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Roland Jones posted:I actually don't know who Sam Haight is. I recognize the name from its use in this thread, but I don't really know anything about the character or the plots/games he was in and am curious. Is this one of those fascinatingly horrible stories, or is it something I should count myself fortunate to be ignorant of? 
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Nov 27, 2018 09:02
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I remember the BSD named after a fart in Chaos Factor.
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Nov 27, 2018 09:07
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Mr. Maltose posted:Sam Haight is an ashtray that used to be a werewolf-mage-vampire and, to be honest, I’m not sure if he was ever earnestly portrayed or if he was a joke about being a multisplat badass from the jump. Haight started out very earnestly portrayed as a Werewolf-centric antagonist, and not all that badly either. From there his arc within the line got progressively more and more ridiculous until he was eventually soulforged into an ashtray, presumably by a writer who had by that point found the character as insufferable as a lot of fans did. When it comes to the old World of Darkness I find it's generally better not to attribute to cunning satire what can be equally explained by someone going "man I just had the coolest idea you guys."
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Nov 27, 2018 09:40
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Mr. Maltose posted:Sam Haight is an ashtray that used to be a werewolf-mage-vampire and, to be honest, I’m not sure if he was ever earnestly portrayed or if he was a joke about being a multisplat badass from the jump. Kai Tave posted:Haight started out very earnestly portrayed as a Werewolf-centric antagonist, and not all that badly either. From there his arc within the line got progressively more and more ridiculous until he was eventually soulforged into an ashtray, presumably by a writer who had by that point found the character as insufferable as a lot of fans did. When it comes to the old World of Darkness I find it's generally better not to attribute to cunning satire what can be equally explained by someone going "man I just had the coolest idea you guys." That is amazing, and awful. Thank you for enlightening(?) me.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:02
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So, I just did my first installment of the 'potential kinfolk' thing, using the presumption that a kinfolkxhuman pairing has 50/50 odds of passing on kinfolk status, which is the best case scenario. With no infusions of Garou blood (unlikely, really) the royal line of Hengist (who was Get) of Kent had only a .195% chance of remaining viable kinfolk by the time it lost power. The basic 50/50 odds mean that it flows 50/25/12.5/6.25/3.125/1.5/.78 etc, while the odds of a spontaneous Garou from an untended hypothetical line like that is 0%. If they marry other kinfolk it rises up to 1% of breedings. What this means is that there's a minimum of a .195% chance that Hengist alone creates 40 new kinfolk historical figures. This is perhaps the least interesting of the potential kinfolk lines, as it contains no known external infusions, unlike the royal lines of Russia where the maths should get very interesting. EDIT: Continuing in this vein, Erik the Red's daughter picking up a sword and fending off the skraelings is potentially not the actions of a brave norsewoman, but rather of a Get or their kinfolk. 50% odds. Loomer fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 10:06
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I always thought Kinfolk decayed more slowly than that. Like it wasn't literally just a gene, or if you want to get all Glass Walker about it, that living a Gaia-compatible lifestyle activated the epigenetic triggers that made it more likely to pop off Kinfolk babbies even if no Garou got their Bone Of course the difference might be more "if you live near a caern you will probably catch some spirit benefits from the Theurges and so on."
