|
IronicDongz posted:Her character just doesn't make nearly as much sense emotionally otherwise. I mean, mothering is her prime directive, but it could easily be because she feels like she's responsible for her own childrens' deaths (Chara and Asriel) as anything else. Undertale is as much about the monsters spinning their wheels forever - the Underground as a purgatory, and all - as the choice between violence and mercy or anything else. Toriel passes judgment on Asgore for his bad decision followed by indecision, but literally every other monster is "stuck" as well; Asriel is a flower slowly becoming a sadist because he's lonely and has power, Toriel sits in the Ruins all day crying about Asriel, Papyrus is a manchild, Undyne is obsessed with fighting to the detriment of any other thing in her life (like cooking or love), Alphys is consumed by guilt and spends all day watching anime and feeling bad for herself, Mettaton is a human-killing robot with no humans to kill who wants to become human and can't. It's the default state for monsterkind. They're all trapped and stagnant. They need a dose of humanity and determination, which Frisk provides, to start living. Even the genocide route hammers this home; Sans laments the fact that he didn't do enough to stop you sooner, because of his promise, but also because he's lazy. Ultimately I don't disagree with you, I just think monsters having fixations is kind of a big part of the story and themes and Toriel totally makes sense either way.
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 16:33 |
|
|
Since the barrier was made by human magicians in the first place clearly the most peaceful thing to do would be to wait for enough humans to fall and try to teach them magic in hopes they'll get really good at it and become good enough to dispel the barrier under their own power.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:20
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:Asgore is a proper old-school tragic character: A good man who is in a horrible situation that's ultimately of his own making, and unable to get out of it due to his own flaws. That's what makes him interesting in the first place. * Though that isn't my reading, personally. All the coffins are the same size, for one. Nep-Nep posted:Since the barrier was made by human magicians in the first place clearly the most peaceful thing to do would be to wait for enough humans to fall and try to teach them magic in hopes they'll get really good at it and become good enough to dispel the barrier under their own power. Elephant Parade fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Nov 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:23
|
|
|
what if the children were capitalists
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:24
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:what if the children were capitalists
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:26
|
|
|
The sight of a disintegrating social contract fills you with NEOLIBERALISM
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:27
|
|
|
I'm kinda glad for the current discussion because this is the only undertale-related thread I've read, and the whole "Asgore (presumably/probably/almost definitely) murdered children but we're just not gonna address that at all in the Good Ending" thing was a massive unresolved issue and rubbed me the wrong way. And it didn't seem like anyone else was talking about it. I dunno what could be done/said in the game to address it sufficiently, but I know it's more than "absolutely nothing." By saying nothing, the game seems to implicitly endorse a message of "killing those kids was okay or justified, and it's all water under the bridge now anyway." For a game with such a wholesome positive message, that was one big glaring omission imo
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:30
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:Child murder is never justified. Is it murder and/or unjustified for Sans to kill the player in the genocide path?
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:33
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:Is it murder and/or justified for Sans to kill the player in the genocide path? that's not child murder, that's child self-defense edit: maybe child manslaughter. IANAML (I am not a monster lawyer) Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:34
|
|
|
Son of Thunderbeast posted:that's not child murder, that's child self-defense also he’s not technically targeting the player avatar (which is effectively a husk at this point) but the schmuck who’s presently controlling it, i.e. us
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:37
|
|
|
Asgore parks himself by the underground exit. Says "I cannot let you leave to tell the other humans about monsters, so to pass, you must defeat me". The human either is stuck and dies eventually of old age/starvation, or is forced to strike first, allowing Asgore to kill them in self defense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:42
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Asgore parks himself by the underground exit. Says "I cannot let you leave to tell the other humans about monsters, so to pass, you must defeat me". The human either is stuck and dies eventually of old age/starvation, or is forced to strike first, allowing Asgore to kill them in self defense. now to be fair, you need a human and a monster soul to get through the barrier, anyone who just wants to leave would have to kill asgore (or toriel?) first either way e: which raises the question of why we go all that way to fight asgore just to spare him, but hey, it's a video game
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:45
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:Is it murder and/or unjustified for Sans to kill the player in the genocide path? Elephant Parade fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Nov 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:48
|
|
|
I'm sad that Asgore's coolest, most memorable scene (The full version of his speech after you spare him, without Flowey interrupting) never gets seen by 99% of the playerbase because the internet told them the 'right' way to play.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:49
|
|
|
Also basically every monster except Papyrus and Alphys tries to kill you at some point, and has a pretty decent chance of succeeding. Also on the Neutral route unless the player has been exceedingly merciful, Toriel gets deposed for being too nice to humans. I think people are using Asgore a bit as a scapegoatdad here... Fangz fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Nov 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:50
|
|
|
Asgore's coolest scene was when he shattered the Mercy button, that was seriously the coolest moment in UT for me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:51
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:Child murder is never justified. I guess there's a chance not all the previous humans were children*, as previously discussed, but you don't mention that here. This is a weirdly absolutist position to take in an universe where a single human child can potentially commit genocide single-handedly. Elephant Parade posted:Okay, fine. That specific fictional example of child murder was justified because said child was (a) probably not actually a real child by then and (b) attempting to destroy the universe. What Asgore did wasn't. So in other words it can be okay, and we're actually just discussing the circumstances when it is. So given that fact, assuming that one of the humans actually tried to kill Asgore and take his soul, is he not allowed to defend himself, or what?
