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What I don't get about the full Dems are a waste crowd is how to do expect to change everything if you kick out every single member not for full communism now like do you think there's hundreds of millions of secret super leftists waiting to vote in red states?
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Nov 22, 2018 17:51
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Squalid posted:Ok, now I think I'm beginning to understand. This seems like good practical reform, although I'm not sure how this conclusion squares with your criticism of neoliberalism, as this effort to both increase freedom of movement and institutionalize the status of those workers seems like the neoliberal solution par excellence. Unfortunately liberals want illegal immigration to create a desperate and disposable workforce to exploit for greater profit
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Nov 22, 2018 17:51
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:oh please, germany had a welfare state in the 1880s well before militarized borders. hey CLB, what do you think China's border, immigration, and citizenship policies sbould be regarding Southeast Asia
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Nov 22, 2018 17:52
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Squalid posted:Ok, now I think I'm beginning to understand. This seems like good practical reform, although I'm not sure how this conclusion squares with your criticism of neoliberalism, as this effort to both increase freedom of movement and institutionalize the status of those workers seems like the neoliberal solution par excellence. Corporations would be against it cause they only want migrant workers as an underclass they can exploit. Putting them in equal ground as citizens (if such a concept continued to exist after open borders) means immigrant labor can’t be bullied into lovely working conditions anymore, and capitalists would hate everything about that
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Nov 22, 2018 17:52
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Wilhelm posted:soviets unironically did this - it isn't a stretch to say an authoritarian dictatorship can force people around pretty easily the Chinese have a big presence in Africa and South/Central America but I think it's just because they're investing a lot of money and not because they're abusing immigration policies to genocide the locals
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Nov 22, 2018 17:53
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Prester Jane posted:Only true in the short-term, and only provides the brief illusion of safety. In the long run there is no meaningful difference between an enabler/collaborator and a fascist. In the long run we're all dead eventually anyway.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:53
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So it totally turns out that the left was right and as the GOP goes full white nationalist, liberals follow and tack hard into white supremacy
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Nov 22, 2018 17:53
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socialsecurity posted:What I don't get about the full Dems are a waste crowd is how to do expect to change everything if you kick out every single member not for full communism now like do you think there's hundreds of millions of secret super leftists waiting to vote in red states? Demanding our leaders not appeal to fascist rhetoric like Hillary did is not “full communism now” purity testing It’s basic decency
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Nov 22, 2018 17:54
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socialsecurity posted:What I don't get about the full Dems are a waste crowd is how to do expect to change everything if you kick out every single member not for full communism now like do you think there's hundreds of millions of secret super leftists waiting to vote in red states? the majority of americans want a social democracy. you should also consider turnout numbers.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:55
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Condiv posted:Corporations would be against it cause they only want migrant workers as an underclass they can exploit. Putting them in equal ground as citizens (if such a concept continued to exist after open borders) means immigrant labor can’t be bullied into lovely working conditions anymore, and capitalists would hate everything about that more seriously i've seen proposals of open or open-ish borders where legal residency and work is easy and more or less universal but poo poo like voting and being locked into paying income tax regardless of geographical location (for example) are locked behind someone going "I really want to make this tradeoff" Fallom posted:the Chinese have a big presence in Africa and South/Central America but I think it's just because they're investing a lot of money and not because they're abusing immigration policies to genocide the locals Chinese imperialism isn't all sunshine and puppies (insert gauche joke about cuisine here), but they've learned quite a bit from America and Britain and outsource their violence pretty much entirely to cooperative local governments. I'm interested to see whether their imperial model holds up long-term / does so better than the British and American models. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 17:56
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socialsecurity posted:What I don't get about the full Dems are a waste crowd is how to do expect to change everything if you kick out every single member not for full communism now like do you think there's hundreds of millions of secret super leftists waiting to vote in red states? This is a pretty asinine comparison that relies purely on binary thinking. Not wanting to support people who are open xenophobes using racist right-wing rhetoric to justify their policy of corporate fellatio is not some unreasonable purity test. It's the bare minimum to be able to scrape together any ideology or political party worthy of the title. People critical of Democratic leadership aren't arguing to reject everyone who doesn't embrace full communism now. We're arguing to reject people who have made it very clear that they are not left-wingers and will enable fascism for as long as they see a personal benefit in doing so.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:56
