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Nenonen posted:Idiots who can't repress their primal violent instincts are the problem, not the solution. They are poo poo regardless of their political orientation. Please enlighten us with your plan to defeat the nazis without any use of force. If it is more effective than violence and cutting them off from funding I'm sure people would love to hear it. I stand by what I say. Nazis can not be defeated by using rhetoric because they don't argue in good faith. They are only beaten through material means and violent means. That's it. If their ideology wasn't inherently violent I would not say to meet them with violence. Squalid posted:Most labor unequivocally benefits from free trade. You can argue it has been bad for a few specific subsectors in manufacturing, but most workers are in the service industry and this has been true since the 1950s. Secretaries, cashiers, agriculture (except for growers of a few crops like tobacco) all suffer from protectionism. There's a difference between free trade and protectionism, and that's a matter of degrees. Total free trade crushes labor in the US because that labor could be exported elsewhere where the labor is cheaper. Tariffs that are too large ruin economies when countries hit back with their own tariffs. Sure, free trade has been a net gain for America, but those wins are distributed unevenly. Instead of going to workers, they go into the pockets of the ownership class. That is a serious problem when those in the ownership class aren't paying their fair share for the jobs that were lost versus their gains.
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Nov 25, 2018 22:52
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Condiv posted:the labor working in sweatshops does not benefit from free trade What exactly is the average standard of living in China today versus 30 years ago?
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Nov 25, 2018 22:54
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Community defense and direct action works. It works today, it worked in the past. And of course, white centrist trash like neonen were more harsh towards the people actually defending themselves than the people trying to kill them.
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Nov 25, 2018 22:54
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Fulchrum posted:What exactly is the average standard of living in China today versus 30 years ago? Why don't we put you to work in a sweatshop and see how you like it you parasite
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Nov 25, 2018 22:55
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At least we don't have to worry about nuclear war breaking out between the U.S. and Russia. 
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Nov 25, 2018 22:55
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Ague Proof posted:This could lead to war: https://mobile.twitter.com/CheeseForEvery1/status/1066032812262862848
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Nov 25, 2018 22:55
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Fulchrum posted:What exactly is the average standard of living in China today versus 30 years ago? Fulchrum takes up the fallen torch of Jefferson Clay to argue that no, Sweatshops Are Good.
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Nov 25, 2018 22:55
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Condiv posted:the labor working in sweatshops does not benefit from free trade our good friends the free-trade evangelists will inform you that maybe they -wanted- to be crushed to death to keep my button-downs cheap. and as Hillary recently reminded us, they're third worlders, so they don't really count as people
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Nov 25, 2018 22:56
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Condiv posted:the labor working in sweatshops does not benefit from free trade How would you guess Chinese workers employed in sweatshops in the 1990s are doing today? What do wish they could have done instead?
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Nov 25, 2018 22:57
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:our good friends the free-trade evangelists will inform you that maybe they -wanted- to be crushed to death to keep my button-downs cheap. haha goddamn Matty Y was so much worse than I thought he was pre-election, I now understand why people loathe him.
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Nov 25, 2018 22:58
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Ague Proof posted:This could lead to war: The war on Christmas is just reactionary bullshit. I want to get drunk, crown a beggar, bang on the houses of the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink, or threaten them with Christmas violence. As is tradition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D11jAEKgB2o
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Nov 25, 2018 23:00
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if you ever wonder why people consider Matt Yglesias' woke turn to be facile bullshit, consider the following sentence. In response to the deaths of three hundred people.quote:It’s entirely appropriate for Bangladesh to have different—and, indeed, lower—workplace safety standards than the United States. there is no amount of bloodshed the technocratic centrist will not countenance in the name of preserving the Market, blessed, holy, and definitely not a guy I play tennis with on the weekends be its name.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:00
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The War on Christmas has truly begun. I know this because I hear Christmas music everywhere I go and am trying to make sense of the Christmas decorations I only half put away 9 months ago. Also without me noticing my sister snuck a "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" magnet on my fridge on Thanksgiving so now the war is ON! edit: I make this post because processing US troops teargassing migrants across international borders and Ukraine erupting is a little too much for me to process without a chaser. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 23:00
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Ice Phisherman posted:While this is true, being against free trade is not isolationism. There are real costs with trading freely with Canada and Mexico, and it's almost always labor that suffers in these agreements. Our social safety net is threadbare so when agreements like this go up, people fall through the cracks. In other places with a thicker social safety net, it normally ends up as a net positive. We really need to push for more open, fair trade (in addition to better safety nets). Free trade is awesome and economy growing. But it shouldn’t be completely free, or it causes a race to the bottom for labor. It can also cause absurd wastes of resources just to exploit said labor. Like shipping cotton all the way from the U.S. to Bangladesh so workers getting a quarter a day can sew some cheap clothes and then ship it all the way back to the US. The end product is only like 3 or 4% cheaper at an enormous environmental cost. AND instead of American workers making an ok (but probably still kinda poo poo) living, sweat shop labor gets more entrenched.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:01
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Dick Trauma posted:At least we don't have to worry about nuclear war breaking out between the U.S. and Russia. Rest of the world, not so much... I really need to stop working on dystopian fiction. It always seems to foreshadow the real world a little too closely... 
