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KillHour posted:Ding ding ding ding. In the interest of weekend crew pedantry, it's 16% or about 1 in 6 pregnancies that end in abortion (188 abortions out of a total of 1188 live births + abortions).
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Nov 25, 2018 18:28
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KillHour posted:The problem with this logic is I wasn't the dirty liberal they were lying about their beliefs to. I was the good Christian kid they were trying to pass their beliefs on to. If they didn't really care about a national ID, they wouldn't have spent such an insane amount of time telling their children how evil it was. Beliefs don't pass down through osmosis and as someone who grew up around these people, trust me when I say I know what they actually believe. They actually believe that the devil is real and is trying to trick them into betraying God. They think that Jesus will come back, but only if they figure out the secret decoder ring correctly. They believe people choose to be good or evil and if they are good, they will be rich and if they are evil, they will be poor (unless God is testing their faith, of course). Oh, and they believe evil people who are rich got that way by selling their soul to the devil. The racism isn't the core belief here - the just world fallacy is. Being racist is how they resolve the cognitive dissonance of a group of people being poor as a whole, while still believing that God takes care of good people: those people must just not be as good. Yeah, this. This is a good post. It wasn't until I started attending church for a year with people with wildly different beliefs than I did is that you can not understand these people unless you're exposed to them for long periods of time. I'm sure that someone could glean information out of a book if they tried hard enough, but you need real exposure to understand that fundies believe that the world basically runs on magic. That there is a constant battle between good and evil and that they are a part of it. That they are chosen and that everyone else is misguided at best or a servant of Satan at the worst. To understand just how strange these people are, you need direct exposure to them for prolonged periods of time. Only then will you begin to grasp how fundamentally bizarre their logic is. Right wing conservative Christians are not really Christians, but people who use an ideology to help reinforce and maintain their individual and group identity in order to help maintain their power. They're basically a large group of cults who often face the same direction when they believe there is some sort of enemy to be fought, and the idea of the enemy is at the very root of their beliefs. Strip away almost everything and at the very bottom of their ideology is that there is an enemy and they must always fight it. The prosperity gospel really pours gas on hating the poor save for those who are part of the church, who are only being tested, because exceptions must be made for people who fling money at you. Even though it is explicitly stated that the rich would have an amazingly difficult time of entering heaven. Doesn't matter. Their own propaganda highlights passages taken wildly out of context while making excuses for or just flat out ignoring the explicit disdain for wealth in the bible. Fundies are irrational people who believe irrational things even within the context of their own theology because they're trying to justify a world view that maintains their supremacy, both supposed and real. Their logic is as twisted as Christmas tree lights after a year of collecting dust. Disentangling it takes time, effort and is intensely frustrating.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:29
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Bubbacub posted:E: the 15 biggest cargo ships put our the same greenhouse gas emissions as all the cars in the world. So it’s really a big loving deal This claim made the rounds on facebook a while ago. It's kind of misleading because it doesn't refer to CO2 but rather other substances that cars don't release (any more) or that only very old cars do.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:30
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Koalas Massacre posted:Isn't the median salary for millennials like 30k? I was happy when I was making 15k ffs. California, so my rent is approximately 4x most other areas of the country, but I had a relatively tight budget on 40k. I can't imagine trying to make ends meet on less. Underemployment in this country is a plague, and we need to up our minimum wage and tie it to inflation ASAP.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:32
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Pellisworth posted:In the interest of weekend crew pedantry, it's 16% or about 1 in 6 pregnancies that end in abortion (188 abortions out of a total of 1188 live births + abortions). It's actually lower - those numbers don't mention miscarriages. I think the number is actually closer to 10% in NYS (a state where obtaining abortion is very easy), and lower in most other states. But being intellectually honest doesn't make for as compelling of an argument. 