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VH4Ever posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/22/hillary-clinton-europe-must-curb-immigration-stop-populists-trump-brexit (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 22, 2018 17:58
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socialsecurity posted:What I don't get about the full Dems are a waste crowd is how to do expect to change everything if you kick out every single member not for full communism now like do you think there's hundreds of millions of secret super leftists waiting to vote in red states? Most people just want their lives to get better.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:59
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Wilhelm posted:This is a very utopian well-wishing view that would rapidly lead to mass chaos and riots; giant waves of impoverished people without adequate resources or work will rapidly turn to crime and form ghettos. Unless the solution is Europe forms forced labor colonies or something I think you could look into your heart and find a final solution to this problem
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Nov 22, 2018 17:59
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Wilhelm posted:This is a very utopian well-wishing view that would rapidly lead to mass chaos and riots; giant waves of impoverished people without adequate resources or work will rapidly turn to crime and form ghettos. Unless the solution is Europe forms forced labor colonies or something Why? Unless you think there's not enough jobs in the entire world for the world's population, what's the problem? With truly open borders, if one place runs out of jobs then the migrants will go somewhere else that does have jobs. With real freedom of movement, they won't just keep piling endlessly into countries that are already in economic crisis - that's a situation that's created by the complicated patchwork of mobility barriers and arcane rules that countries are erecting in order to block migrants, forcing them to desperately choose whereever they can rather than being able to take the situation of their destination country into account. Even the US sees illegal immigration over the southern border go way down when the economy here takes a dip.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:00
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Squalid posted:In the long run we're all dead eventually anyway. There are going to be humans after you and I bet those humans don't want to live under fascism- and will wonder why their predecessors didn't stand up when they had the opportunity to do so. I want to urge you in the strongest possible terms to learn to think beyond just yourself and your personal experience.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:00
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GreyjoyBastard posted:more seriously i've seen proposals of open or open-ish borders where legal residency and work is easy and more or less universal but poo poo like voting and being locked into paying income tax regardless of geographical location (for example) are locked behind someone going "I really want to make this tradeoff" Yeah I’m kinda ambivalent on citizenship as a strong concept if we have open borders. Having citizenship be hard to obtain just means immigrants have one disadvantage that can be exploited that citizen labor doesn’t, and I feel like all of those disadvantages have to be erased to end the capitalist exploitation of immigrant labor
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Nov 22, 2018 18:00
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helluva thread. https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1065648292955136000
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Nov 22, 2018 18:02
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Main Paineframe posted:Why? Unless you think there's not enough jobs in the entire world for the world's population, what's the problem? With truly open borders, if one place runs out of jobs then the migrants will go somewhere else that does have jobs. With real freedom of movement, they won't just keep piling endlessly into countries that are already in economic crisis - that's a situation that's created by the complicated patchwork of mobility barriers and arcane rules that countries are erecting in order to block migrants, forcing them to desperately choose whereever they can rather than being able to take the situation of their destination country into account. Even the US sees illegal immigration over the southern border go way down when the economy here takes a dip. heck, we even have a pretty interesting case study in the EU despite what morons who voted for Brexit may think, the entire population of Poland has not up and moved to England
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Nov 22, 2018 18:03
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Prester Jane posted:There are going to be humans after you and I bet those humans don't want to live under fascism- and will wonder why their predecessors didn't stand up when they had the opportunity to do so. I want to urge you in the strongest possible terms to learn to think beyond just yourself and your personal experience. Thankfully, I'll never have kids, so none of them will be my descendants, and I'll be too dead to care a few hundred million post-climate change apocalypse dirt farmers think of some of my choices.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:04
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Stexils posted:refugee resettlement would actually be extremely easy in the us if the government actually used the tools it has. for example if the feds built a bunch of public housing and an unskilled jobs program for those who couldn't find work you could scale it up more or less indefinitely. It would and it would be a huge benefit and we've done it successfully it the past. It's the dumbest thing, everybody wins. Parts of the country that need growth get it. Refugees get to live.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:05