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Nov 25, 2018 23:01
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Squalid posted:How would you guess Chinese workers employed in sweatshops in the 1990s are doing today? What do wish they could have done instead? Hundreds of people dying in factories is good actually
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Nov 25, 2018 23:01
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I used to announce, as I recited my poetry, " Me, I'm a pacifist - I've thrown my /last/ punch." I'm a rapical. I reject the NAP. I have not called myself a pacifist since trump opened a kiddie concentration camp and that naxi woman defends the policy from the pool. gently caress Nazis. They must be afraid to speak. It is our duty to make them so Afraid.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:01
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Phi230 posted:Why don't we put you to work in a sweatshop and see how you like it you parasite Lightning Knight posted:Fulchrum takes up the fallen torch of Jefferson Clay to argue that no, Sweatshops Are Good. "People in those countries receive no benefits from the outsourcing of labor" "Yeah they do, look at how their standard of living rose" "OH, I GUESS YOU WANT TO MARRY SWEATSHOPS, DON'T YOU!" Really showing conviction in your position there.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:01
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First of all standard of living hasn't risen, they're still in poverty you moron. Just a form of poverty ghouls like you prefer.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:02
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Uglycat posted:I used to announce, as I recited my poetry, " Me, I'm a pacifist - I've thrown my /last/ punch." I'm a rapical. I reject the NAP. I was actually curious what you thought on the topic, as the only goon I know of who actually goes out and engages in direct action rather than just posting about how great it is on the internet.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:03
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Ice Phisherman posted:Sure, free trade has been a net gain for America, but those wins are distributed unevenly. Instead of going to workers, they go into the pockets of the ownership class. That is a serious problem when those in the ownership class aren't paying their fair share for the jobs that were lost versus their gains. How evenly do you think the gains from tariff protections are distributed? Do you think steelworkers benefit more from Trump tariffs than foundry owners? There’s a lot more clerks and hair dressers other service workers than heavy industrial laborers. You are taking a little from the many to give a lot to a few.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:04
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Fulchrum posted:"People in those countries receive no benefits from the outsourcing of labor" The problem with this argument, and it took me a long time to understand this, is that it assumes the only two options are that "people in developing countries have no jobs" and "people in developing countries work in sweatshops." Sweatshops having marginal aggregate benefits for the countries they're built in doesn't change how monstrous they are and that should matter, it's like trying to argue for the marginal benefits of chattel slavery and ignoring its human costs.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:04
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Fulchrum posted:"People in those countries receive no benefits from the outsourcing of labor" as a notable figure opined in an autobiography, maybe being the slaves of their betters is just something they're naturally suited for, due to their inferior emotional intelligence.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:04
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Phi230 posted:First of all standard of living hasn't risen, they're still in poverty you moron. Just a form of poverty ghouls like you prefer. The number of people living in extreme poverty has dropped from 270 million in the late 70s to 70 million today. But because they haven't eliminated poverty entirely, that doesn't count and there is no benefit. Sort of like how there would still be sick people under UHC, therefore the entire system needs to be abandoned.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:06
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Fulchrum posted:What exactly is the average standard of living in China today versus 30 years ago? For factory workers accustomed to the iron rice bowl, way down. For capitalists and skilled professionals, way up. Which is precisely how liberals like it
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Nov 25, 2018 23:06
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Phi230 posted:First of all standard of living hasn't risen, they're still in poverty you moron. Just a form of poverty ghouls like you prefer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China quote:Based on household surveys, the poverty rate in China in 1981 was 63% of the population. This rate declined to 10% in 2004, indicating that about 500 million people have climbed out of poverty during this period.[18] Or is everybody lying out of fear or is the definition of poverty wrong or what? You don't need to say the conditions are ideal or good or even decent to say that they're improving.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:06
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Lightning Knight posted:The problem with this argument, and it took me a long time to understand this, is that it assumes the only two options are that "people in developing countries have no jobs" and "people in developing countries work in sweatshops." Sweatshops having marginal aggregate benefits for the countries they're built in doesn't change how monstrous they are and that should matter, it's like trying to argue for the marginal benefits of chattel slavery and ignoring its human costs. NuTPP strengthens labor protections in a bunch of the countries involved! so did olTPP, actually, the US centric provisions weren't terribly labor centric The Wobblies et al argue that it doesn't go far enough and I assume they're correct, but there's some discussion about whether it is a worthwhile improvement nevertheless.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:08
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Phi230 posted:Hundreds of people dying in factories is good actually Well then I guess it’s a good thing Trump is bringing heavy industry back to America!
