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Fart City posted:Watching Ben Shapiro turn into Large Marge while AOC remains chill as gently caress would be fun, though. The second biggest mistake people make when debating these people (the first mistake being agreeing in the first place) is underestimating their ability to remain calm and look like they're winning. This is made possible by them not caring about a topic while their opponent does, and this will reflect in their demeanor. Americans, by and large, regard the one that keeps their cool and stays on the offensive as the "winner". If anyone thinks they could get up on a stage and own Ben Shapiro they are probably wrong, with a few exceptions (someone like Matt Bruenig could probably nail him but he's kind of uniquely suited to such a task).
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Nov 26, 2018 19:24
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also, repeat anecdote vaguely supporting your argument in a really fast smart sounding voice will sway almost everybody immediately in a debate basically debates are there to convince undecideds and undecideds are almost always idiots who will fall for simple tricks and logical fallacies
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Nov 26, 2018 19:25
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The tariffs thing is interesting because Bernie was boosting the effort to impose tariffs on Chinese steel. If Ford is honest they would have been hurt by a Sanders trade policy too.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:26
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VH4Ever posted:She should dunk on them once on Twitter and move on. She already did this once https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1027729430137827328
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Nov 26, 2018 19:27
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CommieGIR posted:LMAO, do we really need to cycle through the videos where he gets in pissing matches with people in the crowd? He's only a 'Good Debater' in that he's what the Right views as good debate, which is to belittle and gish-gallop away any counterpoints. basically verbal debates where you argue over complex topics which would take hours of study just to scratch the surface are worthless in actually learning about a topic other than taking away slogans and catch-phrases the thing they are good for is generating youtube views and comments, and shapiro is really good at that Christopher Hitchens was good at debating in the exact same way and he had people lining up to blow him, so he wins the debate hands-down over his opponent, even if his opponent is right and he's wrong
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Nov 26, 2018 19:27
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Yes chuds, boost her profile further. I'm sure she hates it.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:28
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I would hope Bernie tariffs would be more considered and not as blanket and punitive, therefore less damaging, but no way to know that for sure
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Nov 26, 2018 19:28
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Ytlaya posted:But the lying (and even the affair) isn't the really bad part? The bad part is the "becoming sexually involved with someone you have power over" (who is also far, far younger, making the power dynamic even worse). I literally just said the lying was the bad part, dude. As for the affair, I'm not sure a legal argument could have been made unless Lewinsky herself came forward and accused Clinton of assault. Unless she did and I don't remember--I was only 11 or 12 when the whole mess started.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:28
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Deified Data posted:Yes chuds, boost her profile further. I'm sure she hates it. socialism, free rent inside their heads, drops mic, etc.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:28
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How to win a debate: "Gee, [person I already agree with] did really well in that debate, [z/s]he really owned the other person [whom I don't agree with]!"
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Nov 26, 2018 19:28
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LinYutang posted:The tariffs thing is interesting because Bernie was boosting the effort to impose tariffs on Chinese steel. If Ford is honest they would have been hurt by a Sanders trade policy too. bernie dislikes Chinese trade policy? gently caress, I knew he was secretly an enemy of international socialism AlBorlantern Corps posted:I would hope Bernie tariffs would be more considered and not as blanket and punitive, therefore less damaging, but no way to know that for sure inshallah we'll find out and i'll be making grumpyposts about how he's too protectionist for my liking
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Nov 26, 2018 19:29
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:I literally just said the lying was the bad part, dude. I think you misread my post; I'm saying the lying wasn't the bad part. The power dynamic is the worst part, and morally speaking should have been considered a "fireable offense" (even if there's no way it would have actually had that outcome in reality). It's basically like a graduate TA dating a student, only way way worse. edit: I mean, the lying is also bad I guess, just not the main issue
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Nov 26, 2018 19:30
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CommieGIR posted:LMAO, do we really need to cycle through the videos where he gets in pissing matches with people in the crowd? He's only a 'Good Debater' in that he's what the Right views as good debate, which is to belittle and gish-gallop away any counterpoints. If you took a standard American audience of average (uninformed) voters, they would likely say that Ben Shapiro is the winner in a debate against most people who are not prepared for the format. A debate is not about the truth or making logical reasoned points. At the end the audience is not going to go "wait a minute, what he just said was total horseshit! Why, I read several studies the other day that prove he's wrong, and now he's being smug when he has no basis for acting like that!" No, they are going to go "gosh, he sounds so smart and articulate, so poised! His opponent is just stammering awkwardly about how he's wrong or lying or whatever. I've heard enough, Ben wins!" Unfortunately, presidential candidates are forced to have 3 highly-televised debates, but we can coach our candidate up in the art of shallow bullshittery when the time comes.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:31
