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Mantis42 posted:Racial equality is impossible without socialism. Liberal cosmopolitanism is not enough. This is bullshit. Equality in general is less as a society is freeer race equality can exist in a capitalist society however class equality will still be a constant issue.
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Nov 25, 2018 08:53
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theflyingorc posted:What absolute horseshit And another 10 jumping jacks 
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Nov 25, 2018 08:57
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Chimp_On_Stilts posted:But I've recognized your posts by that old av for years Yeah, I have to get used to it myself now. End of an era...
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Nov 25, 2018 09:03
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Party Plane Jones posted:https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1056811593177227264 This social credit poo poo is 100% coming to the US as soon as the 1% and corporate boards of directors realize you can monetize it via tying your social credit to the rent you pay and/or interest rates you receive and pay. Not to mention the money that “fixers” will make to improve Skylyr’s score when he was caught stealing or vandalizing something at school, so he can still get into an Ivy League (while the other kid that was present gets hosed out of attending college for the rest of their life). This is the excuse to implement Jim Crowe in the 21st century and they’re already getting hard over it.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:07
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captainblastum posted:People know that humans are literally apes right? We are great apes, together with orangutans, chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas. The feeling that I got from Skex's post was that humans are irrational and illogical and at our core animals. It was a lovely way to phrase it, and deserved admonishment, but I don't think that it was what everybody seems to be assuming here. This is exactly the the context that I was trying to express. When I referred to ignorant apes I meant humanity collectively, myself included. I wasn't thinking about how the Right uses the term as derogatory and due to my own intellectual blinders did not consider that some would take my comment as dehumanizing. For that I apologize. As to the larger discussion the entire point that I was trying, apparently ineptly to convey is that once you go down the path of accepting that your enemy is irredeemably evil, you have stepped on a dark path that leads monstrous ends. And no this isn't some theoretical question, this is exactly what occurred in literally every socialist revolution to date. The problem is that once one accepts the premise that state violence based on ideology is acceptable you have given the state permission to declare what ideological beliefs are acceptable and which are sanctionable, and once that bridge is crossed is when the bad stuff happens. Stalin's purges and terrors, the cultural revolution in China, and these are actions that were not limited strictly to attacking the right as what happened is what always happens when power is allowed to aggregate into the hands of a few individuals. They invariably use that power to secure their position. Targeting not just the obvious enemies but also allies who disagree with their choices on non ideological grounds. Stalin's purges, the Soviet gulags and atrocities such as the Tiananmen square massacre where no small part of why American liberals did not want to be associated with communist ideology and is a key component in understanding American foreign policy throughout the Cold War. Also it is important to understand that these were not just western propaganda, Khrushchev laid out Stalin's crimes in the "secret speech" which was widely disseminated. Now I personally believe that Eisenhower hosed us by not taking Khrushchev's overtures for peace seriously. Then again Eisenhower is the same shady fucker who gave a farewell address warning us about the military industrial complex which was a monster of his own creation and it sure has hell would have helped a lot more if he'd done something about it when he actually had the power to do something. Of course then JFK who Gore Vidal describes as a war monger doubled down on anti-communism and did what Democrats to often do and waged war on a bunch of brown people so that the Republicans couldn't attack them for being "weak" on defense (though if Gore Vidal is correct he was more than happy to do it) It's hosed up and honestly a huge part of why we're in this mess that we are in today. To be clear, I'm not trying to justify what happened, I thought that it was stupid even back when I was flirting with libertarianism as a teenager. Because I felt that if capitalism was truly superior it should be able to win in a fair contest on a level playing field. (yes I was extremely naive, it kind of goes hand in hand with being 17). Oh just to be clear, it's generally minority communities that catch the brunt of such political violence whether it's being committed by the Right or the Left. Because minorities are easier to demonize and by definition tend to lack the numbers and power to effectively defend themselves. Now to try and bring this back on topic, this is D&D as in discussion and debate. In order to actually have a meaningful discussion or debate and it be a productive use of time and devolve into the typical sniping I believe that it is necessary to accept that someone can be wrong without being evil. Which brings me back to the bit about my use of the term ignorant in my il phrased statement. Everyone is ignorant about something, hell I'd dare say that we're all ignorant about most things. There should be no shame in that nor should it be viewed as dehumanizing as it is a very human trait. Because none of us know what we don't know, we are all limited by our circumstances, opportunities and experiences. We have each only experienced life from our own perspective we've each consumed different media (including books) that have shaped our views on life. None of us had any say in whether we were born wealthy or poor or into privilege of class, ethnicity, gender or sexuality. There wasn't a character generator where we got to pick our race and determine who our parents would be. Further not a single human being alive today had a hand in the creation of these systems of injustice. This is why I am opposed to any system that rewards or punishes people for things outside of their control and no taxing someone's wealth is not a punishment just to head off any suggestion that I'm trying defend existing privileges. Every political opinion I hold flows from the core belief that no one should be blamed or praised for something over which they had no control. Things like support for equal rights for minorities is the only option from that premise, and yes that includes refugees.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:09
