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ToxicSlurpee posted:That's the difference, really. There's nothing wrong at all with waiting for marriage. What's wrong is acting like it gives one moral superiority over those that didn't. I think the moral superiority aspect ties into making them appear to be a leader or authority - I'm a good person because of this, you should listen to me and not do this.... or that, or the other thing as well. Then there's the emotional effect on known stable rocks like teenagers. I can't imagine feeling like you let down yourself, your parents, your friends, your church, your future spouse, and god has a positive effect on other things in life or future emotional/moral development; even if nobody else knows, you're carrying around shame towards yourself and fear that people might find out. THEN there's the whole SexEd angle. You shouldn't have sex before marriage, so don't do it; we won't teach you about STDs, making babies, or any of that because you deserve the consequences if you let us all down. Forget making it easy to get condoms or birth control, that's basically the same as encouraging teenagers to have sex and would make the providers of them just as guilty as the kids by suggesting it's OK! I've got nothing against people that want to wait anymore than I do people that never want to have sex, or want to get paid for it, or get paid and filmed, etc. The problem is evangelizing this as the one true path and wrapping it up with everything else. It's even worse for girls, since they're the ones that get pregnant and stigmatized, the boys rarely suffer any consequences of any significance while the girl is 'ruined' and basically a discount bin garage sale commodity. I think the sex before marriage thing comes closest to encapsulating everything wrong with religion (particularly evangelicals), at least in the last 50-100 years; I can't really speak to it before then (I think it went from just how society looked at sex to a specifically religious thing fairly recently).
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Nov 25, 2018 20:22
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PhazonLink posted:funny how you never hear anything from the wives of these paragons of family super conservative values. Well, 53% of white women voted for Trump so you hear from them on a certain level. I know a LOT of conservative women voters, several of whom are gay, that are as nasty, single minded, misinformed and as angry as the white males who lead and speak for the "movement". I don't know if it's Stockholm Syndrome or what you want to call it but I don't get the demographics of people who vote for and identify with a political party that makes no secret of the fact that they're seen as lesser human beings within the party's very structure, policy and world view. I have a conservative stripper friend and a black ex-con Trump supporting co-worker of all things. I honestly can't figure it out
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Nov 25, 2018 20:23
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i don't even mean it from the religious or "we're morally superior angle" it's broke brained because being good at sex requires practice. i can't imagine having awkward teenage sex as a grown rear end adult with the person i'm supposed to spend the rest of my life with (and what if we're incompatible? that's gonna be a short marriage.)
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Nov 25, 2018 22:38
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ZDar Fan posted:Eh, I have some perfectly normal and cool friends who waited until marriage. But they never went out of their way to broadcast that fact, nor did they judge anyone who was sexually active, so I guess that's the difference. To me it's weird to wait for marriage and gamble your libidos and preferences will match up, but I agree. Stephen Fry made a great point about the catholic church's sexual obsession being like binging and/or purging with food instead of just eating healthily. I think there are plenty of people who can choose to wait or just have less sex than we expect in our society and still be perfectly mentally healthy, and even people who are straight up asexual. As long as it's honestly what works for them I think it's healthy. I'm not saying Fry's analogy is perfect, I mean he's made mistakes like falling for the 'political correctness' false premise that free speech and hate speech are the same, but hey he's getting older now.