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Jaxyon posted:How to win a debate: "Watch [Correct Person] ABSOLUTELY DEMOLISH [Wrong Person]" is kind of a trope at this point and it speaks to the nature of organized debate that I don't think I've ever agreed with one of those titles. Found the correct opinion more convincing and agreeable than the wrong one, sure, but rarely do these ever feel like the wrong opinion was meaningfully refuted. Almost always it's very easy to imagine the same thing being posted by a chud with the opposite headline.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:32
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Lightning Knight posted:Meh, they're not wrong that it would be awesome if we could see a woman defeat Trump.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:33
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:"Whatever their values might be, we need a woman running in order to turn out the base." lmao Well yeah that is dumb. It's not wrong for people to be frustrated and feel unrepresented because the country is disproportionately controlled by old white guys tho.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:36
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It's real cool to be all "everything he says is false and his refutations are all logical fallacies. What an ignoramus!"  but none of that matters when audiences find his arguments appealing and sensible. Platforming CHUDs only breeds more CHUDs, because easy explainations and answers make intuitive sense vs some smarty pants giving rules lawyering and telling us that everything is our fault and we're the ones who have to change. The Nazis weren't good debaters, they gave people easy answers and external groups to blame. Debating Nazis just recruits more Nazis.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:37
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Rigel posted:If you took a standard American audience of average (uninformed) voters, they would likely say that Ben Shapiro is the winner in a debate against most people who are not prepared for the format. funny story: Obama had this exact opinion about debating Romney and he hated it, so in the first debate in 2012 he basically kept going about complex Obamacare policy proposals and everybody went whoa he lost. So afterwards Axelrod was like ok mr.president you know people watch debates for zingers and funny poo poo right? And for the 2nd/3rd debate they literally took away all the policy papers and gave him a single sheet of paper with a bunch of hottake comebacks on it and he crushed romney by coming up with a bunch of good disses on the spot. Which just goes to show that debates are just reality TV, which goes a long way to explain TRUMP
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Nov 26, 2018 19:37
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Typo posted:funny story: Obama had this exact opinion about debating Romney and he hated it, so in the first debate in 2012 he basically kept going about complex Obamacare policy proposals and everybody went whoa he lost. i don't clearly remember the debates but if this is true it makes me sad
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Nov 26, 2018 19:38
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https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1067125109318721537
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Nov 26, 2018 19:39
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i don't clearly remember the debates but if this is true it makes me sad it's from game change 2012 it's pretty hilarious but ultimately sad episode of us politics
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Nov 26, 2018 19:40
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Deified Data posted:"Watch [Correct Person] ABSOLUTELY DEMOLISH [Wrong Person]" is kind of a trope at this point and it speaks to the nature of organized debate that I don't think I've ever agreed with one of those titles. Found the correct opinion more convincing and agreeable than the wrong one, sure, but rarely do these ever feel like the wrong opinion was meaningfully refuted. Almost always it's very easy to imagine the same thing being posted by a chud with the opposite headline. "Demolishing" someone in a debate requires them to either admit that they're wrong or visibly just fall apart, neither of which ever really happen in real life. Someone like Ben Shapiro gets by because he doesn't give a gently caress if he's wrong, he's going to just keep talking as if he's completely right all the time.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:40
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maybe it's an espy supporter inciting violence against hyde-smith
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Nov 26, 2018 19:40
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VH4Ever posted:Is that like a known fact? The stated reason, and this has been the case for years now, is cars aren't selling and these factories, by and large, build cars. The Lordstown plant only builds the Chevy Cruze, which ain't selling. Not saying tariffs don't play a part but I'm not sure it's the main cause here, and believe me if it were I'd be glad to point it out. This trend though away from sedans and towards crossovers and SUVs has been going on for many years, plus with sales falling off record setting peaks which again, began their decline before most of the tariffs were in place. Tariffs don't help but I don't think they're most of the cause of today's bloodletting. Sedan sales being sluggish was impacting decisions yes, however the reason the poo poo hit the fan with Ford specifically was the tariffs on aluminum. Steel tariffs are a big problem too, but there are a lot of alternative sources of steel. A big portion of the automotive sector gets aluminum from Canada, and those tariffs are hitting the industry hard. While you can foist some of this onto consumers, automotive is an insanely competitive industry so you can only raise prices so much before people stop buying your stuff, this means cost cutting which manifests as shutting down vehicle lines, plants, and layoffs.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:41
