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radmonger posted:Which they did _because of the bombs_. Saying the fact that the Soviet Union knew that the Japanese strategic position was hopeless had nothing to do with the developments that made their position hopeless is like saying ‘he didn’t die from being shot, it was blood loss’. "Your Majesty, the Americans have a new superweapon that can obliterate cities in the blink of an eye. They have used it twice, to devastating effect, and more strikes may be on the way." "All is well. Continue with the war effort." "Also, the Russians have declared war." "Welp, time to put up the white flag." THIS IS WHAT TANKIES ACTUALLY BELIEVE.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:09
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Lightning Knight posted:The fact that the Russians are outright blaming the US for their actions against Ukraine and he hasn't said a thing is deeply damning lol. He doesn't even have a justification for the tear gas attacks, you'd think he'd be stroking his dick at the thought. From the reports posted in Eastern Europe thread, they're claiming "factions in the United States are manipulating events to disrupt Trump and Putin at the G20". So, it's more (((globalist)))-baiting dogwhistling from Russian state-media, but that sure doesn't make it sound less like a Reichstag fire justification for Trump to purge the "deep state".
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Nov 26, 2018 00:09
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:That already exists, it's called OBOR and the west is melting down over it. I think that's mostly good, for more of my opinions on this subject you can find them in the trade war thread.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:10
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Young Freud posted:From the reports posted in Eastern Europe thread, they're claiming "factions in the United States are manipulating events to disrupt Trump and Putin at the G20". So, it's more (((globalist)))-baiting dogwhistling from Russian state-media, but that sure doesn't make it sound less like a Reichstag fire justification for Trump to purge the "deep state". Oh good, that's even better, I'm sure that definitely won't lead to some kind of mass shooting or white nationalist terrorist attack. Where and when is the G20 taking place?
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Nov 26, 2018 00:10
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I wouldn’t be shocked if Trump just literally says nothing about Russia/Ukraine. Unless Daddy Vladimir tells him to, anyway.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:11
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Lightning Knight posted:Oh good, that's even better, I'm sure that definitely won't lead to some kind of mass shooting or white nationalist terrorist attack. Where and when is the G20 taking place? The 30th, in Argentina.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:11
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Squalid posted:I want to imagine solving problems on earth in 2018, and with stuff we can do between today and maybe 2020. Not in some fantasy world where Donald Trump doesn't exist and I already live in the United Socialist States of America. If We elect Bernie in 2020 how would you propose he tackle poverty in Bangladesh? Do you expect him to reinvade Vietnam and install another Democratic Socialist government? Oh so because you aren't instantly gratified means that a long term project isn't worth doing? Oh also yes, spread the revolution
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Nov 26, 2018 00:11
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Office Pig posted:The 30th, in Argentina. DO NOT CONGRATULATE.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:15
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Phi230 posted:Oh so because you aren't instantly gratified means that a long term project isn't worth doing? You can work on short and long term projects simultaneously. It's good to aim for the stars but if you land on the moon that's still a nice accomplishment anyway. edit: also have you heard of the socialist thinker Christopher Hitchens? I think you might find you agree a lot with his positions on military interventions, for great causes like democracy and human rights and all that. Squalid fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Nov 26, 2018 |
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Nov 26, 2018 00:16
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Gen. Ripper posted:THIS IS WHAT TANKIES ACTUALLY BELIEVE. "Tankies," he says, as if this isn't a commonly debated topic of discussion among normal historians. The Japanese had been consistently firebombed for months, and the Emperor had lost confidence in the Japanese military to prosecute the war by the end of June. They had also realized by April that Soviet intervention in the war was inevitable in some form. The idea that the nuclear weapons were necessary to obtain an unconditional surrender in this context is laughable, and the ease with which we justify war crimes is alarming to me. Office Pig posted:The 30th, in Argentina. It's cute they think anyone will remember this happened in 5 days.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:17
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radmonger posted:Which they did _because of the bombs_. Saying the fact that the Soviet Union knew that the Japanese strategic position was hopeless had nothing to do with the developments that made their position hopeless is like saying ‘he didn’t die from being shot, it was blood loss’. Gen. Ripper posted:"Your Majesty, the Americans have a new superweapon that can obliterate cities in the blink of an eye. They have used it twice, to devastating effect, and more strikes may be on the way." There's a difference between "were not necessary" and "made no difference". This is disingenuous at best.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:17