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Nov 25, 2018 22:58
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I think there's also a lot of misconceptions that probably comes into play. Like I've known people who "waited" but who also didn't wait until marriage. They waited until they had deep, long term relationships built on everything else and really coming to the "marriage?" point and sooner or later either trusted their partners enough, felt "close enough" to the finish line, or figured they should figure out some of the last things about their relationship before it got more complicated. Some of those relationships are still going well, some didn't, but there's a rational and unzealous way to "wait" or "abstain". Like, the reality is that people engaging in abstinence in a rational and personal way probably just won't get noticed because you're probably not aware of their views unless you're really close or you're trying to have sex with them. In the same way that there's really lots of decent religious people but they're not the ones you're noticing because they're actually living their morals. Self righteous assholes screaming that they're better than you because they waited are something else. Sex isn't actually their driving thing.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:12
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My family and community still does the whole arranged marriage bullshit (though it's been somewhat "liberalized" in recent years), and most of them seem pretty okay with how things turned out. Personally, I can't imagine having sex with only one person for your entire life. Especially with so many attractive people out there.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:08
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it just feels like waiting to eat or sleep until you're in your 20s.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:19
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I don't understand the issue people have with virgins for whatever reason they are one.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:40
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Star Man posted:I don't understand the issue people have with virgins for whatever reason they are one. Nobody cares if you're a virgin unless you're the idiot who thinks you're better for your permanently dry dick, be you conservative dweeb or strait edge nerd
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Nov 26, 2018 01:03
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Mr Interweb posted:My family and community still does the whole arranged marriage bullshit (though it's been somewhat "liberalized" in recent years), and most of them seem pretty okay with how things turned out. Something something value of virtue something something family honor. It's nothing but a means of social control over women more then men. There have been some stories posted either here or elsewhere about how being raised for 2 decades told you must be chaste in the eyes of God until you marry that even being married then having sex for the first time feels evil and sinful because you've been raised to view it as a duty to God and a man and not someone to enjoy, desire, or express interest in. For example, how many of those purity balls were mothers taking their sons to have a dance and swear a chastity vow? There's a great piece of evidence that for everyone preaching abstinence, they really only care about controlling girls/women.
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Nov 26, 2018 01:07
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Nobody cares if you're a virgin unless you're the idiot who thinks you're better for your permanently dry dick, be you conservative dweeb or strait edge nerd I've known a few men that proclaimed their chastity as a virtue for religious reasons and they're really loving obnoxious. Meanwhile, people who are nominally religious or not at all shame you if you haven't had sex. You just can't win with anyone.
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Nov 26, 2018 01:14
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Generic American posted:You forgot the most WTF part of her saga before it fizzled out. uh, she uses that line on who she thinks are liberal operatives too
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Nov 26, 2018 02:12
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Nobody cares if you're a virgin unless you're the idiot who thinks you're better for your permanently dry dick, be you conservative dweeb or strait edge nerd There are quite a few people in this very thread who have made it clear that they think you're unhealthy if your sexual behaviors don't line up with their expectations. It's kind of the central issue of this derail.
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Nov 26, 2018 03:17
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fishmech posted:I really want you to step back and think about what American suburbia looked like in say, the 70s and 80s, much less before. Think about what kind of media parents allowed kids to be exposed to, what sort of things were allowed to be taught in school, what sort of people were even allowed in the same school, where kids were being brought a minimum of once a week for outside-school instruction, etc. This has been brought up before, but although Young/College Republicans have always existed, sure. But I feel like there's something qualitatively different about this new breed: quote:Since 2012, PragerU has posted nearly 300 similarly digestible videos. Some of them dabble in topics like parenting or financial advice, but most cover core conservative doctrines. Delivering tidy arguments without the Limbaughesque acid reflux, they have accrued, collectively, just over 1 billion views—nearly 700 million in 2017 alone, according to marketing director Craig Strazzeri. quote:Prager’s radio show has about 2 million weekly listeners (to Rush Limbaugh’s 14 million), but PragerU’s appeal goes well beyond the graying talk-radio audience. More than 60 percent of its viewers are younger than 35, according to YouTube analytics. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/03/inside-right-wing-youtube-turning-millennials-conservative-prageru-video-dennis-prager/ Furthermore, I think the Right has become a bit more clever about how to spread their message and get people into the fold. They've weaponized sentiment against identity politics in a way that I haven't seen before. If you notice, many of those youtube channels that have those "SJW/Feminist/Transgender activist DESTROYED by X" videos don't explicitly argue for Trump or specifically right-wing policies (sure, many do, but lots don't). But what they do is they tell you who you should be against. Same thing with with the growth of sites like Quillette, which presents itself as a supposedly centrist website, but exclusively focuses on criticizing the Left. And anecdotally speaking, I met quite a disturbing number of people while going to University that adored Milo back in the day. Also, too. The thing that made me notice this was more troubling than usual is that the anti-idpol sides has allies not only on the Right, but a significant amount from the Left as well. I know self-proclaimed Marxists that utterly love Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder and Jordan Peterson for example. I hope I'm wrong, but it definitely seems like there's going to be a larger proportion of new generation Republicans than before. Mr Interweb fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Nov 26, 2018 |