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Every journalist who uses euphemisms like "racially charged" should just be fired upon submitting their stories to the editor.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:41
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/jpodhoretz/status/1067102717573775360 deleted: 
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Nov 26, 2018 19:41
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i don't clearly remember the debates but if this is true it makes me sad I remember one when Romney was going on about how "WE HAVE LESS SHIPS IN OUR NAVY" and Obama hit him with a zinger asking him if he realizes we don't fight wars with muskets and cannons anymore.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:41
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mango sentinel posted:It's real cool to be all "everything he says is false and his refutations are all logical fallacies. What an ignoramus!" I'm certainly not advocating that AOC debate skunkfuckers like Kirk or Shapiro; she's got better things to do. The question is whether they're actually good debaters or just really good at shouting over their opponents, and whether their repeated debate challenges on Twitter should go completely ignored or ridiculed.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:41
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/jpodhoretz/status/1067102717573775360 everyone in the military has to deal with live fire exercises in training! therefore citizens should be ok when an active shooter is around!!  Squalid posted:I think you are giving the too much credit. On this subject people resort to vague or even nonsensical criticisms of free trade because they have nothing substative to say, usually out of ignorance. Most of the time when someone points to sweatshops its simply a stalking horse. They don't really know anything about factory conditions in Vietnam or China or Bangladesh, and they don't care what the workers involved actually want or what would make their circumstances better. Instead its just a rhetorical bludgeon used to excuse their own selfish and misguided efforts to protect domestic industry. Efforts we know are actually bad for most workers in the countries thus protected. sweatshops are just a stalking horse... ok why don't you go work in one squalid?
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Nov 26, 2018 19:42
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friendbot2000 posted:I remember one when Romney was going on about how "WE HAVE LESS SHIPS IN OUR NAVY" and Obama hit him with a zinger asking him if he realizes we don't fight wars with muskets and cannons anymore. Actually he said "horses and bayonets", leading to a week long pedant-fest about how "well ACKshully we DO have bayonets still, take that President Kenyan Muslim "
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Nov 26, 2018 19:42
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GreyjoyBastard posted:maybe it's an espy supporter inciting violence against hyde-smith Its just to draw Hyde-Smith out like a fly to sugar water.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:42
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Paradoxish posted:I don't really know how to respond to this since it's impossible to discuss anything if we're just going to assume that everyone who wants a particular policy is a bad actor who is secretly working to undermine that particular policy. We can say for absolute certain that exploitative working conditions that exist as part of a race to the bottom for the labor market objectively do not exist for the benefits of workers, and any reduction to poverty is just an incidental effect. That alone is a perfectly valid reason to criticize nations that allow those conditions to exist. "But maybe people who want better working conditions are actually secret protectionists!" isn't really, because it has nothing to do with the thing we're actually talking about. All you're saying is that if we want to do something then we should do it right which, I mean, yeah. I agree. I would absolutely love, LOVE, to have a real discussion about how best to make trade work, the unintended consequences of NAFTA and other deals, and how we can improve the present circumstances so that they work for all the workers of the world. Unfortunately when I try and have this conversation I get replies like, "when the entire world is run by socialists, these questions will be irrelevant." Kind of hard to engage with that. So instead I'm stuck defending the basic concept of trade from people who as far as I can tell agree entirely with Trump when he says "Trade is bad," and tries to kill all free trade agreements on principle. Maybe I'll go ahead and post a thread about it, though atm I'm a too busy and frankly shouldn't even be browsing this thread during lunch.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:43
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Holy poo poo this is ugly decoration at the WH Be Best Pencils
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Nov 26, 2018 19:44
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friendbot2000 posted:I remember one when Romney was going on about how "WE HAVE LESS SHIPS IN OUR NAVY" and Obama hit him with a zinger asking him if he realizes we don't fight wars with muskets and cannons anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfkOXQXdUjs I remember binders full of women, Big Bird, the Ryan/Biden debate... man 2012 was so much more fun lol. "We have these things called 'aircraft carriers,' where planes land on them" is actually the most brutal part of this exchange.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:44
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Condiv posted:everyone in the military has to deal with live fire exercises in training! therefore citizens should be ok when an active shooter is around!!