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Nov 27, 2018 10:49
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It's definitely ambiguous. I'm going off the known data points that a Kinfolk/Kinfolk pairing produces 1% odds of a Garou and 49.5% odds of human/kinfolk, while Garou/Kinfolk produces 10%G/90%K, and Garou/Human can only produce 50%H/50%K (or lupus, rather than human, where appropriate) rather than anything concrete on kinfolk/human. At the same time, Gaia can pop a little Garou in anyone she chooses, so you can have totally new Garou lineages spawn out of nowhere. I think it's one of those cases where they wrote down some numbers, went 'good enough' and then wound up with them being repeated over and over and reinforced until it moved from 'write down something to satisfy the nerds' and into an actual thing. I probably wouldn't write it up with specific chances myself if I were doing it, but that they have lets me crack open the history books and with the presumption that supposed descent isn't hiding adultery see the odds for the historic figures and their progeny. There are a couple of additional complications I haven't cracked into yet, which is Pure Breed and W20 changing up the GH breeding ratios. Every point of a kinfolk's PB increases their odds of a garou by 5% in KG pairings, and 1% in KK (presumably with a corresponding rise in kinfolk odds as well), but PB is hard to account for. W20 corrects the situation somewhat by making GH breedings primarily produce K rather than 50/50 H/K odds, but keeps the 49.5/49.5 H/K odds of KK matings, but it is also internally inconsistent (simultaneously stating that GH pairings almost always produce kinfolk and that they have the same odds as GK pairings) while also prohibiting spontaneous Garou generation which leads me to default back to the Revised PGttG standard.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:08
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Roland Jones posted:That is amazing, and awful. Thank you for enlightening(?) me. A Somewhat Comprehensive History of Samuel Haight Even in his first appearance in Valkenburg Foundation, Haight was already edging into "WTF crossover!?!" territory, and it quickly spiraled out of control from there. He resented being just some kinfolk, and he tried to prove himself in various (mortal) ways that didn't pan out. Eventually he was like "gently caress all ya'll, I'm gonna make myself a werewolf" and traveled the world seeking magical knowledge. This is how he came to find and kill a Tremere and steal his grimoires. Which are apparently enough to teach you some blood magic. So even "base-line" Haight has some powerful evil Fetishes and loving vampire Thaumaturgy. At the end of his first appearance he successfully uses lupus garou pelts in a ritual to become a werewolf and then…he auto-escapes. This dude who should absolutely be a crazy boss fight uses his super one-of-a-kind fetish to escape, and even if the PC group has the wherewithal to follow him, he escapes even harder. Unfortunately, his Exit 2: Umbra Boogaloo drives him crazy (crazier?) and traps him in some ancient demon-prison. Fortunately, per Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat, some crazy vampires just so happen to be trying to summon that demon. Things go awry, but this allows Haight to escape. Then he shows up in Rage Across the Amazon, where he has already acquired beforehand and off-screen a memory-stealing magical sword. This is because your PCs are supposed to once again play catch-up as he seeks to slay El Dorado, who it turns out is a mage living in "the Dorado Realm" which is exactly like the legend of El Dorado but not also a person. Haight wants to learn Sphere magic. Anyway, as before, your PCs can beat him to Dorado or not, it doesn't matter because this is really the story of how badass Haight is and he struggles with Dorado for a few moments before stabbing him in the heart the end. But wait! Dorado's death weakens the Realm and Wyld spirits are here to gently caress this poo poo up, for some reason. Also the sword isn't wicked awesome enough to contain Dorado's rank coolness, so it explodes. Yet Haight survives: haha gently caress you posted:There is absolutely no chance that the pack could locate him, even if they tried. So Haight went to all this trouble to learn Sphere magick and his cool magic sword exploded because it wasn't good enough! Except wait: no really gently caress you posted:but the fetish has granted Samuel Haight rudimentary knowledge in several Spheres of Power. Haight now understands the ways of the mages and the principles involved in using magick. What he will do with this knowledge remains to be seen in his next adventure… We're not done yet because he then shows up in Book of Chantries. You see he only has rudimentary knowledge of the Spheres, and he wants more. So he tries to get in good with a chantry detailed in the book, but everyone's like "holy poo poo no get out of here" and so he and his lackey Skin-Dancers (kinfolk turned into werewolves like him, he's trying to start his own tribe) set about slaying. He gets to the World Tree at the center of the chantry and rips it apart, giving him infinite Quintessence for the scene. And, I guess, more knowledge. (!?!?) Finally, he'll be able to surpass his totally rudimentary and weak understanding of the Spheres, which I forgot to say earlier are Arete 4, Correspondence 3, Entropy 3, Forces 3, Life 2, Matter 3, Prime 2, Spirit 4, and they'll stay that way from here on out. What a poo-head beginner's understanding of Sphere magick! Anyway that piece he tore off the World Tree is now a cool artifact staff that gives him crazy countermagic powers and an enormous amount of Quintessence. Unfortunately he doesn't realize that the staff is unstable, and it will be his undoing. He shows up in New Orleans by Night to be a source of information as a side-part of the story where the summary says "if the players can convince him not to become a vampire he gives them the information they want" but then in the actual detailed section that gives his crazy stats and everything you just have to emo-ly answer his questions about ~the eternal night~ and he says "gently caress being a vampire. Here's the info you wanted. I'm out!" Whatever. Finally, he is the centerpiece antagonist of an entire book: The Chaos Factor. He's going to find and devour an antediluvian in Mexico! Like in the adventure featuring him in Rage Across the Amazon, ultimately the PCs get to play audience to the same basic climax no matter what they do. Haight is a dumbass and doesn't know the difference between a methuselah and an antediluvian, but it's still pretty baller that he found Shaitan, which