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Nov 25, 2018 18:33
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KillHour posted:Ding ding ding ding. No, they don't. They pretend they do, they invoke that imagery, but no they don't. If these people genuinely loving believed abortion was the genocide they say it is they'd be loving taking up arms way more than they are now. You can't simultaneously believe 'I am witnessing a second holocaust, every day countless are being murdered and I must stop it' and 'so I'm gonna go to the country club and have a dinner about it until we can carefully manipulate a winning court case to reach the supreme court in a year or two' and consider yourself a moral person. Don't give these loving psychopaths the dignity of pretending their convictions are real. Abortion is the cudgel they use to get political power, nothing else. If they woke up the next day and we had Ceaușescu style forced births and all they'd just shrug and pick the next ~religious flashpoint issue~ out of the hat to keep their grift open. These people are evil sociopaths, not misguided zealots with a cause.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:41
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Ice Phisherman posted:(really long post) This is absolutely how it looks like from our perspective, but you have to totally shed perspective to really understand it. In fact, their logic is the only way to reconcile these core beliefs: - God is real and he loves us - The devil is real and he wants us to suffer - God is more powerful than the devil and could stop him at any time - But he won't because God will only save people who believe in the right things - Only people who share these core beliefs are good, and only those people can be saved - It is our duty to help God save as many people as possible If you take those as a universal truth, the way 1+1 = 2 or the speed of light is a universal truth, everything else follows. All other beliefs are secondary to these ones and must be changed to fit these truths. sexpig by night posted:No, they don't. They pretend they do, they invoke that imagery, but no they don't. Sure, walk in here and tell a person who lived it and was one of these misguided zealots with a cause that they didn't really believe that and must actually be an evil sociopath. That doesn't just make you look like a total rear end in a top hat. You can't fit other people's beliefs in your brain and just draw conclusions based on that. It doesn't work that way. KillHour fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 18:41
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So I was wondering if the national ID cards being described as "mark of the beast" was just a dig at fundies/evangelicals tending always toward conservative silliness, or if there was an actual religious resistance to this idea with "biblical backing." *googles* Holy gently caress, is that a sprawling mass of insanity. Jesus Orwell Christ.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:42
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American evangelical Christianity is a political movement with religious trappings. There are plenty of true believers in the rank and file but none of their leaders have enough of a soul to have actual religious principles that would ever supersede their political ambitions
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Nov 25, 2018 18:43
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KillHour posted:Of course these people don't care if Trump hosed a porn star. Yep their not giving a gently caress about about Trump being gross is rational. Here's the question, if they don't get a ruling they like, will they start giving a gently caress about Trump being agaisnt everything else they believe? The racist ones no. Not all of them are racist though, just a lot of them. But, I wouldn't count on any of them.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:44
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KillHour posted:Sure, walk in here and tell a person who lived it and was one of these misguided zealots with a cause that they didn't really believe that and must actually be an evil sociopath. That doesn't just make you look like a total rear end in a top hat. Dude it's ok to just say you had lovely beliefs before, you don't need to pretend you actually thought there was a genocide happening in America and the solution to it was to, at most, go yell in front of one of the kill-houses about how uncool it was.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:45
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Ice Phisherman posted:
I think one of the hardest things to internalize is that people actually for real have different worldviews and aren't just kidding or faking or lying. People love to explain other group's behavior either in terms of their own motivations or by just assuming the person must be mindless or act at random or is "crazy". Instead of getting different groups work sometimes just have actual different frameworks of belief about the world.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:45
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I, too, used to be a conservative Christian and nah, they don't really believe that poo poo about abortion beyond a very surface level.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:47
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sexpig by night posted:American evangelical Christianity is a political movement with religious trappings. There are plenty of true believers in the rank and file but none of their leaders have enough of a soul to have actual religious principles that would ever supersede their political ambitions You're wrong about all of this and have 0 actual evidence based on their words and actions. You are no better than the fundamentalists because you see the world as the same struggle between Good™ and Evil™, just with the roles reversed. Maybe take a little time to think about that. BrandorKP posted:Yep their not giving a gently caress about about Trump being gross is rational. Here's the question, if they don't get a ruling they like, will they start giving a gently caress about Trump being agaisnt everything else they believe? They'll throw the SCOTUS judge under the bus. If Trump came out and said "I want to put people on the court who will protect abortion," they would absolutely disown him, but that will never happen. sexpig by night posted:Dude it's ok to just say you had lovely beliefs before, you don't need to pretend you actually thought there was a genocide happening in America and the solution to it was to, at most, go yell in front of one of the kill-houses about how uncool it was. Holy poo poo. You're actually gaslighting what I used to believe. You're literally doing that. Mods?
