting the help that they need you'd prefer that those who are getting they need because of it shouldn't get that help? Because that's the practical effect of that position. Should black people have accepted the continuation of Jim Crow as long as LGBT people were being discriminated against? I mean that's basically the argument that's being made when people claim that incrementalism is literally worse than doing nothing to improve anyone's lives. Maybe we shouldn't bother trying to improve education and the state of our poor unless we manage to figure out a way to improve the lot of all poor at the same time and we should just leave those people who's lives could have been improved suffering until that perfect solution is found? Because that's the what this argument of perfection with no compromise or nothing boils down to. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the argument of the Dems are bad brigade? If so please enlighten me on how not supporting incremental improvement in the lot of peoples lives as opposed to sitting around on my high horse of ideological purity makes me an enabler of the Fash. I'm not opposed to more radical change, I'm just willing to accept less in the short term while continuing to work for that goal in order to make peoples lives a little more bearable in the mean time.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:10
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Ague Proof posted:What is he basing this on, if anything? Here is my read on it, somebody smarter then me tell me if it tracks. Trump was talking big about Iran and embargoes. the Saudis raise production. Trump backed down on embargoes and China and India can buy Iranian oil. Supply out runs demand. prices drop. Then also USA has become one of the largest oil producing countries. More supply. Also demand is down around the world (Not USA but Europe and other places they believe in global warming). That sound right?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:11
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Prester Jane posted:He voted to give a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court to a serial rapist who is very open about his desire to use his position to restrict the rights of women and minorities. Yes, I know that Manchin only did that because Kavanaugh was already getting confirmed and Manchin wanted to get reelected in a deeply red state. That's been his M.O. for his entire career. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go back to my job as guard of the Birmingham Jail or something else bad that you are going to attribute to me. predicto fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 02:11
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GreyjoyBastard posted:yo, you're increasingly talking yourself around to "people who disagree with me are dangerous counterrevolutionaries"
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Nov 22, 2018 02:13
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GreyjoyBastard posted:yo, you're increasingly talking yourself around to "people who disagree with me are dangerous counterrevolutionaries" People who disagree with me are not dangerous counterrevolutionaries. There are no dangerous counterrevolutionaries and I would greatly appreciate you not inserting words in my mouth. Privileged white males however who don't understand the nature of our conflict are much more likely to get in the way of the work that actually needs done rather than contribute to resisting fascism. If you're willing to justify a decision that sold women and LGBT people up the river, then you're less than useless to the cause of resisting fascism. This doesn't make you a dangerous revolutionary that should be purged and I'm not even vaguely arguing for that. It does however make you a moron who should be verbally challenged whenever you spout your idiocy in the public sphere. Also if you're going to bring up my thread I don't think Cooperators are inherently bad or anything like that and you would have to be willfully misreading my friend to come to that conclusion. Cooperators are a perfectly normal portion of human society and will continue to be so until humanity has evolved beyond the point that you or I would recognize as human. That sad, history has demonstrated time and time and time again that Cooperators will side with fascists over leftists when the chips are down. Or at the very least they will refuse to resist fascism and constantly talk themselves into waiting for someone else to stand up until it's already too late. To bring this conversation back around to the topic of Pelosi that started it all, I would make this point. We are currently running large child concentration camps in the desert. Nancy Pelosi does not consider large concentration camps full of children in the desert to be nearly the threat to democracy that a small restaurant owner refusing service to the monsters running said camps is. That's why Pelosi is useless in her current position- she doesn't know how to resist or fight back against Fascism and all she'll wind up doing is enabling it. As she's demonstrated repeatedly over the past couple years. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 02:14
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Prester Jane posted:That's why Pelosi is useless in her current position- she doesn't know how to resist or fight back against Fascism and all she'll wind up doing is enabling it. As she's demonstrated repeatedly over the past couple years. I regret to inform you that fascism was baked into this country's DNA from day 1.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:20
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FlamingLiberal posted:Apparently she made another alt Countdown until it gets banned. E: Looks like it's a parody account?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:20
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Prester Jane posted:People who disagree with me are not dangerous counterrevolutionaries. There are no dangerous counterrevolutionaries and I would greatly appreciate you not inserting words in my mouth. Privileged white males however who don't understand the nature of our conflict are much more likely to get in the way of the work that actually needs done rather than contribute to resisting fascism. If you're willing to justify a decision that sold women and LGBT people up the river, then you're less than useless to the cause of resisting fascism. This doesn't make you a dangerous revolutionary that should be purged and I'm not even vaguely arguing for that. It does however make you a moron who should be verbally challenged whenever you spout your idiocy in the public sphere. fair, i guess, even if I disagree with a ton of the other implications in this paragraph regarding the nature of other posters in this subforum; i perhaps should have used milder language quote:Also if you're going to bring up my thread I don't think Cooperators are inherently bad or anything like that and you would have to be willfully misreading my friend to come to that conclusion. Cooperators are a perfectly normal portion of human society and will continue to be so until humanity has evolved beyond the point that you or I would recognize as human. That sad, history has demonstrated time and time and time again that Cooperators will side with fascists over leftists when the chips are down. Or at the very least they will refuse to resist fascism and constantly talk themselves into waiting for someone else to stand up until it's already too late. you routinely, in both that thread and this, make very strong implicit moral judgements on 'Cooperators' including in this very post "I don't think Cooperators are inherently bad, I just think they're pro-fascist and will never not be" edit: okay fine, i can't in good conscience make a technically incorrect assessment that I notice, you're saying they're currently irreparably awful, not regardless of context irreparably awful quote:To bring this conversation back around to the topic of Pelosi that started it all, I would make this point. We are currently running large child concentration camps in the desert. Nancy Pelosi does not considere large concentration camps full of children in the desert to be nearly the threat to democracy that a small restaurant owner refusing service to the monsters running said camps is. That's why Pelosi is useless in her current position- she doesn't know how to resist or fight back against Fascism and all she'll wind up doing is enabling it. Like she's demonstrated repeatedly over the past couple years. if you are correct in this over the next two years, remind me and I will eat the requisite crow, but I think you are not Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 02:22