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:51
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Also basically every monster except Papyrus and Alphys tries to kill you at some point they're saying hello, not trying to harm you monsters communicate with magic and they're too dim to recognize the player as a human, so their greetings are potentially lethal exceptions are limited to the boss fights, Mad Dummy (who's just a dick) and Muffet (cuz a girl gotta get PAID)
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:54
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Asgore parks himself by the underground exit. Says "I cannot let you leave to tell the other humans about monsters, so to pass, you must defeat me". The human either is stuck and dies eventually of old age/starvation, or is forced to strike first, allowing Asgore to kill them in self defense. Rrumeerd erogsa, em taefed tsum uoy Dnuorgrednu eht tixe ot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:54
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:This is a weirdly absolutist position to take in an universe where a single human child can potentially commit genocide single-handedly. quote:So in other words it can be okay, and we're actually just discussing the circumstances when it is. So given that fact, assuming that one of the humans actually tried to kill Asgore and take his soul, is he not allowed to defend himself, or what?
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:55
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:Asgore's coolest scene was when he shattered the Mercy button, that was seriously the coolest moment in UT for me. Same. It was a shock, I actually went "oh poo poo" IRL and sat up straight because it really hammered home the point that this fight was different. Combined with Asgore's sprite hanging his head in perpetual shame, it might be my favorite final ("final") boss moment in any game. Certainly top 3 e: Zamujasa posted:Rrumeerd erogsa, em taefed tsum uoy Dnuorgrednu eht tixe ot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:55
|
|
|
Snake Maze posted:I'm sad that Asgore's coolest, most memorable scene (The full version of his speech after you spare him, without Flowey interrupting) never gets seen by 99% of the playerbase because the internet told them the 'right' way to play. Nobody told me the "right" way to do it and I never saw this scene; how do you encounter it? I've only ever seen Flowey or Toriel interrupt him and I've beaten the game like ten times.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:58
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Also basically every monster except Papyrus and Alphys tries to kill you at some point, and has a pretty decent chance of succeeding.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 00:58
|
|
|
No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:Nobody told me the "right" way to do it and I never saw this scene; how do you encounter it? I've only ever seen Flowey or Toriel interrupt him and I've beaten the game like ten times. if you SPARE Asgore, kill Flowey, and then fight Asgore and SPARE him again without fully resetting the game, Flowey's not around to interrupt his hopeful speech about taking the player home and rebuilding his family with them instead he trails off midway through after realizing how he's just fooling himself, asks you to take his soul and find a way to free his people from the surface, and promptly commits suicide Flowey still shatters the soul after just to spite you
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:01
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:On a non-merciful playthrough, it'll seem to the monster population as if a human has just wandered through the Underground, slaughtered some number of monsters (possibly notable ones!) unprovoked, and destroyed the six human souls for no fuckin' reason whatsoever. As True Pacifist shows, Toriel basically had to walk out of the Ruins and tell Asgore to stop to stop him. Letting a human walk alone out of the Ruins guarantees that either they die or Asgore dies. quote:Also, it's in part because of Asgore's rhetoric that the population is primed to hate humans in the first place. Asgore's rhetoric? Fangz fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Nov 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:02
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:That's true. Well, we don't know if he did or not. And given his personality, I find it very unlikely that he wouldn't have. Hell, he literally tires to put off fighting Frisk for as long as possible. As for the human's motivation, if your only way to leave a lovely-rear end cavern prison is to kill someone, it's not strange at all that someone might go for that. To expand a little, you said this: Elephant Parade posted:Or just wait for one to die of old age, then send someone out to request other dying folk donate their souls too But the real question is, would the humans have accepted that? To live out the rest of your life where the sun doesn't shine, completely cut off from everybody you know and love? That's plenty of motive for killing someone. Hell, it's even the exact same motive that most of the boss monsters have for trying to kill you. Elephant Parade posted:On a non-merciful playthrough, it'll seem to the monster population as if a human has just wandered through the Underground, slaughtered some number of monsters (possibly notable ones!) unprovoked, and destroyed the six human souls for no fuckin' reason whatsoever. Also, it's in part because of Asgore's rhetoric that the population is primed to hate humans in the first place. Buddy, they hate humans because the humans committed genocide and ethnic cleansing against them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:05
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:Buddy, they hate humans because the humans committed genocide and ethnic cleansing against them. And sealed them in the Underground. Also there was also that time where the beloved young prince of the monsters went to peacefully return the body of the human child, who the king had adopted and loved as his own child, and the humans responded by murdering him. I think it's pretty understandable for the monsters to assume humans are dangerous and untrustworthy, considering.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:10
