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Often Abbreviated posted:I usually have a lot of respect for Corbyn for being a straight talker but this is pretty embarrassing. "This deal is a disaster!" *lists a bunch of things he would have absofuckinglutely no ability to change in the PM's position* Brexit is powerful enough to turn even jam grandad into triangulating doublespeak
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Nov 27, 2018 00:49
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hobbesmaster posted:you know what would solve all those issues? but I want to eat chlorinated chicken
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Nov 27, 2018 00:50
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euphronius posted:how do you figure.
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Nov 27, 2018 00:50
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hobbesmaster posted:you know what would solve all those issues? If that's Corbyn's point then he should say it, not waffle about how there's a mythical great deal that would have pleased everyone and then we would have had crumpets and lashings of ginger beer if only May had looked for it.
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Nov 27, 2018 00:55
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Often Abbreviated posted:If that's Corbyn's point then he should say it, not waffle about how there's a mythical great deal that would have pleased everyone and then we would have had crumpets and lashings of ginger beer if only May had looked for it. There's a difference between promising those things, and throwing those promises made by the leave campaign back in the Tories' faces.
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Nov 27, 2018 01:08
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Cerv posted:you're not normally one for understatement I couldn't find a way to put it without an ableist slur so understatement had to do.
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Nov 27, 2018 01:27
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Often Abbreviated posted:If that's Corbyn's point then he should say it, not waffle about how there's a mythical great deal that would have pleased everyone and then we would have had crumpets and lashings of ginger beer if only May had looked for it. Why would he do that? He doesn't have to provide a solution or take a controversial position, he just has to say that he'd do it better than May. And May can't counter with anything but loving up and saying "nuh uh!"
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Nov 27, 2018 03:12
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Zeroisanumber posted:Why would he do that? He doesn't have to provide a solution or take a controversial position Those are the exact things he needs to be able to do to be capable of national leadership.
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Nov 27, 2018 09:36
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Often Abbreviated posted:Those are the exact things he needs to be able to do to be capable of national leadership. Arguing to remain at this point would allow the tories to blame labour when it all goes tits up, for being traitorous and not supporting mummy's brexit or whatever. They have to make the tories own all of this. Brexit is a hornet's nest, and labour sticking their collective dick in it helps no one but the tories. Standing by the side and pointing out how hosed up her deal and no deal are is pretty much the only thing he can do.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:07
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The "best deal" is what we have now, compared to the other two, which could theoretically be improved from within the EU as a member state. Corbyn's beaten off so much opposition from within and without but if he doesn't actually stand up now and flat out say we should reverse Article 50 / call another referendum what was the point of him being opposition leader?
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Nov 27, 2018 10:17
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Often Abbreviated posted:Those are the exact things he needs to be able to do to be capable of national leadership. Ah, you're new to politics then.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:26
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Captain Splendid posted:The "best deal" is what we have now, compared to the other two, which could theoretically be improved from within the EU as a member state. The point was to push a socialist agenda back to the forefront of British politics. Mind way back in the dark past of 2015? Nobody thought Leave would win the referendum. A strange but delightful time where I'd never had to hear the word Brexit every single time I put on the news. Halcyon days.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:30
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Captain Splendid posted:Corbyn's beaten off so much opposition from within and without but if he doesn't actually stand up now and flat out say we should reverse Article 50 / call another referendum what was the point of him being opposition leader? You'll find it was Owen Smith who did the beating off. Demanding a reversal of Article 50 or calling for another referendum - at this point - will tank labour while having no impact whatsoever on what the Tory government actually does. The headlines in the media and the attack lines from the tories would write themselves. Labour have already made it clear they won't vote for this deal or May's deal. What other substantial action can they possibly take? The tories have to take the full brunt of this disaster, up to and including (and this is looking more likely now) cancelling the whole thing. Even noted fish creature Michael Gove has been privately making GBS threads his pants at No Deal, as we now know. This isn't like debating nhs funding or train nationalisation, because brexit was decided by a dumbshit tory referendum. It requires different tactics from the opposition.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:34
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Captain Splendid posted:The "best deal" is what we have now, compared to the other two, which could theoretically be improved from within the EU as a member state. It may shock you to learn that quite a lot of people who vote for labour also voted leave
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Nov 27, 2018 10:34
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Jose posted:It may shock you to learn that quite a lot of people who vote for labour also voted leave 
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Nov 27, 2018 10:35
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Jose posted:It may shock you to learn that quite a lot of people who vote for labour also voted leave It doesn't in the slightest, but I wonder how many voters they'd gain for speaking out. Part of the problem with modern politics is the parties play only to what they think will get them votes (thanks Dave), rather than having ideas they believe in. I think noted political commentator Reginald D Hunter said that while he didn't like Thatcher at all, he respected that her policies were a result of her headstrong vision of being a oval office rather than to go after your vote.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:53
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Barry Foster posted:Arguing to remain at this point would allow the tories to blame labour when it all goes tits up, for being traitorous and not supporting mummy's brexit or whatever. They have to make the tories own all of this. This is just lack of imagination taking. Corbyn's options are not to either waffle uselessly or commit suicide. It's a Tory government. There's a million and one things he could be turning up the heat on, highlighting corruption, cruelty, misgovernment. He could wrap up his Brexit position by saying "it's bad, folks" then spend the next five minutes embarrassing May on things that matter instead of repeating YouTube level criticism of something he can't fix. If you've nothing to say on the current agenda then change the agenda. Probably he just needs it on record that he doesn't like the deal to give him cover for when he backs it, but this is some weak piss for him.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:53
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Captain Splendid posted:It doesn't in the slightest, but I wonder how many voters they'd gain for speaking out. Part of the problem with modern politics is the parties play only to what they think will get them votes (thanks Dave), rather than having ideas they believe in. Tory remain voters are never, ever going to vote for Jeremy Corbyn
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Nov 27, 2018 10:57
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Jose posted:Tory remain voters are never, ever going to vote for Jeremy Corbyn I know, but I didn't say that.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:04
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So who are these voters labour will gain by going pro remain right now?