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Rural America has hugely disproportionate influence in our electoral system, seems perfectly fair that they also receive a disproportionate share of the suffering caused by the morons they vote for.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:everyone in this forum that stan'd for Hillary should have to don a sackcloth, bath in ashes, and shut the gently caress up forever lmao As someone who stan'd for Hillary, I endorse this message.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:08
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Zeno-25 posted:Rural America has hugely disproportionate influence in our electoral system, seems perfectly fair that they also receive a disproportionate share of the suffering caused by the morons they vote for. Hell yeah I love it when . . . poor people and minorities suffer? You do realize who actually work those farms right.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:09
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Thankfully, I'll never have kids, so none of them will be my descendants, and I'll be too dead to care a few hundred million post-climate change apocalypse dirt farmers think of some of my choices. See now when you're willing to get into an extended knuckleduster with the privileged they'll eventually start volunteering personal truths like this- without any self awareness of what this underlying attitude implies about them as individuals. Me over here? I care about those few hundred million post climate change apocalypse dirt farmers because I see them as me. I personally empathize with their situation- I'd like to do what I can to prevent it. And I don't consider self indulgent narcissism to be a sufficient excuse to justify inaction.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:10
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it says something that hillary took a look at why she lost and arrived at the exact same racist conclusion as trump from an entirely different angleKerning Chameleon posted:Thankfully, I'll never have kids, so none of them will be my descendants, and I'll be too dead to care a few hundred million post-climate change apocalypse dirt farmers think of some of my choices. now you're thinking like a baby boomer
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Nov 22, 2018 18:12
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+Prester Jane posted:See now when you're willing to get into an extended knuckleduster with the privileged they'll eventually start volunteering personal truths like this- without any self awareness of what this underlying attitude implies about them as individuals. I'm only worried that people like OP won't get their comeuppance before they die it'd be super unfair that sociopaths and privileged fucks don't get sent to prison for this poo poo
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Nov 22, 2018 18:13
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Most people just want their lives to get better. You and not all of them agree with you on how that's done. You need a cooalition to get enough votes to actually change anything.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:13
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socialsecurity posted:You and not all of them agree with you on how that's done. You need a cooalition to get enough votes to actually change anything. How has reaching out to fascists been working out for you
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Nov 22, 2018 18:14
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Phi230 posted:Unfortunately liberals want illegal immigration to create a desperate and disposable workforce to exploit for greater profit Admittedly I may have overstated the neoliberal desire to normalize immigrant status. Looking at what they say there appears to be a fair amount of debate on the subject, but for example this was Milton Friedman's opinion on the subject Milton Friedman posted:Look, for example, at the obvious, immediate, practical example of illegal Mexican immigration. Now, that Mexican immigration, over the border, is a good thing. It’s a good thing for the illegal immigrants. It’s a good thing for the United States. It’s a good thing for the citizens of the country. But, it’s only good so long as it’s illegal. What a piece of poo poo. Condiv posted:Corporations would be against it cause they only want migrant workers as an underclass they can exploit. Putting them in equal ground as citizens (if such a concept continued to exist after open borders) means immigrant labor can’t be bullied into lovely working conditions anymore, and capitalists would hate everything about that I don't think you can make a general statement about what corporations want. I mean yeah they want to exploit workers but they also prefer to do it legally without the threat of the Feds raiding their meat packing plants. I think immigration reform which vastly increases the number of workers who can stay here legally on temporary work visas would be supported by a lot of corporations now reliant on undocumented workers. It would probably not be supported by a lot of working people who have vague fears about competition in the labor force.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:14
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there aren't going to be any post-climate change dirt farmers you idiots. you absolute buffoons. obviously every square inch of earth will be covered in toxic seawater.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:15
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Phi230 posted:Hell yeah I love it when . . . poor people and minorities suffer? Automated John Deer tractors.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:15