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Pro-click thread: https://twitter.com/jaredlholt/status/1066813731294851073
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Nov 26, 2018 00:17
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I wouldn’t be shocked if Trump just literally says nothing about Russia/Ukraine. I wouldn't be shocked if he takes credit for it.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:23
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Roland Jones posted:There's a difference between "were not necessary" and "made no difference". This is disingenuous at best. It merited enough for the Emporer to personally mention the nuclear weapons in his speech to the people. Yeah, their impact has been overhyped, but it certainly played a role. Worth noting the firebombings killed more.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:23
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Lightning Knight posted:I am reminded of the Falkland War, except stupider. iunno, the Falklands War was EXTRAORDINARILY stupid
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Nov 26, 2018 00:24
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Conspiratiorist posted:I wouldn't be shocked if he takes credit for it. Russia has already pitched “the Ukrainian fascists and the American deep state are escalating this to ruin the Trump Putin summit”
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Nov 26, 2018 00:25
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GreyjoyBastard posted:iunno, the Falklands War was EXTRAORDINARILY stupid Well true, it would've been much funnier if there was an alternative version of the annexation of Crimea that started with Ukraine attacking Russia. CommieGIR posted:It merited enough for the Emporer to personally mention the nuclear weapons in his speech to the people. The point, and this is key, is that in an alternative timeline where we did not drop either nuclear weapon but the Soviets still declared war and invaded Manchuria, the Japanese still almost certainly surrender at this point. Perhaps it wouldn't have come as swiftly, but the reality that the Soviets were within striking distance of the mainland was still an existential threat for them with no escape.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:25
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Russia has already pitched “the Ukrainian fascists and the American deep state are escalating this to ruin the Trump Putin summit” worst part is you know trump will probably gurgles those points on twitter.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:27
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Squalid posted:You can work on short and long term projects simultaneously. It's good to aim for the stars but if you land on the moon that's still a nice accomplishment anyway. Yeah there's such similarity between Neocon regime change and empowering socialist movements to take power on their own. Oh wait, there isn't.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:27
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Lightning Knight posted:"Tankies," he says, as if this isn't a commonly debated topic of discussion among normal historians. The Japanese had been consistently firebombed for months, and the Emperor had lost confidence in the Japanese military to prosecute the war by the end of June. They had also realized by April that Soviet intervention in the war was inevitable in some form. The idea that the nuclear weapons were necessary to obtain an unconditional surrender in this context is laughable, and the ease with which we justify war crimes is alarming to me. The big question is whether or not the US public would be down with a land invasion of Japan. It's entirely possible that war weariness had set in and now that Europe is safe why bother with Japan, especially with the Soviets rampaging through China? Without the bomb you hold out for a while and you could get a brokered peace where you keep your government and Korea. I'm personally of the opinion that the land invasion of Japan was never going to happen, full stop. It would be too costly. They wanted to strangle them, but the soviets forced that option out. If the bombs didn't exist they would have gotten a brokered peace and probably get to keep Korea.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:28
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Grapplejack posted:The big question is whether or not the US public would be down with a land invasion of Japan. It's entirely possible that war weariness had set in and now that Europe is safe why bother with Japan, especially with the Soviets rampaging through China? Without the bomb you hold out for a while and you could get a brokered peace where you keep your government and Korea. That reads as 'the nukes were necessary to prevent Japan surrendering to Russia first'. Which is a very different moral question.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:31
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Grapplejack posted:The big question is whether or not the US public would be down with a land invasion of Japan. It's entirely possible that war weariness had set in and now that Europe is safe why bother with Japan, especially with the Soviets rampaging through China? Without the bomb you hold out for a while and you could get a brokered peace where you keep your government and Korea. See now I don't entirely agree with you but I think this is an entirely sensible counterargument (to the idea that Japanese unconditional surrender was inevitable without nukes, at least).