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Nov 26, 2018 03:25
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Mr Interweb posted:This has been brought up before, but although Young/College Republicans have always existed, sure. But I feel like there's something qualitatively different about this new breed: Those sure are a lot of scary numbers, but I'm very confident that if you went back and counted up the media time young people soaked up from conservative viewpoints 30-40 years ago, it'd look about the same, if not even more conservative.Like, where do you think all the old conservatives of today came from? Not many were convinced into the modern republican platform the day they turned 35, they were pushed into it by their whole community and media back when they were kids and never really left it. And before them? You had Joe McCarthy forcing people out of the public media altogether just because people thought they might be a "race mixer" and therefore Communist, let alone any instance of them supporting some kind of leftist policy. But here's the basic thing: there won't be a larger proportion of new Republicans than before because frankly, the young people of today are way the gently caress less white and straight than gen x was, or the boomers, etc. The whole all-in-on-racism poo poo has continued to demolish things like the major headways made into Latino communities under George Bush for example, and it in general has very little way to ever turn back. And then you add on top that for as much as people loving whine that right wing videos show up at all there's way more "left" media available than there's basically ever been. It's just not interesting to make agony articles about "person is recommended video by someone who isn't a piece of poo poo" even though that's happening billions of times a day too.
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Nov 26, 2018 03:44
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Star Man posted:You just can't win with anyone. But enough about my sex life. I got divorced 2.5 years ago and am not getting laid at all. I choose not brag about this fact.
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Nov 26, 2018 04:25
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BiggerBoat posted:But enough about my sex life. Have you considered making it the defining trait of your personality?
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Nov 26, 2018 05:01
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Mr Interweb posted:My family and community still does the whole arranged marriage bullshit (though it's been somewhat "liberalized" in recent years), and most of them seem pretty okay with how things turned out. There's actually a weird human psychological quirk that's basically the reason for that. For the most part if you're locked into one decision your brain finds ways to rationalize it as for the best, in the end, even if there was a better option available at the time. If there are options available at all our brain tends to be plagued with doubt while looking at the good parts of the other options and the lovely parts of the option you actually picked and deal with day in day out. Brains are freaking weird and we really are our own worst enemies.
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Nov 26, 2018 07:33
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Mr Interweb posted:This has been brought up before, but although Young/College Republicans have always existed, sure. But I feel like there's something qualitatively different about this new breed: Prager's reach isn't double the population of the US. That's 700 million spread between 300 videos. If you divide it out you get 2.3 million per video which is really pretty good for YouTube, but I would bet there's a ton of overlap between the radio show, the viewers of one video, and the viewers of any other video. Also, left-punching has been a thing in US popular culture for decades and decades. Go back and watch some comedy specials from the 70's and 80's. You'll find a lot of conservative ideas being peddled by people who claimed to not be conservative at the time. The thing that's changed is that the path from soft bigotry to explicit bigotry has been smoothed out by algorithms and availability. If you watched a Denis Leary special in the early 90's it was a gateway to being a prick, but not directly to white supremacy and fascism. With YouTube you can start out with something mildly controversial, and then just through recommendations you can chain your way to the really horrifying poo poo. The same goes for traditional media now too. Jordan Peterson is a good example because he is mostly a YouTube dweeb, but he garnered enough attention to get featured on traditional media. That functions as a bridge from more apolitical traditional media to the YouTube cesspit. Media and critical thinking education has gotten slightly better over time, but education about fascism and white supremacy in US school systems has been about as well-considered as Nancy Reagan's Just Say No campaign for drugs. ALL age groups are exposed to YouTube and encouraged by traditional media to seek out social media. You have kids and the elderly consuming content they have no way to contextualize. I really don't think the right has gotten any better at their talking points. I just think the decentralization of media has led to a larger reach for what used to only really be available on public access. It didn't have to be this way, but moderating content is hard so the large social media platforms don't do it. They just fall back on "free speech," whenever it turns out their platform is helping foment literal genocide. ErIog fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Nov 26, 2018 |
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Nov 26, 2018 08:18
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One of the big issues with right wing stuff is that it's often carefully constructed propaganda that grinds on fear and insecurity instead of actual logic. A core problem is that propaganda works on enough people that it works in the aggregate. The American left (well, center right more like...we don't have any leftist parties with actual influence) very badly needs to up its propaganda game. The core message from the right is "you should be afraid of all these things but don't worry, we'll protect you from them."