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Squalid posted:Admittedly I may have overstated the neoliberal desire to normalize immigrant status. Looking at what they say there appears to be a fair amount of debate on the subject, but for example this was Milton Friedman's opinion on the subject Well the thing is, we no longer really live in a vertically integrated economy so larger corporations, lets say a supermarket, can buy food from farms that exploit undocumented labor with impunity. The corporations largely aren't liable for such things. Third party liability binch
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Nov 22, 2018 18:16
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i am harry posted:Automated John Deer tractors. Yeah I too make poo poo up to so I can pretend migrant laborers don't exist
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Nov 22, 2018 18:17
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socialsecurity posted:What I don't get about the full Dems are a waste crowd is how to do expect to change everything if you kick out every single member not for full communism now like do you think there's hundreds of millions of secret super leftists waiting to vote in red states? We're not even asking for "full communism now", we're asking for people who aren't corporate slaves but apparently this is always unpragmatic and a wild fantasy. also socialist policies always poll extremely well even among the right in many cases, wheras centrist policies(which are just more polite right-wing policies) never drum up any enthusiasm despite the elites thinking that the republican base will flock to them any day now
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Nov 22, 2018 18:18
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Squalid posted:I don't think you can make a general statement about what corporations want. I mean yeah they want to exploit workers but they also prefer to do it legally without the threat of the Feds raiding their meat packing plants. I think immigration reform which vastly increases the number of workers who can stay here legally on temporary work visas would be supported by a lot of corporations now reliant on undocumented workers. It would probably not be supported by a lot of working people who have vague fears about competition in the labor force. depends on the field and how often they actually get raided. for example the farmers who have to pay normal wages instead of "illegal immigrant" wages for crop pickers would definitely oppose such a measure. plus businesses getting punished for hiring illegal immigrants is fairly uncommon anyway. there's a tacit acceptance of the practice in the US or else the fines and penalties would be way harsher for the business.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:19
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Zeno-25 posted:Rural America has hugely disproportionate influence in our electoral system, seems perfectly fair that they also receive a disproportionate share of the suffering caused by the morons they vote for. Why hasn't this population that's experienced generations of poor educational infrastructure in conjunction with the most sophisticated and well-funded propaganda apparatus in the history of mankind being targeted specifically at them- overcome their personal biases and taught themselves to think beyond the propaganda? It's like they're not even trying. Good thing it's a just world and people always get what they deserve. Or maybe elitist hand waving away of the underlying problems that are causing those populations to vote in this manner is the wrong approach. (Maybe we should learn from Hillary Clinton's mistakes instead of trying to repeat them.) Rural America has a hugely disproportionate say in American politics because their poverty and isolation have long made them a population ripe for psychological/economic exploitation. If you want to help Rural America out of its plight you're going to have to do more then wag your finger at them. You're going to need a plan to address that exploitation and provide them resources and empathetic * media that will help them overcome the propaganda they've literally spent their entire lives being bombarded with. *empathetic is not sympathetic. We need to reach them where they are as human beings and offer them a clime-able ladder. This goal is accomplished with empathy and educational outreach, not with appeals to their latent racism via either rhetoric or policy. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 18:20
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also centrism has been failing world-wide and centrists inevitably put fascists in power rather than allow any leftist backlash, so the "pragmatic" thing to do is get rid of centrists entirely if you want progressive policies
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Nov 22, 2018 18:20
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Phobic Nest posted:Is there a variation of the Trolley Problem where inaction means that everyone dies, including the operator? Now there's a purity test. The point of the exercise is that your action to choose the lane with fewer people is still a direct action you are taking which gives you moral culpability. The inaction is (quite arguably) freeing yourself from that. It has nothing to do with being a "purity test", it's each individual deciding how much evil they are comfortable enabling in the world. No one is a hero for voting Dem. socialsecurity posted:What I don't get about the full Dems are a waste crowd is how to do expect to change everything if you kick out every single member not for full communism now like do you think there's hundreds of millions of secret super leftists waiting to vote in red states? I don't know, ask the people in the same fevered imagination this strawman came from how they feel
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Nov 22, 2018 18:20
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Phi230 posted:Yeah I too make poo poo up to so I can pretend migrant laborers don't exist Migrant laborers are not collecting soybeans; They're here in Colorado picking bell peppers. I already mentioned them.
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Nov 22, 2018 18:20
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