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Oh Snapple! posted:That's true and fair. But I'm also largely of the mind that it was irresponsible at best and malicious at worst of any any parties that worked to push poo poo in line with the "breaking up the big banks" horseshit that very much had the intent of minimizing the importance of economic equality in folks heads behind it. I don't disagree but I think that is a bit of a finer wedge used to define ideological lines among in-groups rather than a blunt hammer against blanket economic equality. That hammer is the last 60+ years of targeted propaganda and coordinated revisionist history that has tainted even the word socialism until relatively recently. All it took to improve the perception of Bernie's platform was simple language that referenced equal access guarantees along with specifically highlighting how a broad policy would have specific impact within minority communities. This biggest hurdle to overcome is the fundamental incompatibility between capitalist and socialist philosophy that politicians are desperately trying to kick under the table and pretend doesn't exist. Economic equality polls well when in broad terms, but so do a lot of contradictory liberal positions.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:11
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Skex posted:This is exactly the the context that I was trying to express. When I referred to ignorant apes I meant humanity collectively, myself included. I wasn't thinking about how the Right uses the term as derogatory and due to my own intellectual blinders did not consider that some would take my comment as dehumanizing. Can’t believe you post this dumb poo poo evoking donald j trumps “many sides” rhetoric instead of spending time with your 10 year old son.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:15
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quote:As valuable as a good credit score will be, nothing on Earth will be as valuable as the mountains of big data that must be collected to make such a system work. That data will be the property of whoever will be collecting it, but that doesn’t mean that those people or companies won’t share it or sell it to the right company or individual. jesus christ "sure this is going to create a permanent underclass and surveillence state, but think of how lucrative it will be if you can get in on it!!!!" Dad Jokes fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 09:16
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LeoMarr posted:This is bullshit. Equality in general is less as a society is freeer race equality can exist in a capitalist society however class equality will still be a constant issue. Class and race are intertwined in America. Legal equality, cultural cosmopolitanism ("PC culture"), welfare programs, etc etc have all failed to achieve racial equality in the US because the actual solution - large scale redistribution of property to the black proletariat - is incompatible with liberal values. Honestly just look at how scared shitless people are about what is relatively mild land reappropriation programs in South Africa.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:17
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CAROL posted:Can’t believe you post this dumb poo poo evoking donald j trumps “many sides” rhetoric instead of spending time with your 10 year old son. The privileged are unaccustomed to feeling insecure and do not process the experience very well. It's all part of the learning process. Edit: the structure of that skex post is incredibly revealing. Note how it's a wandering diatribe that struggles to find a point that consists mostly of skex congratulating himself or his correct opinions whilst declaring that fighting back or disrupting the status quo is the same as fascism that will destroy civilized Society. It's a privileged coward who knows he has been found out and is struggling vainly to find an intellectual justification for his insistence that others make the sacrifices that he refuses to ever make himself. He wants the world to change but only if it never ever alters or risks his privileged position in life. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 09:17
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You can't have racial equality without socialism because racism is a vehicle for class division as class division is a vehicle for racism.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:21
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Prester Jane posted:The privileged are unaccustomed to feeling insecure and do not process the experience very well. It's all part of the learning process. Anyone who disagrees with me on any topic is doing so through privilege, and i never have to show how they are privileged - If they weren't privileged they would agree with me on every topic
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Nov 25, 2018 09:33
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theflyingorc posted:I'm glad you found the word privileged so you can just say anyone that disagrees with you is it, regardless of if it is even slightly relevant to the content of their post My goodness! How strange it is that my words have struck you so deeply even though they weren't aimed at you. I have no explanation for this. 
Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 09:38
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theflyingorc posted:Wait It sort of boggles my mind at times that the weekend chat crew is still in 2016 discussion mode. Granted the new Congress isn’t sworn in yet but there’s a whole host of other things to talk about like the climate report or the special election in Miss with a Jefferson Davis lover or Trump carrying a tiki torch for MBS or Whittaker’s whole sidedealing and looking like an absurdly sketch acting AG or HHS trying to define gender at birth or abortion bans in the south and yet the old chestnut prevails I mean poo poo don’t y’all get tired? Has anybody’s mind been changed in 4 trump threads, 5 USPOLs and three dems are bad thread? Is there no peak primary oil? Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 09:38
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Mendrian posted:The first thing we need to do is control the runaway price of property. People are poor because they spend so much loving money putting a roof over their head. And it would only cost the wealthy hypothetical money, as opposed to actual money. You're so close to understanding it. The issue isn't property prices. The issue is the exploitation of the working class by the rich to ensure that the overwhelming majority of the productivity increases of the last century translated into bigger bank accounts for them as opposed to a better standard of living for the workers.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:42
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Dad Jokes posted:jesus christ An unofficial social credit score already exists in western countries, it's called "connections". And it has already achieved the creation of a permanent underclass.
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Nov 25, 2018 09:53
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Party Plane Jones posted:It sort of boggles my mind at times that the weekend chat crew is still in 2016 discussion mode. Granted the new Congress isn’t sworn in yet but there’s a whole host of other things to talk about like the climate report or the special election in Miss with a Jefferson Davis lover or Trump carrying a tiki torch for MBS or Whittaker’s whole sidedealing and looking like an absurdly sketch acting AG or HHS trying to define gender at birth or abortion bans in the south and yet the old chestnut prevails I'm certain that when KMFDM spoke of the "eternal revolution" of counterculture, they didn't imagine it looking like this thread. But you know, hellworld timeline and all that. I just went back and listened to this song for the first time in s decade it is oddly prescient of the Trump era. Like.....oddly prescient. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwhOTNQcQq4 Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 09:53
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Prester Jane posted:My goodness! How strange it is that my words have struck you so deeply even though they weren't aimed at you. I have no explanation for this. I don't like you on a personal level, this isn't hard to understand. You're a fundamentally intellectually dishonest person at every level who suffers from extreme narcissistic delusions of grandeur. You're literally going "i upset you, you must have privilege" to an accusation that you use the same cudgel in every argument because there isn't a clean rebuttal - which is what happens when there's no actual argument to grapple with You'll probably do the exact same thing to this post
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Nov 25, 2018 09:58
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Liquid Communism posted:You're so close to understanding it. Yeah, and inflation means people don't understand how much they're getting screwed over. Most of us should be making three times or salaries just based on what we contribute, just to be equal to the purchasing power we had in the 60s
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Nov 25, 2018 10:00
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Party Plane Jones posted:It sort of boggles my mind at times that the weekend chat crew is still in 2016 discussion mode. Granted the new Congress isn’t sworn in yet but there’s a whole host of other things to talk about like the climate report or the special election in Miss with a Jefferson Davis lover or Trump carrying a tiki torch for MBS or Whittaker’s whole sidedealing and looking like an absurdly sketch acting AG or HHS trying to define gender at birth or abortion bans in the south and yet the old chestnut prevails is there much to discuss about these topics tho? everyone in the thread agrees that all of this is awful, there's not any real debate to be had unless you start assigning people to opposing positions like in high school. the state of the democratic party and the only good type of bbq in the us are topics that the thread strongly disagrees with each other on, so i think that is why the thread naturally gravitates to these topics.
