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Congratulations on your impending nuptials, Fish. And happy Thanksgiving to everyone, americans or otherwise. Sitting by the fire with family and enjoying some pommeau and calva, the fall specialties of my Norman forebears.
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Nov 24, 2018 01:20
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I’m gonna be working this weekend on a motion to suppress under the theory that since medical marijuana is legal in florida that the “smell of marijuana” is no longer probable cause for a search.
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Nov 24, 2018 03:29
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Mr. Nice! posted:I’m gonna be working this weekend on a motion to suppress under the theory that since medical marijuana is legal in florida that the “smell of marijuana” is no longer probable cause for a search. Definitely let us know how this goes. I’m curious.
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Nov 24, 2018 03:34
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Mr. Nice! posted:I’m gonna be working this weekend on a motion to suppress under the theory that since medical marijuana is legal in florida that the “smell of marijuana” is no longer probable cause for a search. I believe joe Kennedy of Massachusetts made an argument on these lines as a reason to oppose the legalization of marijuana (now that it’s legal he’s changed his stance and he thinks legal pot is a great thing) so you may have something
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Nov 24, 2018 05:15
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Mr. Nice! posted:I’m gonna be working this weekend on a motion to suppress under the theory that since medical marijuana is legal in florida that the “smell of marijuana” is no longer probable cause for a search. I would also be interested in the results of this.
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Nov 24, 2018 05:27
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Toona the Cat posted:I would also be interested in the results of this. Me three. Be prepared for an argument about federal enforcement.
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Nov 24, 2018 05:55
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Other states where marijuana became legal medicinally before recreationally eventually agreed with Mr. Nice's position if I remember correctly, but it had to go to the state supreme court to get there so good luck~~~
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Nov 24, 2018 14:21
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Meatbag Esq. posted:Other states where marijuana became legal medicinally before recreationally eventually agreed with Mr. Nice's position if I remember correctly, but it had to go to the state supreme court to get there so good luck~~~ We're ready to appeal if necessary. The boss likes getting her name in appellate work because it means more business. I'm giving the judge an easy out on this one because the traffic stop was clearly not legal with state supreme court cases on point. That's how I start my motion. I also have a 45 page memorandum of law from someone much smarter than me that covers how all of the other states courts have decided on this. It's from 2017, so it needs a bit of updating, but I'm cribbing as much from it as I can. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel. The logic is simple and sound. Either the smell of weed is no longer probable cause or hundreds of thousands of people no longer have search and seizure related constitutional protections. Since MMJ had 71% when it passed two years ago and that number has gone up, it's just bad public policy. Old white people smell like weed now. There are almost 200k floridians in the MMJ registry as of Nov 16 and 150k of them have active and valid IDs. I'm tempted to take some of the more pungent stuff I can get from the dispensary to court with me to use as an exhibit.
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Nov 24, 2018 14:59
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Mr. Nice! posted:I'm tempted to take some of the more pungent stuff I can get from the dispensary to court with me to use as an exhibit. Submit it as a character witness.
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Nov 24, 2018 15:54
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Is that 45 page memorandum of law publicly available
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Nov 24, 2018 17:44
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mastershakeman posted:Is that 45 page memorandum of law publicly available I’ll see. I’ll share whatever i can when it’s all said and done.
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Nov 24, 2018 18:13
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:So, who billed on Thanksgiving? Americans only please. 1.5
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Nov 24, 2018 23:10
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I'm going to say something nice about america: You all live in a country where probable cause mostly matters, and that's good.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:56
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Nice piece of fish posted:I'm going to say something nice about america: You all live in a country where probable cause mostly matters, and that's good. We do?
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Nov 25, 2018 00:21
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Nice piece of fish posted:I'm going to say something nice about america: You all live in a country where probable cause mostly matters, and that's good. 
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Nov 25, 2018 02:25
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Nice piece of fish posted:I'm going to say something nice about america: You all live in a country where probable cause mostly matters, and that's good. Gonna need some context here.
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Nov 25, 2018 02:31
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nm posted:Gonna need some context here. I'm drunk at a party and silosophysin. Probable cause (or lack thereof) is a non-issue here. Mostly.