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Nov 25, 2018 18:47
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Look I am sorry for being an rear end in a top hat but I genuinely can't tolerate the 'well they have real beliefs' mantra because it's literally why we still have unacceptable poo poo happening to countless minority groups and it's shielded by 'but they have these genuinely held beliefs even if you disagree with them' as a loving legal standard.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:48
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Evangelical fundamentalism needs to be completely destroyed in the public sphere. What is behind their beliefs doesn't matter. It's a cancer.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:49
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sexpig by night posted:No, they don't. They pretend they do, they invoke that imagery, but no they don't. I don’t disagree with this but I think framing it this way doesn’t quite work. We routinely talk about how the Trump administration is fascist and committing daily atrocities and yet most of us also do nothing about it. Does that mean the Trump administration isn’t committing daily atrocities? Of course not lol they’re loving fascists. The thing is that whether or not they genuinely believe what they’re saying is almost immaterial. I found that Citations Needed episode about how hypocrisy owns don’t really matter to be compelling and relevant here. You can’t really own the religious right with how hypocritical they are (and they certainly are) because they don’t live in your reality.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:50
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sexpig by night posted:Look I am sorry for being an rear end in a top hat but I genuinely can't tolerate the 'well they have real beliefs' mantra because it's literally why we still have unacceptable poo poo happening to countless minority groups and it's shielded by 'but they have these genuinely held beliefs even if you disagree with them' as a loving legal standard. You don't have to tolerate it. Just because someone actually believes something doesn't mean they're worth listening to. Hell, the Timecube guy actually believed all that stuff and we definitely shouldn't make laws based on it. But don't go around telling yourself that people don't believe what they claim to because I promise you, you are wrong about that. If you want to change things, you need to understand the actual motivations behind them, not the easy cognitive dissonance soothing "they must just be evil." Edit: And for the record, my solution to "there are too many abortions" was "we need comprehensive sex-ed and free birth control." Of course, that wasn't the standard in that community, but I was able to get out because I had other influences in my life that were pulling me in different directions. If people grow up only hearing that "prayer and protest will stop abortion," they will believe it. And with the new SCOTUS Justices, they might have been right. KillHour fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 18:51
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Lightning Knight posted:I don’t disagree with this but I think framing it this way doesn’t quite work. We routinely talk about how the Trump administration is fascist and committing daily atrocities and yet most of us also do nothing about it. Does that mean the Trump administration isn’t committing daily atrocities? Of course not lol they’re loving fascists. You're not wrong there but I would argue that there is a genuine problem in the ~#resist~ crowd that they'll claim to say they think Trump is a fascist but also pine for the 'honorable Bush republicans' or pearl clutch about punching nazis and poo poo and that does speak to them not actually thinking Trump is a fascist but rather just thinking he's very rude. I'm not saying literally every person who believes abortion is murder has to throw a bomb in a clinic to be 'real' but I'm pretty sure if I asked Young KillHour if poo poo like the dude shooting Tiller was ok they'd give me some 'oh no we'd never support that' bullshit
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Nov 25, 2018 18:54
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sexpig by night posted:Look I am sorry for being an rear end in a top hat but I genuinely can't tolerate the 'well they have real beliefs' mantra because it's literally why we still have unacceptable poo poo happening to countless minority groups and it's shielded by 'but they have these genuinely held beliefs even if you disagree with them' as a loving legal standard. Say what you want about the tenets of nazis dude but at least its an ethos
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Nov 25, 2018 18:54
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Saagonsa posted:I, too, used to be a conservative Christian and nah, they don't really believe that poo poo about abortion beyond a very surface level. Have you ever met conservative Catholics (how I was raised)? Trust me, it's a whole new ballgame. e- Evangelicals may use it a window dressing, but there really are true believers very, very angry about it. KickerOfMice fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 18:55
