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CarForumPoster posted:Name any aircraft where >1% of metal parts is AM. Now consider that the other >99% of parts were all signed off on by a M&P person. Clearly if the concern is "what industry has metallurgist jobs" its not the one that produces a very very tiny fraction of the parts in all industries, even if that industry is likely to expand. That wasn't your original argument. You said that laser powder bed fusion AM produces crappy parts. I provided two examples where that's clearly not the case, one commercial and one government, and now you're moving the goal posts. I have no problem agreeing that metal AM is not widely utilized, but there are absolutely jobs for metallurgists in the field and more relevant to the original point those jobs are in more enjoyable locations than a typical steel mill. More importantly, as you agree the industry is expanding.
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Nov 20, 2018 07:28
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:That wasn't your original argument. You said that laser powder bed fusion AM produces crappy parts. I provided two examples where that's clearly not the case, one commercial and one government, and now you're moving the goal posts. I have no problem agreeing that metal AM is not widely utilized, but there are absolutely jobs for metallurgists in the field and more relevant to the original point those jobs are in more enjoyable locations than a typical steel mill. More importantly, as you agree the industry is expanding. My point in the quality was that it isn’t going to explode in market size because the quality needs a revolution to take advantage of the cost savings. We’ve been talking about jobs the whole time.
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Nov 20, 2018 12:18
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CarForumPoster posted:My point in the quality was that it isn’t going to explode in market size because the quality needs a revolution to take advantage of the cost savings. We’ve been talking about jobs the whole time. Given the examples from industry and government I would argue that you have failed to make that point. GE has invested billions into AM, including acquiring two major AM players. They made AM an integral part of their LEAP engines, a system worth billions in sales. AM has been used to make titanium implants for over a decade. SpaceX has been launching metal AM parts into space since 2014. Part quality is not a problem. As a whole AM has seen a roughly 20% increase in market every year for the last few years; currently it's a $7 billion industry. China has projected a 20% annual growth with the intent of driving AM revenues within China to $3 billion by 2020. The market for metals alone is around $1 billion right now and is projected to grow by an order of magnitude over the next decade. It's definitely a good industry to be involved in.
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Nov 20, 2018 13:51
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Selecting what type of AM process to use and what alloy or composite to use is still going to happen. Someone is still going to have to show analysis that the AM part meets the thermal/structural/vibroacustic/etc... characteristics required. On the supply side those materials used in AM are still going to have to come from mines and mills except even more process controlled so as not to junk up the AM process. I guess I don't see how changing from 'acquire lump of aluminum alloy X and mill it down' to 'acquire AM alloy Y and build it up' is going to affect the mechanical/materials engineering aspect of it at all.
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Nov 20, 2018 17:58
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I should clarify that I’m pretty happy with the location that I’m at (Spokane, WA) and not working in a steel mill. There’s plenty of opportunities for metallurgists / materials engineers that isn’t steel. That being said, a substantial portion of my graduating class went to work at various steel mills in the Midwest and at least at my school that’s who was doing serious recruiting on campus.
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Nov 20, 2018 18:24
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Murgos posted:Selecting what type of AM process to use and what alloy or composite to use is still going to happen. Someone is still going to have to show analysis that the AM part meets the thermal/structural/vibroacustic/etc... characteristics required. On the supply side those materials used in AM are still going to have to come from mines and mills except even more process controlled so as not to junk up the AM process. The AM process itself becomes part of what determines the material properties, which is one of the reasons I think it's a great field for metallurgists. For example you can have two parts made of maraging steel that display disparate properties depending on how the part was oriented, supported, fabricated, what inerting gas was used, etc. AM metal processes are closer to welding beds of powder than working with bulk materials. It offers you some fascinating opportunities to play with microstructure and makes parts that respond in certain fashions, but it also makes for some significant challenges. The real advantage that I believe AM offers is in making parts that cannot otherwise be fabricated using other processes. The LEAP engine nozzle from Boeing is a good example; the geometry of the channels is such that making it any other way than via AM is impractical if not impossible.
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Nov 20, 2018 18:41
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spf3million posted:This is something I wish I would have considered more carefully before I took my first job in oil/gas after majoring in chemical engineering. This is all a matter of level of snobbery about location. If you are really snobby about location, and can only imagine yourself living in the richest areas of major cities, it might be a good idea to not go into engineering at all. Manufacturing jobs are usually not found in major city centers. If you are technically-oriented, it would make sense to study something like computer science that would let you work in a service industry, like a bank or an advertising/media company.
