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Ague Proof posted:Dan Crenshaw, the cuddly fascist. You feel like SNL isn't in favor of this at this point, after Trump and Crenshaw.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:31
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GreyjoyBastard posted:
Again, you are not understanding what a Cooperator is. A Coperator is a person who bases their worldview upon whatever they have to believe in order to avoid interrupting their personal status quo. They base their Authority on who controls resources- the more resources you control the more Authority you have in the more respect you deserve. An entrenched Cooperator class has a strong tendency to side with fascists over leftists because they conceptualize all conflict as being a contest over the control of resources. (The Cooperator worldview is all about cooperating with whoever controls resources, basically.) Leftists inherently fight for control of resources, whereas fascist largely ignored resources and instead focusing on changing the dominant narratives within society. This causes an entrenched Cooperator class to view leftists as a credible threat to their personal status quo, and fascist as a not credible threat to their personal status quo. Thusly the entrenched Cooperators will oppose a leftist and side with the fascists because they think the fascists are too incompetent to ever unseat them and can be manipulated. This has happened repeatedly in history and is happening in South America right now. The problem isn't Cooperators- the problem is an entrenched cooperator class that has come to accept massive income inequality as a necessary part of maintaining their personal status as well. You're going to have Cooperators at any human society and in point of fact they are actually very very very important to having a functional Society. However, Narrativists/fascists tend to supplant any entrenched Cooperator class if the society in question comes under sustained pressure or internal disruption. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 02:33
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The problem with incrementalism is it relies on the opposing party to not simply burn everything down out of spite, and, well, here we are.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:38
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i keep seeing people saying that manchin is harmless, that he only ever votes for republican legislation "when it doesn't matter", but that seems to be a very privileged way to look at his actions. paying lip service to racism, sexism, xenophobia does in fact matter. it normalizes those things. it helps republicans cause they can legitimately point to him and say "see! even democrats realize these policies are necessary!" it's also really creepy to me to see people saying we should throw minorities under the bus if it gets us more power (and that's exactly what you're doing when you normalize the behavior of the republicans, which people in this thread seem perfectly fine with manchin doing). in 2016, i was told repeatedly that minorities had to be careful of the left cause we would gladly trade away their issues to indulge our privilege. now i see that happening right in this thread and it's p distressing.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:38
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which one of you tweeted this
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Nov 22, 2018 02:38
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predicto posted:and no, Nancy loving Pelosi does not support child concentration camps ffs. You are putting words in my mouth and I would appreciate you not doing that. I am no way stated or implied that she supports child concentration camps, I actually stated that she views child concentration camps as less of a threat to democracy than a small restaurant owner refusing service to the people running said child concentration camps. I reached this conclusion because I judge people by actions. Nancy Pelosi's actions make it very clear that small restaurant owners refusing service to monsters running child concentration camps is not as big an issue as the actual camps themselves.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:39
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Condiv posted:do all of the people currently defending manchin think his support of trump is a non-issue? what about him supporting punishing football players for protesting the murder of black people, or him normalizing the idea that jus soli can be stripped away? because the racist GOP guy who West Virginia otherwise would elect would do all those things, and plenty more that are even worse AND would be a consistent, reliable vote for Trumpism in every possible way. ps - no one here likes Manchin. But we hate Manchin less than Jim Inhofe or Ted Cruz or Tom Cotton. Sadly, those are the current options in a state where Trump won 69% to 25%.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:39
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predicto posted:because the racist GOP guy who West Virginia otherwise would elect would do all those things, and plenty more that are even worse AND would be a consistent, reliable vote for Trumpism in every possible way. so we have to indulge in racism, sexism, and xenophobia for the greater good? that's the sum total of your argument?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:42
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Prester Jane posted:You are putting words in my mouth and I would appreciate you not doing that. Don't be pedantic. For someone who attributes the worst of motivations and weak moral fiber to everyone who disagrees with her, you are in no position to lecture anyone. I'm bailing out of this conversation before I pull a ban. Have a good Thanksgiving everyone.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:44
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Condiv posted:so we have to indulge in racism, sexism, and xenophobia for the greater good? that's the sum total of your argument? No, minorities like you and I have to indulge racism, sexism, and xenophobia for the greater good. He gets to sit on his comfortable white rear end and preach to us about how important it is that we take this one for the team.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:45
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Condiv posted:so we have to indulge in racism, sexism, and xenophobia for the greater good? that's the sum total of your argument? would you rather have a generic republican senator or joe manchin?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:46
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The way to think of Manchin is functionally* as a sleeper agent. He's disguised himself as the enemy. He's largely within their ranks. And when his decisions don't meaningfully influence the outcome, he does poo poo in step with the enemy. But at a few key calculated moments when he can make a meaningful difference, like the ACA recall, he steps in and sabotages the enemy and sets them back, then slips back into his disguise. *the word 'functionally' is, of course, carrying a lot of weight, because I don't think Manchin is that willfully clever and is, in fact, personally a big shithead. But I think that's the role he's currently serving for the Democrats, and I think it is serving huge tangible good that we would not have if we replaced him a true CHUD Trumpist.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:46