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sexpig by night posted:Look I am sorry for being an rear end in a top hat but I genuinely can't tolerate the 'well they have real beliefs' mantra because it's literally why we still have unacceptable poo poo happening to countless minority groups and it's shielded by 'but they have these genuinely held beliefs even if you disagree with them' as a loving legal standard. It doesn’t mean they are right, it means everyone on earth isn’t just running a ruse and secretly has your same opinions and beliefs and are just trying to trick you when they claim they don’t.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:56
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sexpig by night posted:You're not wrong there but I would argue that there is a genuine problem in the ~#resist~ crowd that they'll claim to say they think Trump is a fascist but also pine for the 'honorable Bush republicans' or pearl clutch about punching nazis and poo poo and that does speak to them not actually thinking Trump is a fascist but rather just thinking he's very rude. Read the edit above your post. I know a guy who said he would absolutely shoot up an abortion clinic, but they would just get another abortion doctor and he can do more good not in jail. People aren't shooting up abortion clinics more for the same reason you're not planing to assassinate Lindsey Graham. Edit just in case: I had to use a like for like comparison for the point to make sense. Obviously I am not wishing ill-will on Lindsey Graham other than the deep desire that he be as far away from politics as possible.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:56
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sexpig by night posted:You're not wrong there but I would argue that there is a genuine problem in the ~#resist~ crowd that they'll claim to say they think Trump is a fascist but also pine for the 'honorable Bush republicans' or pearl clutch about punching nazis and poo poo and that does speak to them not actually thinking Trump is a fascist but rather just thinking he's very rude. Alright we’re on the same page then. Also KillHour having absolute contempt for the religious right doesn’t make someone just as bad as them because one group wants to take rights away from marginalized people and the other... doesn’t.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:57
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The amazing thing about conservative catholics is i'm pretty sure the catholic in the world that's ACTUALLY opposed to both abortion AND the death penalty is the pope.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:57
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Lightning Knight posted:Alright we’re on the same page then. I disagree. Having absolute contempt for anybody is damaging to understanding them properly. Not understanding them properly undermines your attempts to fight them. You can't frame people as good or evil because that's not how people work. You can have contempt for the specific beliefs, but beliefs aren't people and people are who vote. reignonyourparade posted:The amazing thing about conservative catholics is i'm pretty sure the catholic in the world that's ACTUALLY opposed to both abortion AND the death penalty is the pope. Every Catholic I know is (except for my Grandma who is both against the death penalty and pro-choice). Can we have a derail about how awesome by Grandma is?
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Nov 25, 2018 18:59
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sexpig by night posted:Look I am sorry for being an rear end in a top hat but I genuinely can't tolerate the 'well they have real beliefs' mantra because it's literally why we still have unacceptable poo poo happening to countless minority groups and it's shielded by 'but they have these genuinely held beliefs even if you disagree with them' as a loving legal standard. Beliefs can change a to a huge extent without superficially changing. And abortion in the evangelicals is a good example. At one point they didn't give a poo poo until a person was actually born. That's when one was a person, birth. Personhood was pushed back to conception by a convergence of things (malign actors pushing a narrative, progress in science, etc). One can dramatically change the repercussions of a belief, by changing the meaning of the words in the belief.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:59
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reignonyourparade posted:The amazing thing about conservative catholics is i'm pretty sure the catholic in the world that's ACTUALLY opposed to both abortion AND the death penalty is the pope. In many places in the US conservative Catholics are just evangelical Protestants who like to cosplay Catholic mass. I came from an area like that, it’s uncanny to see megachurches that are Catholic. My old church raised millions of dollars to build a beautiful new church and I remember thinking how cool that is. Now I’m upset they wasted so much instead of renovating the old church and giving the rest to the poor.
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Nov 25, 2018 18:59
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It doesn’t mean they are right, it means everyone on earth isn’t just running a ruse and secretly has your same opinions and beliefs and are just trying to trick you when they claim they don’t. This is the best OOCC post I've ever seen. Can this go in the OP? Just so I can remind myself it actually happened?