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Nov 22, 2018 11:49
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silence_kit posted:This is all a matter of level of snobbery about location. This is a terrible post. Engineering does not exclusively mean manufacturing, and there are plenty of engineering jobs that are either within a major city or a commutable distance. I live in the suburbs of Washington DC and the area is packed with opportunities.
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Nov 22, 2018 12:49
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:This is a terrible post. Engineering does not exclusively mean manufacturing, and there are plenty of engineering jobs that are either within a major city or a commutable distance. I live in the suburbs of Washington DC and the area is packed with opportunities.
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Nov 22, 2018 13:32
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:This is a terrible post. Engineering does not exclusively mean manufacturing, and there are plenty of engineering jobs that are either within a major city or a commutable distance. I live in the suburbs of Washington DC and the area is packed with opportunities. Again, it is all a matter of level of snobbery about location. If you are a mechanical engineer, odds are that you aren't going to be working and living in Manhattan or SF. Sure, living in the DC suburbs allows you to look down on people who are living outside major metro areas, but believe me, there are people out there (to be clear, this is not me) who are looking down on your way of life. This is why I'm saying this discussion about location is all a matter of level of snobbery. In an earlier post, someone mentioned getting a job as a mechanical engineer for Google, Apple, etc. This is not that easy. Google and Apple employ very few mechanical engineers. However, they employ armies of software developers. If you are really really status obsessed, it might be a good idea to not study engineering. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 13:45
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silence_kit posted:Again, it is all a matter of level of snobbery about location. If you are a mechanical engineer, odds are that you aren't going to be working and living in Manhattan or SF. Sure, living in the DC suburbs allows you to look down on people who are living outside major metro areas, but believe me, there are people out there (to be clear, this is not me) who are looking down on your way of life. This is why I'm saying this discussion about location is all a matter of level of snobbery. I’m not sure how you’re getting the idea that mechanical engineers can’t get a job in any city or state in the country, it’s probably the most adaptable engineering degree out of the traditional choices.
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Nov 22, 2018 14:50
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... having preferences for where you want to live is snobbery now? OK.
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Nov 22, 2018 15:37
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Frinkahedron posted:I’m not sure how you’re getting the idea that mechanical engineers can’t get a job in any city or state in the country, it’s probably the most adaptable engineering degree out of the traditional choices. I'm not sure how you are getting that idea from my recent posts. I'd suggest reading them more carefully. mekilljoydammit posted:... having preferences for where you want to live is snobbery now? OK. Uh, yeah, it often is? What planet do you live on? silence_kit fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 15:52
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silence_kit posted:Uh, yeah, it often is? What planet do you live on? The planet where people have genuine ideas about the types of environment where they would be happy living? I mean setting your strawman about living in Manhattan or SF aside for a bit, there's a big drat difference between living in, say, the outskirts of Tacoma, WA and living in the western part of North Dakota.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:10
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mekilljoydammit posted:The planet where people have genuine ideas about the types of environment where they would be happy living? These ideas are pretty often heavily motivated by social & class-based expectations. mekilljoydammit posted:I mean setting your strawman about living in Manhattan or SF aside for a bit, there's a big drat difference between living in, say, the outskirts of Tacoma, WA and living in the western part of North Dakota. It isn't a strawman. While you might look down on living in rural North Dakota, it certainly is the case that others are looking down on you for your lifestyle. This location, neighborhood, etc. discussion is all about a matter of degree, and it is pretty often a dog whistle for classism. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 16:22
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silence_kit posted:It isn't a strawman. While you might look down on living in rural North Dakota, others might be looking down on you for your lifestyle. This location, neighborhood, etc. discussion is all about a matter of degree, and it is pretty often a dog whistle for classism. Ugh. See, that second sentence there is where you're going out into left field; you're automatically assuming everyone is elevating urban living and looking down on more rural areas. So, concrete example - I grew up in the relatively rural midwest. My non-working life includes a variety of hobbies where I go do stuff outdoors. If you transplanted me into Manhattan I would probably turn into a hermit outside of working hours because there's nothing equivalent to what I do, and I have mild social anxiety. I've tried living in cities, I wasn't happy, I wouldn't do it again. I know people who are happier in urban areas too, for the same sorts of reason. So I think it's kind of ridiculous to place value judgements on preferences for one sort of environment or another. Thus, I think it's a least a decent idea to ask, "hey, is this engineering specialty going to pidgeonhole me into an area where I wouldn't be happy living?"