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Nov 25, 2018 10:04
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Ripoff posted:This social credit poo poo is 100% coming to the US as soon as the 1% and corporate boards of directors realize you can monetize it via tying your social credit to the rent you pay and/or interest rates you receive and pay. Not to mention the money that “fixers” will make to improve Skylyr’s score when he was caught stealing or vandalizing something at school, so he can still get into an Ivy League (while the other kid that was present gets hosed out of attending college for the rest of their life). Decades upon decades screaming about Marks of the Devil from barcodes to credit cards, along with a general fear and hatred for government surveillance, I cannot help but imagine any major platform for introducing this will result in near-riots and Vietnam protest levels of major disobedience. Of course, I'm talking in terms of demographics and large swathes of people realizing what this means, along with younger generations now having major power as years go by. But I could be completely wrong and people go full ham into it BECAUSE they know exactly what it'll bring.
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Nov 25, 2018 10:09
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LividLiquid posted:I'm so loving tired of this argument, and I'm even more loving tired of the left's circular firing squad. Let's have a little thought experiment here. Let's say that people actually behaved the way you wanted, and voted Blue in the general literally no matter what. If this is the case, why wouldn't the party establishment just abolish the primaries and go back to handpicking the candidates they want? If there's no electoral cost there's no reason not to do it, and every reason to do it since it would guarantee them retaining power in perpetuity, and as you note, the establishment won't change unless it's forced to, yet here you're demanding something that would remove even the possibility of forcing that change. tl;dr your own argument literally contradicts itself, which is kinda bad. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 10:09
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Ppj great news, I've managed to connect a device to primary chat and connect it to a generator. I've created infinite free energy! We're saved!
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Nov 25, 2018 10:10
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Prester Jane posted:I'm certain that when KMFDM spoke of the "eternal revolution" of counterculture, Friendship ended with Marx and Trotsky, now KMFDM is my best friend. Read a book.
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Nov 25, 2018 10:21
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Party Plane Jones posted:It sort of boggles my mind at times that the weekend chat crew is still in 2016 discussion mode. Granted the new Congress isn’t sworn in yet but there’s a whole host of other things to talk about like the climate report or the special election in Miss with a Jefferson Davis lover or Trump carrying a tiki torch for MBS or Whittaker’s whole sidedealing and looking like an absurdly sketch acting AG or HHS trying to define gender at birth or abortion bans in the south and yet the old chestnut prevails and theflyingorc is just posting about posts, as per his gimmick
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Nov 25, 2018 10:29
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Why do some people immediately start whining about "the left eating itself" and "circular firing squads" whenever the thread isn't in perfect agreement? It almost feels disingenuous sometimes, like an attempt to shut down people they don't want to hear. That, or they're terrified that any disagreement will guarantee Republican rule if not squashed immediately, which would be an unhealthy mindset to have, to say the least.MSDOS KAPITAL posted:PJ doesn't appear to be rehashing the 2016 primaries, just the idea of pulling the party left via primaries but still doggedly supporting them in the general. That's a topic worth discussion because while it has some merit, the party has also sabotaged it's usefulness to some degree, as they've freely admitted on the record, literally in court. Yeah, while thus far the only Democrat I actually refused to vote for (other than Dems running against other, better Dems, because California) was the child molester who also got unendorsed by the local party (he still won by the way; thankfully auditor-controllers don't work with kids often as far as I'm aware), the "always vote blue" people sometimes give worrisome examples of the kind of Dem you should still support, like even explicitly saying to still vote for them if they don't actually support, say, the minority rights that we're supposed to be voting for them to protect if nothing else. Which, besides feeling pretty lovely if you're one of people explicitly not being protected by that person, seems more likely to encourage that behavior, since it gave them electoral victory, than somehow convince them to get better like the "make the Dems see that supporting your *This is not a call to vote for Republicans instead or anything, just discussing this subject. I have personally never voted for a Republican, not even the guy running against the aforementioned child molester. (Technically that was a non-partisan race, neither person running under either party, but that's tangential.) Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 10:31