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predicto posted:Don't be pedantic. For someone who attributes the worst of motivations and weak moral fiber to everyone who disagrees with her it doesn't help that you just admitted we have to sacrifice our allies for the greater good : it doesn't show much in the way of moral fiber to say that we have to support a racist, sexist, xenophobe for some nebulous benefit
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Nov 22, 2018 02:46
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goethe.cx posted:would you rather have a generic republican senator or joe manchin? none of the above. i cannot support someone who thinks jus soli is up for debate you say it's for the greater good, but in my lifetime these sacrifices made in the name of the greater good haven't actually improved the lot of minorities
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Nov 22, 2018 02:49
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Condiv posted:it doesn't help that you just admitted we have to sacrifice our allies for the greater good : Literally no one is saying we have to like or support Manchin. I don't think I've *I've* ever seen anyone suggest that, or that we wouldn't be better off with an actual progressive in his place.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:50
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Condiv posted:so we have to indulge in racism, sexism, and xenophobia for the greater good? that's the sum total of your argument? Unfortunately, unless we are voting West Virginians we really aren't in a position to indulge or not indulge in anything. But if I was in West Virginia, I would have voted for Manchin over Patrick "even worse Fascist and overt environmental rapist" Morrissey.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:50
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If Manchin is a sleeper Republican who hates browns and healthcare and loves rape why doesn't he just switch parties if he is interested solely in his own re-election and political future, this would surely be the best way for him to ensure he holds his seat as long as he wants? he could switch any day. McConnell would love to have him. but he doesn't???
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Nov 22, 2018 02:50
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my bony fealty posted:If Manchin is a sleeper Republican who hates browns and healthcare and loves rape why doesn't he just switch parties Manchin would get absolutely obliterated in a Republican primary.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:51
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Z. Autobahn posted:Literally no one is saying we have to like or support Manchin. I don't think I've *I've* ever seen anyone suggest that, or that we wouldn't be better off with an actual progressive in his place. yeah, if a progressive can win WV, more power to 'em if a progressive comes within a reasonable distance of credibly challenging Manchin such that it might have been DNC et al support that saved him, I'll probably join in demsbadding but so far that hasn't happened
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Nov 22, 2018 02:51
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Z. Autobahn posted:Literally no one is saying we have to like or support Manchin. I don't think I've *I've* ever seen anyone suggest that, or that we wouldn't be better off with an actual progressive in his place. Jarmak literally called people who refuse to support Machinn monsters. Evilweasel and a number of others have said effectively the same. The quoted post is just willful ignorance. Z. Autobahn posted:The way to think of Manchin is functionally* as a sleeper agent. He's disguised himself as the enemy. He's largely within their ranks. And when his decisions don't meaningfully influence the outcome, he does poo poo in step with the enemy. But at a few key calculated moments when he can make a meaningful difference, like the ACA recall, he steps in and sabotages the enemy and sets them back, then slips back into his disguise. This is embarassing fanfiction wherein you are lying to yourself that the scorpion will not sting you even though it stings minority's whenever it loving feels like it.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:53
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GreyjoyBastard posted:yeah, if a progressive can win WV, more power to 'em spoken like someone sitting on their comfortable white rear end or something something
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Nov 22, 2018 02:54
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Z. Autobahn posted:Literally no one is saying we have to like or support Manchin. I don't think I've *I've* ever seen anyone suggest that, or that we wouldn't be better off with an actual progressive in his place. a number have already quoted me and asked me to affirm my support of manchin predicto posted:Unfortunately, unless we are voting West Virginians we really aren't in a position to indulge or not indulge in anything. ok. its your choice to support stripping away jus soli. just don't expect me to think you're a good person for it. my bony fealty posted:If Manchin is a sleeper Republican who hates browns and healthcare and loves rape why doesn't he just switch parties i'm pretty sure prester jane already explained this upthread, but him being a mccain in a party that wants robert spencers doesn't do him much favors electorally, while the dems bend over backwards and help him crush opponents to his left while he's a dem.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:54
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GreyjoyBastard posted:yeah, if a progressive can win WV, more power to 'em paula swearengin was in reasonable distance of credibly challenging him considering how she did and how actively the party was supporting manchin in the primaries.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:56
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Prester Jane posted:Jarmak literally called people who refuse to support Machinn monsters. Evilweasel and a number of others have said effectively the same. The quoted post is just willful ignorance. Our options here are literally 'scorpion that stings 50% of the time' and 'scorpion that stings 100% of the time'. That's it, those are the only options on the table. Choosing the first scorpion is both rational and profoundly defensible. Also, I'm a minority who's directly suffered racist harassment from the alt-right, as has my loving child, so pretty cool job making assumptions that literally anyone who doesn't side with you is some kind of craven privileged rich white, and not, you know, threatened people making difficult practical choices to ensure their short-term survival.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:56
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Condiv posted:
oh ffs. no wonder you have a Ted Rall avatar
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Nov 22, 2018 02:56
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Simply think tactically, using logic, from outside of the self imposed boundaries of your identity politics
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Nov 22, 2018 02:56
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The Democrats will have as many seats as they had in 2006, maybe 1 or 2 more.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:58
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Grapplejack posted:You feel like SNL isn't in favor of this at this point, after Trump and Crenshaw. SNL selling out to terrible conservatives for ratings was a plot point in Bob Roberts, which was released in 1992. Not much has changed. Also Bob Roberts was released 26 years ago and is still timely. If anything the film was overly optimistic about the trajectory of American politics.