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Nov 25, 2018 23:08
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Lightning Knight posted:haha goddamn Matty Y was so much worse than I thought he was pre-election, I now understand why people loathe him. Dude has been terrible for like 15 years. He was writing dumb trash before the Iraq invasion.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:08
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Squalid posted:How evenly do you think the gains from tariff protections are distributed? Do you think steelworkers benefit more from Trump tariffs than foundry owners? They actually don't benefit more than the foundry owners. Wages haven't gone up for them. There were talks of a strike that were big in September. Not sure if that was resolved or not. I'm not for Trump's tariffs. They're awful and he has no end goal for getting a better deal save for himself. Being anti-free trade doesn't mean being pro-protectionism. It's not an on-off switch and you're either misunderstanding me or being disingenuous.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:08
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:For factory workers accustomed to the iron rice bowl, way down. Mr.Unique-Name posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2018 23:08
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Squalid posted:Most labor unequivocally benefits from free trade
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Nov 25, 2018 23:09
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:For factory workers accustomed to the iron rice bowl, way down. hold your horses there pardner, are you saying the Party is mismanaging the economy and labor rights
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Nov 25, 2018 23:09
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Fulchrum posted:The number of people living in extreme poverty has dropped from 270 million in the late 70s to 70 million today. But because they haven't eliminated poverty entirely, that doesn't count and there is no benefit. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html
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Nov 25, 2018 23:09
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Fulchrum posted:The number of people living in extreme poverty has dropped from 270 million in the late 70s to 70 million today. But because they haven't eliminated poverty entirely, that doesn't count and there is no benefit. it is neat to see antebellum arguments in defense of slavery being trotted out verbatim in defense of sweatshop labor. the pitiful, beastly creatures who perform all essential labor for us are being improved by their current station. imagine the savagery they would have been subject to if we hadn't slapped them in chains and started whipping them if they didn't pick cotton fast enough. we are civilizing them by permitting them to make us money. here, at least, they get a bowlful of grits a day.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:10
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GreyjoyBastard posted:NuTPP strengthens labor protections in a bunch of the countries involved! so did olTPP, actually, the US centric provisions weren't terribly labor centric I mean the usage of trade deals to coerce other countries into raising and standardizing their environmental and labor protections seems to be the optimal way to go about things to me, although I think the idea that the TPP was bad for other reasons could very well hold water. I don't see any point in rehashing the TPP since it is rip for the foreseeable future for the US. 1glitch0 posted:Dude has been terrible for like 15 years. He was writing dumb trash before the Iraq invasion. I only really learned about him in 2016.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:10
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The liberal poverty reduction argument is essentially a slave owner saying that giving their slaves food and shelter means they're not poor
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Nov 25, 2018 23:11
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China it is however extremely disingenuous to frame terrible conditions as improvement even if it's technically true like thank you Tongar, Scourge Of The Wastes, for giving me some food while i've been chained to your Battle Bus, but I still have some serious misgivings about this situation
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Nov 25, 2018 23:11
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So "factory workers accustomed to the iron rice bowl" make up only 10% of the population and literally all of them are in poverty? I guess I could see that but the argument seemed to be about overall poverty rate, not the poverty rate of the lowest paid/most heavily exploited (although I'd argue that skilled professionals are pretty loving heavily exploited in China) workers. If the argument is about how things are for the lowest rungs of society, I agree things don't appear to have improved for them although I'm not seeing anything saying much either way. Most info I can find is aggregates. Yinlock posted:it is however extremely disingenuous to frame terrible conditions as improvement even if it's technically true I don't think it's disingenuous at all. Again, "things are improving" doesn't mean "things are good now." 10 people dying a day is a considerable improvement over 100 dying a day. That doesn't mean it's time to stop the improvement. Mr.Unique-Name fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 23:12
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Lightning Knight posted:The problem with this argument, and it took me a long time to understand this, is that it assumes the only two options are that "people in developing countries have no jobs" and "people in developing countries work in sweatshops." Sweatshops having marginal aggregate benefits for the countries they're built in doesn't change how monstrous they are and that should matter, it's like trying to argue for the marginal benefits of chattel slavery and ignoring its human costs. So your problem is that it isn't addressing the very real possibility of China once more finding the monkey king who will provide all the wealth they need? CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:For factory workers accustomed to the iron rice bowl, way down. Lemme guess, this is going to end with you saying that the lesser jungle asians are dominating the superior Han groups?
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Nov 25, 2018 23:14
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