might be the first Ba'ali depending on how you take the bloodline's backstory. No matter what, Shaitan gets the gently caress out of there, though you are given the chance to let some of your PCs get pasted by him if they want to try it. Finally, whether he's loving with Shaitan or the PCs, Haight overuses his World Tree staff and it explodes spectacularly, killing him (and potentially most/all of the PCs!). But wait! There's more! In Wraith's Book of Legions there's an off-hand mention that he got turned into an ashtray because the soulforgers like to poo poo on people who get too big for their britches. And then, finally-finally-for real, the ashtray is swept into Oblivion by the Final Maelstrom, hitting a mage who happens to be in the Underworld during the novel Judgement Day. He worked for/with, and betrayed, Pentex and the Black Spiral Dancers at various points in all this. Oh, and he gave his DNA to an evil corporation to make a clone of himself. PS All the specific books I mentioned above came out in 1993-1994, except for Book of Legions (1998) and Judgment Day (2004). So even though his first appearance was honestly tame and actually a little compelling and a good story-hook for a normal WtA game, it seems like his entire horeshit "arc" was planned from the very beginning. I love it, and I hate it, but I love it, too. According to Phil Brucato in an interview, Haight was meant to be a joke the entire time. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 11:25
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can such a person really be said to be too big for their britches perhaps their britches were not big enough Tollymain fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 11:35
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That Old Tree posted:PS All the specific books I mentioned above came out in 1993-1994, except for Book of Legions (1998) and Judgment Day (2004). So even though his first appearance was honestly tame and actually a little compelling and a good story-hook for a normal WtA game, it seems like his entire horeshit "arc" was planned from the very beginning. I love it, and I hate it, but I love it, too. According to Phil Brucato in an interview, Haight was meant to be a joke the entire time. I wouldn't trust Phil Brucato to tell me what color the sky is, but I do agree with you that Haight's original conception as a bitter kinfolk turned self-made werewolf and werewolf-serial-killer is a pretty decent and compelling hook, but like you said, everything else about him quickly spiraled into absurdity. The fact that he came to be in the middle of the "don't ever let players kill the NPCs no matter what" trend certainly didn't help matters.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:52
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gently caress me why is the Rurik descent lineage so loving long. I'm at like 100 entries and I've barely even looked at Russia proper.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:53
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Kai Tave posted:I wouldn't trust Phil Brucato to tell me what color the sky is, but I do agree with you that Haight's original conception as a bitter kinfolk turned self-made werewolf and werewolf-serial-killer is a pretty decent and compelling hook, but like you said, everything else about him quickly spiraled into absurdity. The fact that he came to be in the middle of the "don't ever let players kill the NPCs no matter what" trend certainly didn't help matters. I mean, one of the books he appears in has a straight ripoff of Lo Pan from Big Trouble in it. It's hard to suss out what, exactly, is supposed to be so exceptionally unserious about Haight. Edit: And, frankly, taking "haha he's just a joke" guy and making him the (untouchable) centerpiece of multiple whole book chapters as well as one entire book is an enormous waste of everyone's time and energy. I'd rather he just be a bad "yeah 90's!" idea instead of some over elaborate, flaccid joke. Like, there's always been this tension between the gravity of a true cultural phenomenon, and not taking it too seriously. But devoting hundreds of thousands of words to this wankfest of a character? That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 11:58
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That Old Tree posted:I mean, one of the books he appears in has a straight ripoff of Lo Pan from Big Trouble in it. It's hard to suss out what, exactly, is supposed to be so exceptionally unserious about Haight. Something simultaneously being goofy and something also being intended as a thing you're supposed to take very seriously kind of describes like 90% of the old World of Darkness, is the thing, so yeah it's not always easy to discern which is which at any given moment.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:02
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Kai Tave posted:I wouldn't trust Phil Brucato to tell me what color the sky is, but I do agree with you that Haight's original conception as a bitter kinfolk turned self-made werewolf and werewolf-serial-killer is a pretty decent and compelling hook, but like you said, everything else about him quickly spiraled into absurdity. The fact that he came to be in the middle of the "don't ever let players kill the NPCs no matter what" trend certainly didn't help matters. I think he also suffered from the assumption that any plot-significant NPC antagonist must also be a boss fight worthy of taking on the whole party at once. Which is... not really a thing. Like, the horror of Sam Haight is that a) he's killing the people you care about, b) he's (presumably) very careful and devious and hard to actually track down, and c) even after you find him and gut him, he's a constant reminder that basically any Kin could go down the same dark road. Actually killing him once you track him down almost should be an anticlimax, because it underscores the pointless atrocity of everything he's done and everything he represents. Like, imagine how different the end of Silence of the Lambs would have been if, once the FBI showed up to arrest Buffalo Bill, he turned out to be some badass ninja/Navy SEAL and had a 15-minute gun-fu battle with the entire Hostage Rescue Team? All Sam Haight needed was a book with a single, deeply hosed-up rite and the ability to get individual Garou isolated and to let their guard down around him. Instead he got turned into a joke and became his own punchline.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:08
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Had anyone read that W20 adventure where a disciple of Haight tries to follow in his footsteps? Is it any good?