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Nov 25, 2018 03:20
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Nice piece of fish posted:I'm drunk at a party and silosophysin. Did you drink yourself all the way to America or something? Edit: or to the Dick Wolfiverse? Unamuno fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 03:42
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Unamuno posted:Did you drink yourself all the way to America or something? Didn't see any dicks or wolves. I was posting in reference to Mr. Nice's thing, which implies the issue of probable cause has some actual significance in the US. Which must be nice. I've never gotten evidence thrown out on lack of probable cause - which is still a theoretical requirement - nor on any other fruit of the poison tree or whatever argument. Don't know anyone who has. It's possible, there's case law, but no lower court seems to give a poo poo. I assumed from the interest in that issue that it mattered in some pragmatic sense. Welp, that's my story
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Nov 25, 2018 12:24
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Pook Good Mook posted:First loss in a domestic abuse trial. Feels bad man. Yes yes. I’ve been absent. There’s a new thread title. Someone will have to catch me up on why. However, Pook, this is the best advice I can give: As a prosecutor your job is not to win cases. Your job is to get all the admissible evidence in front of the jury in a way that makes sense, not commit error, and protect the record. If you did all of the above, you did your job. Aquittals happen for any number of reasons that have zero to do with you. Yeah it sucks to know someone is guilty and see them walk. But I’d take that over worrying if I got the wrong guy any day of the week. Beyond reasonable doubt is a bitch. But it should be.
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Nov 25, 2018 15:04
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Nice piece of fish posted:Didn't see any dicks or wolves. I was posting in reference to Mr. Nice's thing, which implies the issue of probable cause has some actual significance in the US. Which must be nice. ActusRhesus posted:Yes yes. I’ve been absent. There’s a new thread title. Someone will have to catch me up on why. However, Pook, this is the best advice I can give: As a prosecutor your job is not to win cases. Your job is to get all the admissible evidence in front of the jury in a way that makes sense, not commit error, and protect the record. If you did all of the above, you did your job. Aquittals happen for any number of reasons that have zero to do with you. Yeah it sucks to know someone is guilty and see them walk. But I’d take that over worrying if I got the wrong guy any day of the week. Beyond reasonable doubt is a bitch. But it should be. If functional probable cause was a prosecutor, it would be AR. I'm still unsure that either exists. joat mon fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 15:49
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joat mon posted:AR is the probable cause of prosecutors. Also a prosecutor, AR is 100% right. Never seen anyone chewed out for losing a case when they did it the right way. Jury trials are coin flips, no way around it. Also although cases get tossed during pretrial motions based on lack of PC for a stop/search, what happens much more frequently is we decline to prosecute a case if the stop/search is iffy so the arrestee never even comes to court.
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Nov 25, 2018 15:55
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joat mon posted:If functional probable cause was a prosecutor, it would be AR. It’s early and I have a dumb. What do you mean?
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Nov 25, 2018 16:02
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uberkeyzer posted:Also a prosecutor, AR is 100% right. Never seen anyone chewed out for losing a case when they did it the right way. Jury trials are coin flips, no way around it. Also although cases get tossed during pretrial motions based on lack of PC for a stop/search, what happens much more frequently is we decline to prosecute a case if the stop/search is iffy so the arrestee never even comes to court. This is what's most likely to happen with my motion. We're sending it to the state attorney first and they'll likely drop it before formal charges have even been filed.
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Nov 25, 2018 16:24
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ActusRhesus posted:It’s early and I have a dumb. What do you mean? As Fish pointed out, in the US the concept of probably cause exists and there is even (generations old) caselaw to support it. However, the reality on the ground is that probable cause doesn't mean crap, either because it's been eroded into nothing by the appellate judiciary or just flat out ignored by a chickenshit trial judiciary. Seeing probable cause actually function as a check on law enforcement overreach is like finding a unicorn. In the US the concept of prosecutorial ethics exists and there is even (generations old) caselaw that extols it. However the reality on the ground is that all those pretty statements about doing justice and not counting coups doesn't mean crap, blahblahblah... Seeing a prosecutor consistently and forcefully talk about prosecutorial ethics and appear to mean it, believe it and try to live it is like finding a unicorn. You're a unicorn. (It's a compliment)
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Nov 25, 2018 16:48
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It would have been nice to deal with DAs like AR and not “run up the win percentage” DAs like I did.
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Nov 25, 2018 17:08
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When I hear all these internet horror stories of prosecutors who don't understand the basic responsibilities / purpose of their jobs, I can't decide if it owes to a culture difference where maybe prosecutors are that bad in the states, or just defence whining about the other side as they usually do.
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Nov 25, 2018 17:19
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Ah. Thank you. Sad that this is seen as the exception because that’s the top down philosophy in my office. We have *one* who departs from that... and wonders why the boss doesn’t let him near the murder cases. He’s pretty much shunned as a colossal douche and we’re all waiting for the day he fucks up badly enough that the union is like “sorry, bro. Bye.”
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Nov 25, 2018 17:25
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joat mon posted:As Fish pointed out, in the US the concept of probably cause exists and there is even (generations old) caselaw to support it. However, the reality on the ground is that probable cause doesn't mean crap, either because it's been eroded into nothing by the appellate judiciary or just flat out ignored by a chickenshit trial judiciary. Seeing probable cause actually function as a check on law enforcement overreach is like finding a unicorn. Probable cause does not matter as much as it should according to caselaw, but it still matters. That's why people file motions about it all the time; Fish is saying that under his legal system it's so much of a non-factor as to why bother.