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Nov 25, 2018 19:02
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KillHour posted:I disagree. Having absolute contempt for anybody is damaging to understanding them properly. Not understanding them properly undermines your attempts to fight them. You can't frame people as good or evil because that's not how people work. You can have contempt for the specific beliefs, but beliefs aren't people and people are who vote. The problem with this is that not all empathy is created equal and you put marginalized people into an impossible position. For example, iirc sexpig is LGBT. Asking him as a marginalized person to have more empathy for his oppressors than they do for him, when they have institutional power, is effectively suppression wrapped up in respectability politics. I wish we could live in a world where everyone was a perfect angel who always forgave, but oppressed people should be angry at their oppressors and resist, to the point of being rude and disruptive and defending themselves. Justice is not the same thing as quiet, etc. Edit: an important incorrect word
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Nov 25, 2018 19:02
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sexpig by night posted:No, they don't. They pretend they do, they invoke that imagery, but no they don't. You're forgetting the one, huge, important thing about these true-believer sects - that this world isn't the only world to them, only a land of trials to prepare humanity for the more perfect and real world beyond. So even (or especially) something as huge as genocide is something you want to address in a slow, patient, careful, godly way, because God will take care of His own in the meantime and you want to make damned sure it's not some holy winnowing process you're mucking around with. Properly hardcore fundamentalists are very often small-c conservatives who regard more aggressive religious crusaders with almost as much suspicion as the ungodly folks they seek to crush - it's why, for instance, there's a major anti-Zionist presence in the Jewish Orthodox community.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:03
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If evangelicals actually cared about abortion, they would be all about teaching young women about birth control.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:05
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Lightning Knight posted:The problem with this is that not all empathy is created equal and you put marginalized people into an impossible position. For example, iirc sexpig is LGBT. Asking him as a marginalized person to have more empathy for his oppressors than they do, when they have institutional power, is effectively suppression wrapped up in identity politics. I wish we could live in a world where everyone was a perfect angel who always forgave, but oppressed people should be angry at their oppressors and resist, to the point of being rude and disruptive and defending themselves. In what way is asking people to have empathy suppression? I never said sexpig shouldn't fight for their beliefs, nor did I say they should hold other beliefs as automatically good or correct. All I said is that those beliefs are absolutely sincerely held and that understanding that will improve one's ability to fight those beliefs. You can't fight what you don't understand. And to address your point more directly, I do believe that empathy is a required thing to be a 'good' person, however you want to define that. Including empathy for those who hurt you. It's why we don't believe in the death penalty and no human is exempt from that requirement, IMO. If sexpig says "no, I'm not required to view people as human with real beliefs," then I will think of them as a bad person, regardless of their minority status. I'm sure if they don't see me as a person, it won't matter much to them, though. Edit: I'm not trying to put those words in sexpig's mouth because they didn't say that and I want to make that clear. I'm using that illustratively and I really think sexpig does not believe that. Edit2: You can also be angry and still have empathy. You don't even have to have sympathy to have empathy. But empathy is important and I won't bend on it. KillHour fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 19:07
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Unoriginal Name posted:If evangelicals actually cared about abortion, they would be all about teaching young women about birth control. Is that the appropriately godly way to do it that gets them maximum brownie points for their next life, though? That's the problem with these utilitarian counterarguments - the fundamentalists who actually care about utilitarianism are operating off a completely different system that balances out multiple worlds' worth of happiness.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:08
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KillHour posted:In what way is asking people to have empathy suppression? I never said sexpig shouldn't fight for their beliefs, nor did I say they should hold other beliefs as automatically good or correct. All I said is that those beliefs are absolutely sincerely held and that understanding that will improve one's ability to fight those beliefs. You can't fight what you don't understand. And to address your point more directly, I do believe that empathy is a required thing to be a 'good' person, however you want to define that. Including empathy for those who hurt you. It's why we don't believe in the death penalty and no human is exempt from that requirement, IMO. I mean I agree in the abstract. I oppose the death penalty as well. The thing is that you can have a sincerely held belief that is reprehensible and harmful. There’s a reason why violence is an acceptable response against Nazis - because Nazi ideology is inherently dangerous and violent. The religious right isn’t at that level but their ideology is inherently harmful and dangerous and empathizing with them impedes the necessary reality that they must be defeated and kept out of power as best as possible. Also in that post where it says “identity politics” it should say “respectability politics” lol.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:10