|
|
|
Snake Maze posted:And sealed them in the Underground. Yeah, that's the ethnic cleansing part. Though when all is said and done the monsters actually seem far less hostile towards humanity than they would have a right to be.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:14
|
|
|
Son of Thunderbeast posted:Same. It was a shock, I actually went "oh poo poo" IRL and sat up straight because it really hammered home the point that this fight was different. Combined with Asgore's sprite hanging his head in perpetual shame, it might be my favorite final ("final") boss moment in any game. Certainly top 3 Also the music for the fight on top of all that is loving awesome because not only does it sound like a boss fight song, but it's also got this really really melancholy feeling to it to drive it home even further how much Asgore doesn't actually want to do this
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:15
|
|
|
Son of Thunderbeast posted:why didn't any flying or climbing monsters just leave through the hole all the kids were falling into Space Cadet Omoly posted:Same reason the non-flying monsters didn't just build a really big ladder or staircase to get out of that hole.....wait, why didn't they just build a really big ladder or staircase? As mentioned a couple times already, the barrier is one-way. It lets things in, but not out. Except, presumably, inanimate objects since the garbage river has to have an outlet somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:28
|
|
|
Macaluso posted:Also the music for the fight on top of all that is loving awesome because not only does it sound like a boss fight song, but it's also got this really really melancholy feeling to it to drive it home even further how much Asgore doesn't actually want to do this
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:30
|
|
|
Snake Maze posted:I'm sad that Asgore's coolest, most memorable scene (The full version of his speech after you spare him, without Flowey interrupting) never gets seen by 99% of the playerbase because the internet told them the 'right' way to play. Asgore's suicide, for those who want to watch it without replaying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31utu4F7W5s Also, Undyne's neutral path death, which you should also watch in case you've never seen it because it's one of the best scenes in the game: https://youtu.be/tpR_mvYUI8U?t=322 Edit: Oh! I just thought of some more good content most people probably miss! The extra dialogue you get with Flowy if you spare him, but go on to fight Asgore again multiple times without doing the Alphys/true lab sidequest first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLXByjVYpUg Space Cadet Omoly fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Nov 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 01:39
|
|
|
Somewhat related, I don't think it's actually possible to kill Mettaton during a neutral run (in fact, fighting him is one of the quicker ways to boost the ratings during said battle).
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 02:40
|
|
|
Scarodactyl posted:It's really nice to see a 'we' in this post. Really hoping to see your master's brush applied to this fresh canvas at some point. Haha thanks, it always makes me happy to hear I've somehow inspired peepz to do creative stuff!! I've definitely noticed your works in this thread, they're great edits especially in the spriting department! I've actually been busy as heck doin' stuff for Fangamer for a good while now, so haven't had the free time to make strange edits for DELTARUNE sadly heh. I'm really glad a number of folks jumped on the 'suzie's nostrils are eyes and she's a weird worm' concept though, that was one of my favorite gags I joked about pre-launch and was gonna be super sad if people didn't go for it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 02:42
|
|
|
Space Cadet Omoly posted:Asgore's suicide, for those who want to watch it without replaying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31utu4F7W5s Wow the Asgore and Undyne vids are real heavy
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 02:45
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:The sight of a disintegrating social contract fills you with NEOLIBERALISM Greetings. I am Hillary. "Hillary." The demon that comes when people call its name. It doesn't matter when. It doesn't matter where. Every four years, I will appear. And with your help... I CAN STILL WIN!
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 02:55
|
|
|
I didn’t know Asgore actually could do that. Holy crap  I knew about Undyne and that was a huge gut punch.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 02:56
|
|
|
Larryb posted:Somewhat related, I don't think it's actually possible to kill Mettaton during a neutral run (in fact, fighting him is one of the quicker ways to boost the ratings during said battle). It's possible to deplete his health before you max the ratings, but it's debatable whether he DIE-dies. Alphys just says she can repair him and then nervously sees you off. Killing all the bosses including Mettaton and absolutely nobody else (including Muffet, who isn't technically a boss) is the only way to get the best ending!!!
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 03:11
|
|
|
No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:It's possible to deplete his health before you max the ratings, but it's debatable whether he DIE-dies. Alphys just says she can repair him and then nervously sees you off. I'm pretty sure Alphys is just lying and Mettaton is dead for real.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 03:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 16:33 |
|
|
The death (?) of Mettaton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDaC1SNcpwESnake Maze posted:I'm pretty sure Alphys is just lying and Mettaton is dead for real. Yeah, that's the vibe I was getting too. That bot is dead, goodnight sweet robo prince.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2018 03:46
|
|