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Nov 22, 2018 02:59
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Condiv posted:paula swearengin was in reasonable distance of credibly challenging him considering how she did and how actively the party was supporting manchin in the primaries. what are you talking about? Swearengin was never remotely close in the polling, and she lost by 40 percentage points. In what fantasy world is that "reasonable distance?"
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Nov 22, 2018 03:00
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predicto posted:oh ffs. if you don't support that, then why would you vote for a politician that does? am i supposed to think it's better that you only give support to him cause he might side with you on things you think are more important. predicto posted:what are you talking about? Swearengin was never remotely close in the polling, and she lost by 40 percentage points. In what fantasy world is that "reasonable distance?" a complete newcomer losing by 40% in a stacked primary against an incumbent is pretty good. if she had the support of the democratic party (or if they had stayed out of the primaries like they should've) she would have probably done a lot better and may have unseated him.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:00
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Joe Manchin is poo poo garbage but we’ve discussed this topic to death and it’s clear no one is going to budge. Until Joe Manchin actually makes a headline y’all should let it go.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:00
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Z. Autobahn posted:Our options here are literally 'scorpion that stings 50% of the time' and 'scorpion that stings 100% of the time'. That's it, those are the only options on the table. Choosing the first scorpion is both rational and profoundly defensible. Also, I'm a minority who's directly suffered racist harassment from the alt-right, as has my loving child, so pretty cool job making assumptions that literally anyone who doesn't side with you is some kind of craven privileged rich white, and not, you know, threatened people making difficult practical choices to ensure their short-term survival. I didn't call you privileged though and don't think your disagreements stem from privilege. I don't think everyone who disagrees with me is doing so from a position of privilege and have directed my criticisms of privilege at specific posters. FWIW I think you're wrong for reasons that have nothing to do with privilege. It is my firm stance that Manchin will sting us all many many many times before this is all said and done. Further I be live very strongly that a scorpion who is within allied ranks that only stings 50% of the time is, in the long run, orders of magnitude more damaging than a scorpion that stings you 100% of the time but is a recognized enemy. Edit: as per LK I'm dropping the topic.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:05
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Lightning Knight posted:Joe Manchin is poo poo garbage but we’ve discussed this topic to death and it’s clear no one is going to budge. Until Joe Manchin actually makes a headline y’all should let it go. i googled to see if he had a tweet in the last 24 hours or was attending a barbecue in Nowhere, WV, but i got nothing i don't suppose i could segue into a discussion of regional barbecue?
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Nov 22, 2018 03:10
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/LibertyU/status/1065261591090946048 reminder that Lib U only just recently allowed good old hetro white married couples to show The Aeffection in public( and to sleep in one bed on campus dorms) Oh and also The Race Mixing.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:11
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Cradling joe manchin in my arms, that these vicious blows fall upon my body rather than his
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Nov 22, 2018 03:17
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We should make it a bannable offense to bring up Joe Manchin if he hasn't so much as tweeted about policy in the past week IMO, I'm fuckin' tired of these conversation tailspins
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Nov 22, 2018 03:20
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/LibertyU/status/1065261591090946048 I didnt know there was a spare Jerry Falwell.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:23
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John Roberts thinks people are very very stupid.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:23
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mcmagic posted:John Roberts thinks people are very very stupid. He's not wrong
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Nov 22, 2018 03:24
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mcmagic posted:John Roberts thinks people are very very stupid. Donald Trump is President. They are.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:27
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