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Nov 26, 2018 19:44
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WoodrowSkillson posted:btw its cool and good to have a directly personal reason to hate trump as the main reason ford and gm are making these cuts is the tariffs Sorry, friend. I voted as hard as I could. Good luck finding a new job, homie, you'll get through it.
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Nov 26, 2018 19:44
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friendbot2000 posted:I remember one when Romney was going on about how "WE HAVE LESS SHIPS IN OUR NAVY" and Obama hit him with a zinger asking him if he realizes we don't fight wars with muskets and cannons anymore. romney: "have you looked at your pension mr.president" obama: ''I don't look at my pension, it's not as big as yours,'' *audience thinks obama wins debate*
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Nov 26, 2018 19:45
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Lightning Knight posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfkOXQXdUjs Two words: "Proceed, Governor."
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Nov 26, 2018 19:45
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Decided to see what T_D thought of the GM news and surprise surprise Why do people even waste their time going there? I'm convinced y'all do it because you secretly like what they say, I can't think of why else you'd punch yourself in the dick and balls so willingly by reading that racist garbage. Look, they're cultish racists. We get it. Can you guys stop bringing that trash ITT? WoodrowSkillson posted:Sedan sales being sluggish was impacting decisions yes, however the reason the poo poo hit the fan with Ford specifically was the tariffs on aluminum. Steel tariffs are a big problem too, but there are a lot of alternative sources of steel. A big portion of the automotive sector gets aluminum from Canada, and those tariffs are hitting the industry hard. While you can foist some of this onto consumers, automotive is an insanely competitive industry so you can only raise prices so much before people stop buying your stuff, this means cost cutting which manifests as shutting down vehicle lines, plants, and layoffs. Maybe I'm sort of putting you on the spot here but what you say in this response really doesn't address my question terribly specifically. Where specifically did either Ford or GM cite tariffs as the main reasoning behind ceasing to build sedans and small cars in the US, and GM's decision to close 5 factories? You said earlier it was the main reason and I've yet to read anything confirming that. It's an industry I pay a fair bit of attention to so I'm curious why your take is so different than what I've read. VH4Ever fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Nov 26, 2018 |
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Nov 26, 2018 19:45
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Squalid posted:I would absolutely love, LOVE, to have a real discussion about how best to make trade work, the unintended consequences of NAFTA and other deals, and how we can improve the present circumstances so that they work for all the workers of the world. Unfortunately when I try and have this conversation I get replies like, "when the entire world is run by socialists, these questions will be irrelevant." Kind of hard to engage with that. So instead I'm stuck defending the basic concept of trade from people who as far as I can tell agree entirely with Trump when he says "Trade is bad," and tries to kill all free trade agreements on principle. Maybe I'll go ahead and post a thread about it, though atm I'm a too busy and frankly shouldn't even be browsing this thread during lunch. he started discussing with you, and you immediately pivoted away from discussion of sweatshops into complaining about how unreasonable other people are. i kinda doubt you would actually love to have a real discussion on the subject
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Nov 26, 2018 19:46
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