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Party Plane Jones posted:It sort of boggles my mind at times that the weekend chat crew is still in 2016 discussion mode. Granted the new Congress isn’t sworn in yet but there’s a whole host of other things to talk about like the climate report or the special election in Miss with a Jefferson Davis lover or Trump carrying a tiki torch for MBS or Whittaker’s whole sidedealing and looking like an absurdly sketch acting AG or HHS trying to define gender at birth or abortion bans in the south and yet the old chestnut prevails People will post whatever they want, this site has never functioned by begging people to stop posting lovely, you have to use your moderation powers to stop the lovely posting
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Nov 25, 2018 10:32
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Roland Jones posted:Why do some people immediately start whining about "the left eating itself" and "circular firing squads" whenever the thread isn't in perfect agreement? It almost feels disingenuous sometimes, like an attempt to shut down people they don't want to hear. That, or they're terrified that any disagreement will guarantee Republican rule if not squashed immediately, which would be a worrisome and unhealthy mindset to have, to say the least.
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Nov 25, 2018 10:38
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Cerebral Bore posted:Let's have a little thought experiment here. Let's say that people actually behaved the way you wanted, and voted Blue in the general literally no matter what. If this is the case, why wouldn't the party establishment just abolish the primaries and go back to handpicking the candidates they want? If there's no electoral cost there's no reason not to do it, and every reason to do it since it would guarantee them retaining power in perpetuity, and as you note, the establishment won't change unless it's forced to, yet here you're demanding something that would remove even the possibility of forcing that change. If the Democratic Overlords won't ragequit to keep their party from moving an iota left, why do I keep insisting they will?
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Nov 25, 2018 11:04
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Killer robot posted:If the Democratic Overlords won't ragequit to keep their party from moving an iota left, why do I keep insisting they will? The gently caress is this even supposed to mean?
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Nov 25, 2018 11:07
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KingNastidon posted:What will be your argument to convince people on Medicare or soon to be on Medicare that potentially life saving procedures or therapies won't be developed or commercially available (similar to NICE/NHS) to contain aggregate spend? They are currently available in the US under the status quo. On top of generally trolling about NICE / NHS I think you are being intentionally misleading about what's going on in the US and UK. CAR-T treatments are commercially available in the UK under the status quo and would likely be covered if a patient has supplementary (private) insurance. Considering that insurers in the US will require a co-pay, if they will cover at all, and CARs are not covered at all under medicare I think you're being disingenuous. Also here are CAR-T treatments being funded by the NHS through the Cancer Drugs Fund: https://www.england.nhs.uk/2018/09/nhs-england-announces-groundbreaking-new-personalised-therapy-for-children-with-cancer/ I think ultimately the manufacturers will come to a funding agreement that allows treatment with CAR-Ts without using the cancer drugs fund. The NHS is underfunded and is not a panacea but if the US had the same system it would be easily possible to fund all these treatments, and probably reduce overall health expenditure by about a third. Most countries also allow private cover on top of the state health system so, if you, want, you can ensure access to very new and sometimes off-label therapies, and have a private room with carpet etc. All health funding systems make decisions about what they will spend money on, it is a distraction to handwave at national systems not (yet) having managed to work out how to cover $400k therapies when there are 40 million uninsured people in the US and people are being denied heart transplants because of the cost of loving cyclosporin.
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Nov 25, 2018 11:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:Let's have a little thought experiment here. Let's say that people actually behaved the way you wanted, and voted Blue in the general literally no matter what. If this is the case, why wouldn't the party establishment just abolish the primaries and go back to handpicking the candidates they want? If there's no electoral cost there's no reason not to do it, and every reason to do it since it would guarantee them retaining power in perpetuity, and as you note, the establishment won't change unless it's forced to, yet here you're demanding something that would remove even the possibility of forcing that change. If only people could do something like complain if Dems try to get rid of primaries. But that would require us to be able to actually react to things. Curse our ridiculously specific and yet all encompassing inability to deal with things like rational people!