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Nov 26, 2018 00:31
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this should be like having a holocaust denier on your show. https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/1066711193170124800
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Nov 26, 2018 00:33
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I don't think they ever would have gotten to keep Korea, but yeah if they were just stuck on Japan proper and no invasion happened they'd absolutely at least refuse any surrender where they didn't keep their government.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:34
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There was a coup attempt by the Japanese high command even after the Emperor recorded his speech demanding the Japanese armed forces stand down. It failed but it kind of points to a central problem with determining how close Japan was or wasn't to surrender, which is important because that determines how necessary the atomic bombings were - decision making power was decentralized and divided between opposing factions. The Emperor was the ultimate authority but the extent of his involvement in decision making and his motivations were purposely obscured in the immediate postwar period.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:34
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Grapplejack posted:I'm personally of the opinion that the land invasion of Japan was never going to happen, full stop. It would be too costly. They wanted to strangle them, but the soviets forced that option out. If the bombs didn't exist they would have gotten a brokered peace and probably get to keep Korea. The Soviets weren't going to let them keep Korea, and also the US was paranoid of the Soviets eventually landing in Hokkaido even if such a landing would be a token affair. The US didn't just need to defeat Japan totally but do it in a very rapid amount of time (days and weeks, not months). The bombs were part of the calculation of surrender but in all honesty, the US really didn't care about Japanese civilian causalities...thats back justification.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:35
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Groovelord Neato posted:this should be like having a holocaust denier on your show. Sadly, this only makes sense to people once the genocide has already taken place.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:36
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AOC: More savage than Randy and quite possibly the greatest human alive. https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1066833125156753408 https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1066833938474242049 https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1066837143845302272
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Nov 26, 2018 00:36
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Phi230 posted:Yeah there's such similarity between Neocon regime change and empowering socialist movements to take power on their own. Oh wait, there isn't. you seem to have interpreted the world "reinvade" in a very strange and counter-intuitive way. W/e though, I'll leave you to your dreams of a fantasy land where everything is sunshine and flowers. You clearly have no interest in what it takes to get there.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:37
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Groovelord Neato posted:this should be like having a holocaust denier on your show. Chuck Todd is a garbo centrist who over-books Republicans and then lets them away with whatever insanity they want to spew on his show. Whatup?
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Nov 26, 2018 00:37
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Extremely cool that we're simultaneously committing war crimes in Tijuana while also winking and nodding at Putin committing war crimes in Ukraine. The Gish Gallop but with war crimes.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:38
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This is fine. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1066838173878243329
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Nov 26, 2018 00:39
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Dad Jokes posted:Extremely cool that we're simultaneously committing war crimes in Tijuana while also winking and nodding at Putin committing war crimes in Ukraine. Not new.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:40
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hank paulson got 400 million dollars tax free when he joined bush 2's admin. wondering if daddy bush's law covers all those severance payments.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:42
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Fulchrum posted:I knew it, I loving knew it. Your response is just to throw a meaningless buzzword at the problem and then smugly act like you solved it. And you actually think that makes you a good person, and not just a self satisfied rear end in a top hat. owned (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 26, 2018 00:42
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CommieGIR posted:It merited enough for the Emporer to personally mention the nuclear weapons in his speech to the people. Pre-nukes the Japanese plan was to reach some sort of negotiated surrender while they bleed out the Allies in a protracted, bloody home islands defense. The Japanese High Command knew after Midway is was hosed. The rest of the war was them hoping to score a quick victory to two and then get a negotiated peace. As Lightning Knight said, Japan knew the USSR was going to dogpile them after the war in Europe ended. Their defensive plans assumed this. So the Soviets entering the war had no part in the sudden change. The plan of bloody street to street fighting doesn't work when the enemy can reduce a city to cinders in a split second. They realized their previous strategy wasn't going to work and surrendered, unconditionally. The demand for unconditional surrender is a movie cliche at this point, but in 1945 it was unproved, untested and controversial. Since the conception of the Great Powers almost all wars had been fought to a conditional surrender. Plenty of people assumed that the call for unconditional surrender was bluster and aimed at getting a more favorable negotiated surrender. A better question is: "If the US had offered Japan terms similar to what the Allies ended up giving them, would they have surrendered sooner?".
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Nov 26, 2018 00:42
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Groovelord Neato posted:this should be like having a holocaust denier on your show. https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/1066716394740490240 Ben's Asse: "You can't legislate or regulate your way into the past, we have to innovate our way into the future." He's the worst.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:43
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Dad Jokes posted:Extremely cool that we're simultaneously committing war crimes in Tijuana while also winking and nodding at Putin committing war crimes in Ukraine. The media are like puppies, if you throw too many sticks at once they'll just seize up and whine plaintively at you for being confusing. Sadly, unlike puppies, the media is neither huggable nor lovable.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:44
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i'd want to become a senator just to talk poo poo to ben's dumb face.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:44
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Conspiratiorist posted:I wouldn't be shocked if he takes credit for it. Everyone worked very hard, and we all came together, its the biggest fleet invasion anybody has ever seen, nobody would have believed it, I had to make a lot of calls to make this happen but you don't hear about that from the fake news media, but in a certain period of time EXCUSE ME EXCUSE ME
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Nov 26, 2018 00:44
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