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Nov 26, 2018 08:51
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Mr Interweb posted:This has been brought up before, but although Young/College Republicans have always existed, sure. But I feel like there's something qualitatively different about this new breed: What's so strange and new about it? It' just your bog standard anti-outgroup right wing recruiting tactic hate and dogwhistle. This time it is simply directed at people fitting certain sodcial markers as opposed to the more traditional racial and religious ones.
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Nov 26, 2018 09:26
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Munin posted:What's so strange and new about it? It' just your bog standard anti-outgroup right wing recruiting tactic hate and dogwhistle. This time it is simply directed at people fitting certain sodcial markers as opposed to the more traditional racial and religious ones. The new breed are leading with the quiet part loud and the loud part quiet. Which, in the age of Trump, makes sense, but it is a discernible difference.
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Nov 26, 2018 11:01
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Further, in regards to social media, the right continues the very effective tactic of accusing others of what they themselves do. FB and social media in general, as has been mentioned, is very effective for them but all they do is whine about "censorship" and various platforms attacking them or shutting them down.
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Nov 26, 2018 13:35
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BiggerBoat posted:Further, in regards to social media, the right continues the very effective tactic of accusing others of what they themselves do. FB and social media in general, as has been mentioned, is very effective for them but all they do is whine about "censorship" and various platforms attacking them or shutting them down. It's worth noting that the loudest voices complaining of censorship are the people who really want to use ethnic slurs. No one is having their Twitter taken away for saying the small business tax rate should be lower or there should be changes to the labour code. I think there's an element of far-right bigotry that is masquerading as small-c conservatism and well-meaning but tribal conservatives end up defending them because they're "part of the team." But the extreme isn't part of the team. They're hucksters and liars and they don't care about the middle. Principled conservatives need to see these snake-oil salesmen for who they are. Their movement is being co-opted by hatred and they're going along with it. I'm sure some of them are absolutely fine with that, but I hope that there are many more who feel trapped between this team they thought they belonged to and don't want to leave and the harsh reality that it's headed down a dark path. Maybe I'm naive, but I think there are still right-wingers who are reasonable people who may disagree with left-wingers but don't actually view them as an unreasonable enemy that must be defeated at all costs. HackensackBackpack fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Nov 26, 2018 |
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Nov 26, 2018 15:23
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Leofish posted:Maybe I'm naive, but I think there are still right-wingers who are reasonable people who may disagree with left-wingers but don't actually view them as an unreasonable enemy that must be defeated at all costs. There really aren't many right-wing positions that don't TL;DR down to FYGM, with "you" being working class, vulnerable, or minority people. I honestly can't think of any at the moment, but there's probably one or two that are just misguided instead of dreadful.
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Nov 26, 2018 15:43
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https://twitter.com/vadimnewquist/status/1066452957879828482
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Nov 26, 2018 17:51
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Just decided to do the rounds. NBC/CNN/HuffPo/BBC/NYTimes/WaPost are all leading with GM cutting jobs. Fox News is leading with the Mars Lander mission, followed by 2 opinion pieces about european open border laws and AOC's comparing the migrants to Jews fleeing the Holocaust, then something about South Korean Puppies and also Axl Rose is sick. The delay while they try how to spin things is getting longer and longer.
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Nov 26, 2018 17:59
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I recognize the first two (Crowder and Watson, right?) but who's the last one?