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tehinternet posted:Dude just posted like 15 paragraphs and this is the lazy poo poo you post. C’mon. People keep repeating this and it’s not true. The largest cargo ships emit more sulfur dioxide than the auto sector, but it is a local air pollutant and a separate problem from greenhouse gases. In total, the international marine sector emits about 2-3% of global GHG emissions, which is around half of just the US’s road sector emissions—far from more than all cars combined! http://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Environment/PollutionPrevention/AirPollution/Pages/GHG-Emissions.aspx Does it necessarily make sense to put big nuclear reactors on every civilian cargo ship when there’s a variety of alternative methods of fueling ships cleanly? There’s potential for good biofuels with much cleaner GHG and conventional emissions than the standard heavy fuel oil, as well as methods of storing energy from clean electricity (even nuclear!) in synthetic hydrocarbons. That means the ships wouldn’t even have to be retrofitted. The biggest barrier is the cost of clean power, which is dropping rapidly.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:11
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean I agree in the abstract. I oppose the death penalty as well. The thing is that you can have a sincerely held belief that is reprehensible and harmful. There’s a reason why violence is an acceptable response against Nazis - because Nazi ideology is inherently dangerous and violent. The religious right isn’t at that level but their ideology is inherently harmful and dangerous and empathizing with them impedes the necessary reality that they must be defeated and kept out of power as best as possible. Violence is not an acceptable response against individual Nazis because it harms the goal of convincing others to marginalize that belief in other ways. If you meant a Nazi state, I agree, but we're not there yet.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:13
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Lightning Knight posted:The problem with this is that not all empathy is created equal and you put marginalized people into an impossible position. For example, iirc sexpig is LGBT. Asking him as a marginalized person to have more empathy for his oppressors than they do for him, when they have institutional power, is effectively suppression wrapped up in respectability politics. I wish we could live in a world where everyone was a perfect angel who always forgave, but oppressed people should be angry at their oppressors and resist, to the point of being rude and disruptive and defending themselves. to killhour's point, evangelical christians aren't a homogenous group though - their main commonality, even, is their belief in an individual relationship with god - and treating them that way is stupid. they're a weird group of sects that often have huge differences from one another, and run the gamut from barely-religious religious people to tongues and snake handling to give just a single example quote:Ninety-six percent of African-American voters chose [Doug] Jones, a Democrat, and the vast majority of those people self-identify, according to exit polling, as evangelical or born-again. That, combined with the high turnout rate among African-Americans — close to the rates of the two times Barack Obama ran for president — gave a spotlight to the religious perspective of black evangelicals. when you lump an entire movement with "white southern baptist megachurches," which as far as I can tell is all people here tend to mean, you make big mistakes about who is and who isn't an evangelical and how they tend to vote 
eke out fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 19:13
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KillHour posted:Violence is not an acceptable response against individual Nazis because it harms the goal of convincing others to marginalize that belief in other ways. If you meant a Nazi state, I agree, but we're not there yet. Ah. I see we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion here. I am totally on board with the idea that being a public Nazi should automatically result in being punched and that punching Nazis is 100% morally acceptable. ^ fair. A more appropriate term would be “right-wing Christians” probably.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:14
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And to drive that further home, the Southern Baptist Megachurches are totally different than the Midwestern Evangelical Megachurches that I grew up with.Lightning Knight posted:Ah. I see we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion here. I am totally on board with the idea that being a public Nazi should automatically result in being punched and that punching Nazis is 100% morally acceptable. We will have to disagree with the means then. Doesn't mean I don't smile watching that gif of Richard Spencer getting clocked, but it didn't achieve any actual progress besides making that one person afraid of getting punched again and if he died, the guy who hit him would absolutely be facing manslaughter charges or worse (and should).
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Nov 25, 2018 19:15
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