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Prester Jane posted:And again, this is your privilege talking. You fundamentally don't understand that a struggle for your rights or a struggle to overcome oppression must of necessity be a struggle wnerein which you are willing to trade your mortal existence in order to accomplish your goals. This is how every advance in our nation has been accomplished. The labor movement didn't get machine-gunned by the military because no one was willing to die for a better future for others. Sacrificing yourself is really the easy part. The hard choices are all about who else you expect to go with you. Unfortunately it tends to take a lot more than one life to change the world.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:22
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:Countdown until it gets banned. I kinda hope Twitter leaves that account but keeps banning her reregs when she tries to tell people that not her. I feel bad for that since she's a legit crazy person.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:23
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Ague Proof posted:What is he basing this on, if anything? A yearning to be loved so vast and empty that it cannot possibly be satisfied. Also stupidity.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:23
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Prester Jane posted:If you're willing to justify a decision that sold women and LGBT people up the river, then you're less than useless to the cause of resisting fascism. this is where your reasoning goes off the rails. No one here is justifying the Kavanaugh confirmation. No one here likes Manchin, and the only time anyone would vote for him is if there was a GOP chud on the other side of the ballot who was even worse. Again, no one here supports the Kavanaugh confirmation. On top of that, you have zero idea about the lives of anyone on here that you keep insulting as morons and cooperators. Thinking that Prester Jane is wrong is not the same as opposing progressive causes - you are not that important and you are not that self-evidently correct every time you pontificate. and no, Nancy loving Pelosi does not support child concentration camps ffs. predicto fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 02:24
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Remember when Loomer exploded on twitter about filthy liberals slashing her tires, and then she posted a pic and her tire was just really really old and had popped?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:28
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Skex posted:Maybe I'm misunderstanding the argument of the Dems are bad brigade? If so please enlighten me on how not supporting incremental improvement in the lot of peoples lives as opposed to sitting around on my high horse of ideological purity makes me an enabler of the Fash. I'm not opposed to more radical change, I'm just willing to accept less in the short term while continuing to work for that goal in order to make peoples lives a little more bearable in the mean time. well the big problem with "incremental improvement" is that when the republicans get into power they make everything incredibly worse very quickly. if you look at the last 30 years things have gotten worse and worse because dems either cooperate in making things worse (free trade) or fail to effectively fight the republicans (abortion). so if your explicit goal is incremental improvement you're never going to accomplish anything. also "idealogical purity" is all well and good to sneer at but you need it to some extent or the party will be too spread out to actually cooperate to pass legislation, as happened during the ACA. it's possible this next session will be better, but that remains to be seen.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:28
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LibertyU/status/1065261591090946048 Those are some heavy hitters
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Nov 22, 2018 02:29
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Stexils posted:well the big problem with "incremental improvement" is that when the republicans get into power they make everything incredibly worse very quickly. if you look at the last 30 years things have gotten worse and worse because dems either cooperate in making things worse (free trade) or fail to effectively fight the republicans (abortion). so if your explicit goal is incremental improvement you're never going to accomplish anything. No doubt you definintely need to whip people in line and move them left - once they get elected. The Dems have not been as good on that as they should be, no doubt. Hopefully it will get better now that they are increasingly galvanized against Trump's madness. But first you have to get them elected. I look for more ideological purity from a politician from Seattle than one from West Virginia, but I'll take them both in order to seize the reins of power. Then when I have the power, I let the Seattle person set policy and the West Virginia guy can do what he needs to do to get reelected (as long as I can count on his vote when it matters). predicto fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 02:31
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do all of the people currently defending manchin think his support of trump is a non-issue? what about him supporting punishing football players for protesting the murder of black people, or him normalizing the idea that jus soli can be stripped away? why is it ok for us to have a racist dem helping normalize the republican's fascist behavior?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:31
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Stexils posted:well the big problem with "incremental improvement" is that when the republicans get into power they make everything incredibly worse very quickly. if you look at the last 30 years things have gotten worse and worse because dems either cooperate in making things worse (free trade) or fail to effectively fight the republicans (abortion). so if your explicit goal is incremental improvement you're never going to accomplish anything. while I routinely clash with the Demsbad folks, I have swung hard away from incrementalism after the Obama Experiment he did a ton of good stuff, most of which was, well, incremental or under-the-hood, and even in the (many) areas where he was unequivocally good the Average American Voter neither noticed nor gave a poo poo, leading to the Age of Trump Obama Incrementalism is good, but it's not sufficient in the face of the Republican Party / low-info voters (who generally are not morally culpable for being low-info) / capitalism.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:31
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