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Nov 22, 2018 16:37
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mekilljoydammit posted:Ugh. See, that second sentence there is where you're going out into left field; you're automatically assuming everyone is elevating urban living and looking down on more rural areas. So, concrete example - I grew up in the relatively rural midwest. My non-working life includes a variety of hobbies where I go do stuff outdoors. If you transplanted me into Manhattan I would probably turn into a hermit outside of working hours because there's nothing equivalent to what I do, and I have mild social anxiety. Where you live is a status signifier. I'm not really going out into left field here. This isn't an oddball idea. Admittedly it isn't the only motivation people have for choosing where they live, when they get to decide where they want to live. And it is true that if you are really status-obsessed, you will tend to see it in everything, even when it might not really be there. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:19
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Classism rants in the Engineer thread, well I never.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:22
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Accusations of dogwhistle declarations of classism aside, it's a good idea to think about where you want to live and what you want to do before getting too locked into a particular path. It's also not impossible to change, just do the best to have a diverse skill set and always keep learning. When you're starting out your degree is more of a suggestion than a mandate, especially with the more general degrees like aerospace or mechanical engineering.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:24
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silence_kit posted:Sure, living in the DC suburbs allows you to look down on people who are living outside major metro areas, but believe me, there are people out there (to be clear, this is not me) who are looking down on your way of life.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:25
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Dik Hz posted:Those people and you can choke on a bag of dicks. There are assholes out there who look on you for having to work. So what does your classist bullshit have to do with anything? Let alone anything in this thread. Report him for derailing and move on. On topic: engineering is a fun job.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:30
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Dik Hz posted:Those people and you can choke on a bag of dicks. There are assholes out there who look on you for having to work. So what does your classist bullshit have to do with anything? Let alone anything in this thread. If you are so concerned with post quality in this thread, then why did you make this garbage post? edit: I try not to look down on people for living where they do--I'm actually from the sticks, sort of. I'm just pointing out a common motivation for people who, frankly, belittle other places in the US & loudly display preferences for where they like to live. I was taught that it is kind of a rude thing to do. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 17:30
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I don't feel like either side being discussed is wrong. Automation often is implemented by big city engineering firms who swoop in for a project, but the day-to-day engineering and optimization is performed by locals. Both are equally important IMO, and I have observed tensions between the two groups, but nothing bad natured outside of specific individuals. It's not wrong to seek employment in a city in search of things like convenient specialty doctors and private schools. I find I could make way more money out in the country at a plant, but desire varied projects more. I respect and appreciate the engineers that I encounter who live the small town life. Some of the stuff they talk about makes me jealous involving access to nature and knowing and being in community with coworkers. Obviously there are limitations too, but rarely does that come up as a major factor in my conversations.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:31
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silence_kit posted:Where you live is a status signifier. I'm not really going out into left field here. This isn't an oddball idea. It just seems like you're one of the ones sitting there with a hammer from the tone of your comments; to be less cute sure it's a status signifier but it really felt like you were the only one taking that tack. Presumably most/all of us are/will be engineers here, and so of relatively similar status, so I'd like to think we can discuss aspects of deciding career path that people earlier on in their careers wouldn't have thought of; "here's tradeoffs for you to consider" type of thing, without putting value judgements on what part of the tradeoffs people weigh more heavily. I could have made more money / done different stuff / etc if I'd wanted to move to other areas, but I preferred where I live now. I'd say that preferring to live in a "lower status" area but trading that for "more status" as measured in wealth / etc has its own set of implications just as much as going the opposite direction.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:34
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silence_kit posted:If you are so concerned with post quality in this thread, then why did you make this garbage post?