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Nov 25, 2018 17:29
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terrorist ambulance posted:When I hear all these internet horror stories of prosecutors who don't understand the basic responsibilities / purpose of their jobs, I can't decide if it owes to a culture difference where maybe prosecutors are that bad in the states, or just defence whining about the other side as they usually do. I wonder what the breakdown is between states with elected DAs and states like mine where it’s done by independent commission. Basically the governor appoints a panel of lawyers and judges who serve until they get bored and resign and they make all the final hiring decisions. Head States Attorneys for various districts and head office management are not members of the prosecutor’s union and are subject to periodic review/reappointment. PDs are done same way, different commission. Decisions on defense overbudget item funding are also made by the PDs commission. It’s not a perfect system but it cuts out a lot of politics.
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Nov 25, 2018 17:31
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terrorist ambulance posted:When I hear all these internet horror stories of prosecutors who don't understand the basic responsibilities / purpose of their jobs, I can't decide if it owes to a culture difference where maybe prosecutors are that bad in the states, or just defence whining about the other side as they usually do. Nobody mentions the lightbulbs that are working, just the one that isn't.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:01
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Here in PA, our DAs are elected by county. The chief PD is appointed by either the county executive if it’s a home rule county, or the county commission. Friends of mine in the DA’s office basically have 3 rules. 1) don’t politically embarrass the DA 2) winning percentage matters even if it means sometimes cutting a really good deal to the defendant, which some DAs do and some just want to play hardball 3) charge literally everything you possibly can as leverage all the way down to code violations.
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Nov 25, 2018 19:01
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Here the philosophy is overcharging makes you look like a douche. Defense Response: “Fine. Open plea to the real crimes. You can look like a tool in front of the judge. Then we can go to trial on the parking violation.”
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Nov 25, 2018 19:34
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Toona the Cat posted:Friends of mine in the DA’s office basically have 3 rules. 1) don’t politically embarrass the DA 2) winning percentage matters even if it means sometimes cutting a really good deal to the defendant, which some DAs do and some just want to play hardball 3) charge literally everything you possibly can as leverage all the way down to code violations. Sorry bout your banana republic
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Nov 25, 2018 20:20
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terrorist ambulance posted:Sorry bout your banana republic It's really more of a Cheesesteak republic
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Nov 25, 2018 20:21
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Toona the Cat posted:It would have been nice to deal with DAs like AR and not “run up the win percentage” DAs like I did. It would be nice to deal with DAs like AR and not "if the judge rules against you, holding that there wasn't PC, move to recuse the judge from all criminal cases in the jurisdiction and then find and support somebody to run against him come election time" DAs like we have around here.
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Nov 25, 2018 20:28
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blarzgh posted:It's really more of a Cheesesteak republic Is that a kind of sandwich?
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Nov 25, 2018 20:40
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It's more like a puffy burrito split lengthwise.
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Nov 25, 2018 20:52
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joat mon posted:It would be nice to deal with DAs like AR and not "if the judge rules against you, holding that there wasn't PC, move to recuse the judge from all criminal cases in the jurisdiction and then find and support somebody to run against him come election time" DAs like we have around here. Our criminal court judges are actually pretty fair. They’re also elected but they’re all Democrats and about half and half from the prosecution and defense bar. Unless you’re where I was in juvenile court and things like the rules of evidence or probable cause didn’t really apply.
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Nov 25, 2018 21:28
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ActusRhesus posted:I wonder what the breakdown is between states with elected DAs and states like mine where it’s done by independent commission. Basically the governor appoints a panel of lawyers and judges who serve until they get bored and resign and they make all the final hiring decisions. Head States Attorneys for various districts and head office management are not members of the prosecutor’s union and are subject to periodic review/reappointment. PDs are done same way, different commission. Decisions on defense overbudget item funding are also made by the PDs commission. It’s not a perfect system but it cuts out a lot of politics. We have a single AG overseeing all state prosecutors. AG is appointed by the governor, no election involved in any prosecutor position under the governor. And the AG is usually focused on oil and gas deals, but criminal matters. I really like our system compared to the elected systems. Or county by county systems, that would be utterly bizarre. Also PC is enforced by our judges (most of whom are former PDs, including our entire court of appeals and everyone with a criminal background on the Supreme Court) like a Wimbledon tennis coach. The slightest iota over the line and the case is tossed. Half the time the trial court just randomly makes up the line just because they don't like the case. They'll happily toss indictments seven or eight times too, each time with internally inconsistent reasoning. As a prosecutor you just sorta roll with it.
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Nov 25, 2018 22:06
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