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Nov 26, 2018 18:22
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Lemme guess, the "comedy" Soypanic is talking about is assholes wearing wigs going "huhuh I'm trans, can't arrest me for rape!" or some other incredibly stupid thing.
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Nov 26, 2018 18:26
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mojo1701a posted:I recognize the first two (Crowder and Watson, right?) but who's the last one? Who the gently caress is Watson.(dont actully care, a trillion for a dime grifers trying to be youtube famous is worthless info) PhazonLink fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 26, 2018 |
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Nov 26, 2018 18:32
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Leofish posted:
I have some bad news for you about how fascist regimes come in to existence, eliminate political oposition and gain power.
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Nov 26, 2018 18:48
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It bears repeating that the Right’s best examples of masculinity are- -a bloated orange man -a kid who dresses in diapers to ‘own the libs’ -a YouTube professor who looks like a corpse
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Nov 26, 2018 19:05
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not just a bloated orange man but a fancy lad who's never worked a day in his life.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:10
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FlamingLiberal posted:It bears repeating that the Right’s best examples of masculinity are-
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Nov 26, 2018 19:14
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I will not be remotely surprised if Peterson drops dead while filming because he has sickle cell anemia
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Nov 26, 2018 19:58
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ToxicSlurpee posted:One of the big issues with right wing stuff is that it's often carefully constructed propaganda that grinds on fear and insecurity instead of actual logic. A core problem is that propaganda works on enough people that it works in the aggregate. The American left (well, center right more like...we don't have any leftist parties with actual influence) very badly needs to up its propaganda game. The core message from the right is "you should be afraid of all these things but don't worry, we'll protect you from them." Exactly. The right understands and uses propaganda effectively. The terrifying aspect is that Trump is outright using propaganda from Nazi Germany (the migrants are bringing disease) and his base is marching right along.
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Nov 26, 2018 20:41
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FlamingLiberal posted:It bears repeating that the Right’s best examples of masculinity are- And Ben Garrison will still draw all of them like they’re 8 ft tall and more jacked and chiseled than The Rock anyway. Reality doesn’t matter to these people.
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Nov 26, 2018 21:41
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Leofish posted:Principled conservatives need to see these snake-oil salesmen for who they are. Their movement is being co-opted by hatred and they're going along with it. I'm sure some of them are absolutely fine with that, but I hope that there are many more who feel trapped between this team they thought they belonged to and don't want to leave and the harsh reality that it's headed down a dark path. Observing the actions and legislation over the last, say, 35 years, I'd argue that the 'principled conservatives' were the visible group that made reasonable sounding things while a bunch of fygm assholes ran things behind the scenes. The ones that aren't virulent towards pretty much every group unlike them are going under cover hoping this blows over so they can salvage their career after 2020 instead of sticking their necks out now (Kasich seems to be the exception here). As a result, the racists and horrible people are largely unchecked, and the closet racists are having a giant coming out party. I don't think there are as many 'moderates' as you think, and most of them aren't in a position to do anything. They'd rather bet on Trumpism dying out so they can emerge unsullied, ironically empowering it in the short term. And let's not pretend these 'principled' conservatives were particularly good leaders in a more macro sense. They voted to do all the same things, supported torture, cuts to the safety net and tax cuts for the rich, supported forever war and creating an underclass in the US. All they really had going for them was not outright calling other ethnic groups slurs and blatantly discriminating. I mean, Bill Krystal is being held up as a reasonable person on cable news right now; he'd implement 90% of what Trump wants to do if he just acted like less of a jackass.
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Nov 26, 2018 23:00
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Is that one of Watson from when he melted down after hbomberguy made a video mocking him and pointing out his brain pills had huge amounts of soy or soy derivatives in them?
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Nov 26, 2018 23:19
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Nucleic Acids posted:Is that one of Watson from when he melted down after hbomberguy made a video mocking him and pointing out his brain pills had huge amounts of soy or soy derivatives in them? Maybe? I know he had an H.bomb-related one, but Prison Paul has a meltdown a week over stuff normal people just shrug at, so it’s a little hard to gauge.
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Nov 27, 2018 00:01
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