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Nov 22, 2018 17:45
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Dik Hz posted:Maybe instead of trying not to look down on people, you should instead not look down on people. People are people regardless of where they are. If you think that's what I'm doing in this thread, then you are really not getting what I'm trying to say, sorry.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:46
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silence_kit posted:If you think that's what I'm doing in this thread, then you are really not getting what I'm trying to say, sorry. Edit: Trust me. I am. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 17:48
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Dik Hz posted:Homeboy, I am picking up what you're putting down. But let's just leave this here. I'll stop posting if you do. But I'm sorry, you are definitely not getting it.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:49
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I live in a city and I don't even think about "the sticks". I'm sure it's the same the other way round.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:21
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At the risk of starting a different kind of moralizing derail, I have a question for the engineer thread. I have an MS ME, with coursework and research focused on heat transfer and fluids. In particular I enjoyed radiation heat transfer, and my thesis involved combined fluid and radiation modeling for a solar thermal energy project. I have worked the last 4ish years since then at an energy storage startup. I went to grad school with the goal of working on renewable energy projects. For various reasons I am looking to move on from this startup, but I’m at a bit of a loss as to where to go. I’d love to keep doing green energy work, but it’s not exactly a booming industry for engineers with my skill set. At a minimum, I want to NOT work for a defense contractor or the fossil fuel industry. But virtually every job posting I’ve found for an ME with heat transfer or fluids emphasis is in one of these two fields. (I’m in Southern California) Are there other places to apply my skills that I’m overlooking? Should I give up on trying to use my masters, and just look for more typical ME design jobs that I might have been qualified for out of undergrad (consumer products, HVAC, etc)? I feel like any position that doesn’t leverage my heat transfer and fluids background will have to be lower on the totem poll and force me to take a pay cut. Maybe that’s the choice I’m making by refusing defense/fossil fuels? One obvious answer is NASA (ie JPL), and obviously that’d be a dream come true for the 10 year old in me, but those positions are extremely competitive so I need to cast a wider net.
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Nov 22, 2018 19:08
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bawfuls posted:focused on heat transfer and fluids. In particular I enjoyed radiation heat transfer Otherwise you'd probably have to give up on your specialty and start working on a new specialty. If you do find something in the renewable field where your skills apply I'd be interested in hearing about it.
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Nov 22, 2018 21:38
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Yeah I have considered openings at a gas turbine manufacturer on that premise. I have little hope that I will be able to find something explicitly green energy, I just want to not actively contribute to the problem at this point. Radiation heat transfer is quite specialized obviously. I’m fine doing more common heat transfer or fluids stuff, but the same industry limitations tend to apply. Guess I studied the wrong poo poo for what I want to actually do. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 22:54
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bawfuls posted:Yeah I have considered openings at a gas turbine manufacturer on that premise. I have little hope that I will be able to find something explicitly green energy, I just want to not actively contribute to the problem at this point. Satellites have pretty significant thermal management issues with many solutions involving how great space is for radiating in to.
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Nov 23, 2018 04:10
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CarForumPoster posted:Satellites have pretty significant thermal management issues with many solutions involving how great space is for radiating in to. It’s also quite difficult/competitive to work on satellites that aren’t weapons related. I’d love to do it though!
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Nov 23, 2018 05:36
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bawfuls posted:indeed they do SpaceX maybe? NASA? You may want to look outside of California. You may also have to accept that "defense contractor" can mean literally anything. The DoD procures a lot of stuff, much of which doesn't directly have a military application. For example a green energy product you're working on now could be procured for military use later. What are your specific requirements with respect to weapons? Satellites themselves aren't armed. Beer4TheBeerGod fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Nov 23, 2018 |
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Nov 23, 2018 05:45
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SpaceX has awful labor practices from everything I’ve heard and read. Not going to work 60-80 hour weeks as the default condition. I’m happy to work on communications satellites or others that monitor earth science or space, but I don’t need to work on spy satellites that help the US military drop bombs on people. NASA is definitely on my list, but I’m looking for other places to apply as well because I can’t pin my hopes on them. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Nov 23, 2018 |
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Nov 23, 2018 05:57
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paternity suitor fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Mar 15, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2018 05:20
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paternity suitor posted:I get where you're coming from, but most satellites aren't "weapons related", even though they are designed and manufactured by defense contractors. I worked on a bunch commercial comm satellites over the years, but that work was done at a defense contractor. I also worked with NASA/NOAA on a weather/sensing satellite at the same defense contractor; if you worked at NASA you would probably be dealing with the all kinds of defense companies. I'm not sure what separates a company like SpaceX from the satellite division of someone like Boeing or Lockheed tbh, other than "image" SpaceX is a defense contractor.
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Nov 25, 2018 07:32
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paternity suitor posted:I'm not sure what separates a company like SpaceX from the satellite division of someone like Boeing or Lockheed tbh, other than "image" As you’re getting at, absolutely 0 other than when ULA/Boeing/LM gets a contract it’s called a contract and when SpaceX gets one it’s called a subsidy.
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Nov 25, 2018 10:59
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bawfuls posted:At the risk of starting a different kind of moralizing derail, I have a question for the engineer thread. I work at a large company doing research in the field of semiconductor lasers. Thermal management is an important aspect of their operation. Thermal management is important in all computers, from phones (don't want it to burn up) all the way to supercomputers (cooling requires power/money). Obviously, JPL/NASA is wicked cool too, but be sure to look at the trend of NASA's budget over the last 25 years.
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