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Nov 27, 2018 11:05
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Often Abbreviated posted:This is just lack of imagination taking. Corbyn's options are not to either waffle uselessly or commit suicide. It's a Tory government. There's a million and one things he could be turning up the heat on, highlighting corruption, cruelty, misgovernment. He could wrap up his Brexit position by saying "it's bad, folks" then spend the next five minutes embarrassing May on things that matter instead of repeating YouTube level criticism of something he can't fix. If you've nothing to say on the current agenda then change the agenda. He's literally done this his entire time as leader. That is exactly what he does, all the time. He isn't going to back this deal, that's insane. What are you talking about? I genuinely don't understand your point.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:08
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Jose posted:So who are these voters labour will gain by going pro remain right now? Bleating internet liberals, of course, who will single handedly win the day through powerful tweets
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Nov 27, 2018 11:09
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Yall really think the public'll hold the right people responsible ?
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Nov 27, 2018 11:21
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SMILLENNIALSMILLEN posted:Yall really think the public'll hold the right people responsible ? Probably not but that doesn't mean you should just softball it in there for them or the tories
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Nov 27, 2018 11:24
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Barry Foster posted:He's literally done this his entire time as leader. That is exactly what he does, all the time. He doesn't do it all the time, clearly. He's not doing it right now. And you think it's political suicide for him to talk about other options but it will be hunky dory to direct his party to vote against the deal, thus taking the blame when it falls to pieces with no recourse? If he's got nothing else to put on the table then he's probably preparing to accept it. He just wants it on the record that he would have gotten a much better deal if he'd had the chance, honest.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:25
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Often Abbreviated posted:He doesn't do it all the time, clearly. He's not doing it right now. He's not doing it as much at the moment because, if you haven't already noticed, some pretty momentous poo poo is going down at the moment. Voting for this deal would be electoral suicide, it would destroy Labour's base. No-one, on either side of the aisle, wants this lovely deal. It is universally disliked. And what evidence are you basing your otherwise conjectural assertion that Corbyn secretly wants this deal, apart from the whispering of your brain spiders?
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Nov 27, 2018 11:32
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Captain Splendid posted:It doesn't in the slightest, but I wonder how many voters they'd gain for speaking out. a ton in places labour doesn’t need, like London (where they’re winning) and Scotland (where they just split the snp vote and let more Tories in). def makes up for the votes they’d lose in northern marginals
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Nov 27, 2018 11:44
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Barry Foster posted:He's not doing it as much at the moment because, if you haven't already noticed, some pretty momentous poo poo is going down at the moment. Voting for the deal is unpopular because of various nationalist tub thumpers like Gibraltar. No one will care in six months time. Voting against the deal strands us in a geopolitical no man's land without a plan. I don't think Corbyn secretly likes the deal, that's something you've made up (why is it every time I talk to goons I have to keep reminding them what the actual topic is? Three words in and you all default to thinking you're debating the ghost of Christopher Hitchens instead of reading words on a screen), I think Corbyn is probably sane enough not to want to create chaos that he can't control, and will be blamed for.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:08
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I thought you wanted no deal brexit
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Nov 27, 2018 12:15
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Jose posted:I thought you wanted no deal brexit You've thought a lot of things about me so far Jose, to my knowledge you've yet to have been right about any of them. "I KNOW UR A KNOBHEAD, MATE" Yeah yeah gently caress off.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:18
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Jose posted:So who are these voters labour will gain by going pro remain right now? I guess that’s the key difference here. People who see Brexit as an opportunity to boost Labour’s chances of forming a government, regardless of the short and long term cost. And those who see the consequences as being too grave to allow equivocation If labour end up as bystanders as a no deal Brexit car crash unfolds before them, that would be unforgivable.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:19
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CoolCab posted:a ton in places labour doesn’t need, like London (where they’re winning) and Scotland (where they just split the snp vote and let more Tories in). def makes up for the votes they’d lose in northern marginals Saving this one for 2022 or whenever the election happens
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Nov 27, 2018 12:25
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Obliterati posted:Saving this one for 2022 or whenever the election happens it’s the grim arithmetic that has brought us this far
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Nov 27, 2018 12:48
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https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1067383297767026688
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Nov 27, 2018 12:51
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awful
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Nov 27, 2018 13:02
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lol we're doomed https://twitter.com/MiriamElder/status/1067844498171092992
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Nov 28, 2018 20:39
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Jose posted:lol we're doomed Lol
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Nov 28, 2018 20:42
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If they debate he should just call her the leader of a party of murderers re Grenfell and all the other countless lives lost and destroyed as a result of unrepentant austerity policies that in the end did nothing helpful for the economy and just funneled money to the already wealthy.
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Nov 28, 2018 21:44
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COMRADES posted:If they debate he should just call her the leader of a party of murderers re Grenfell and all the other countless lives lost and destroyed as a result of unrepentant austerity policies that in the end did nothing helpful for the economy and just funneled money to the already wealthy. thats the problem with the polite side of the direction labour is taking under corbyn, i like the rest of it ("strategic ambiguity" aside) but its a strange message to finally be honest about "okay this party is just rigging and wrecking the economy and killing people because they're corrupt and evil" but then decide to be polite about it id prefer bloody shirt stuff 24/7 honestly
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Nov 28, 2018 21:52
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Jose posted:lol we're doomed 
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Nov 28, 2018 21:57
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