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Nov 25, 2018 12:06
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knox_harrington posted:On top of generally trolling about NICE / NHS I think you are being intentionally misleading about what's going on in the US and UK. CAR-T treatments are commercially available in the UK under the status quo and would likely be covered if a patient has supplementary (private) insurance. Considering that insurers in the US will require a co-pay, if they will cover at all, and CARs are not covered at all under medicare I think you're being disingenuous. The NHS has been turning a small but comfortable profit for most of its lifespan, and only stopped doing so because of the 2012 Health and Social Care Act, an act of deliberate political sabotage by a right-wing politician, Andrew Lansley, with extensive connections in the US health insurance industry. Seriously, look at this chart:  Of course a US NHS stands a better chance - you fuckers won't be trying to demolish it from overseas.
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Nov 25, 2018 12:19
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Fulchrum posted:If only people could do something like complain if Dems try to get rid of primaries. But that would require us to be able to actually react to things. Curse our ridiculously specific and yet all encompassing inability to deal with things like rational people! If merely complaining about things would be enough to effect actual change your ilk might not be a complete political failures, but alas.
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Nov 25, 2018 12:36
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check out this article https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1066462737348419585 notice how CNN does everything they can to tiptoe around the fact that pharma companies have jacked up the price of insulin year over year? notice how they attempt to blame the lack of access on growing numbers of diabetics and even when they do bring up how expensive insulin is, they never actually bother to discuss how it got that way? as if it's just obvious that insulin must be expensive? 
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Nov 25, 2018 13:01
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IMO people who are staying home in protest when they can make it to the polls, who are leaving ballots blank in protest, or who are writing in silly names should all write-in a uniform ballot for "Ultimatum". The Democratic Party would still try to blame voter apathy but it'd look more ridiculous. I'm not saying people should have done this in 2016, but I'm saying that people should be ready to do this in case they do something like cancel primaries.
galenanorth fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 13:22
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Nurge posted:This is a little late, but it absolutely will. That's hundreds of millions of savings on fuel annually for the big companies. 10% is a crazy efficiency increase. IIRC, there are no emissions regulations in international waters. Big cargo ships burn horrendously dirty (cheap) fuel in the mid ocean, then switch to cleaner fuel when they get to coastal waters. E: the 15 biggest cargo ships put our the same greenhouse gas emissions as all the cars in the world. So it’s really a big loving deal Bubbacub fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 13:54
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galenanorth posted:IMO people who are staying home in protest when they can make it to the polls, who are leaving ballots blank in protest, or who are writing in silly names should all write-in a uniform ballot for "Ultimatum". The Democratic Party would still try to blame voter apathy but it'd look more ridiculous. I'm not saying people should have done this in 2016, but I'm saying that people should be ready to do this in case they do something like cancel primaries. Lol, ok, where are you getting this wild idea that they're gonna cancel primaries?
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Nov 25, 2018 14:31
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Party Plane Jones posted:https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1056811593177227264 Ignorant question here, but what is inherently "capitalistic" about this phenomenon? Seems to me any economic system would make use of this kind of tech once it becomes available. The sci-fi/futurist fiction about idyllic Star-Trek-like societies where people's behavior is catalogued in central databases and confirms/denies their access to amenities and freedom is, like, legion.
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Nov 25, 2018 14:32
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Data Graham posted:Ignorant question here, but what is inherently "capitalistic" about this phenomenon? Seems to me any economic system would make use of this kind of tech once it becomes available. Because "MeowMeowBeans, but real" is a terrible idea that every VC techbro is determined to keep trying to invent. Personally, I think it's because people like Grover Norquist think they'll be in charge and get to change the levers so Scarlett Johanssen has to gently caress exclusively bowtie-wearing ultranerds. SesameCredit (in the west, at least) is definitely has a bit of 'once there's a system, I'll be able to decide what's cool' air to it Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 14:36
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