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Nov 27, 2018 12:22
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If I ever find the bastard who decided to make Rurik a Get kinfolk I will loving murder them. There's so many loving descendants. EDIT: Case in point. The current Grand Duke of Russia has a 0.00000002% chance of having inherited no-infusions Kinfolk blood. Loomer fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 12:54
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GimpInBlack posted:I think he also suffered from the assumption that any plot-significant NPC antagonist must also be a boss fight worthy of taking on the whole party at once. Which is... not really a thing. Like, the horror of Sam Haight is that a) he's killing the people you care about, b) he's (presumably) very careful and devious and hard to actually track down, and c) even after you find him and gut him, he's a constant reminder that basically any Kin could go down the same dark road. Actually killing him once you track him down almost should be an anticlimax, because it underscores the pointless atrocity of everything he's done and everything he represents. Like, imagine how different the end of Silence of the Lambs would have been if, once the FBI showed up to arrest Buffalo Bill, he turned out to be some badass ninja/Navy SEAL and had a 15-minute gun-fu battle with the entire Hostage Rescue Team? What's funny is how WW would sometimes think they needed to warn you about how unspeakably BA a character was and how the ST really needs to think about having them fight this NPC and maybe they secretly hate the players if they do. This being the ST system, the players could fall backwards into winning with their eyes closed sometimes. I also remember they put the same 'warning label' on the wraith of Blackbeard in the Haunts book. It was like they thought they ripped Pandora's box in half by giving somebody 5 Dex and 5 Melee.
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Nov 27, 2018 14:08
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Dawgstar posted:What's funny is how WW would sometimes think they needed to warn you about how unspeakably BA a character was and how the ST really needs to think about having them fight this NPC and maybe they secretly hate the players if they do. This being the ST system, the players could fall backwards into winning with their eyes closed sometimes. I also remember they put the same 'warning label' on the wraith of Blackbeard in the Haunts book. It was like they thought they ripped Pandora's box in half by giving somebody 5 Dex and 5 Melee. In a similar, real-world example, back when Chronicles of Darkness was still the new World of Darkness, the tradition became that the last page of a new corebook would be the ad for/reveal of whatever the next game line was going to be. For the reveal of Hunter: The Vigil, they decided to be cute and put a word search puzzle in the back of Changeling: The Lost. When the puzzle was completely solved, the unused letters spelled out "The Hunters Arrive Two Thousand Eight." They figured it would take people a week or two to figure it out. Instead, due to advance copies of Changeling being available at a con, the puzzle was solved and leaked to the internet before Changeling was even released.
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Nov 27, 2018 14:14
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Dawgstar posted:What's funny is how WW would sometimes think they needed to warn you about how unspeakably BA a character was and how the ST really needs to think about having them fight this NPC and maybe they secretly hate the players if they do. This being the ST system, the players could fall backwards into winning with their eyes closed sometimes. I also remember they put the same 'warning label' on the wraith of Blackbeard in the Haunts book. It was like they thought they ripped Pandora's box in half by giving somebody 5 Dex and 5 Melee. Our group dusted Helena, one of the methuselahs in Chicago, semi-accidentally, despite being neonates. All thanks to the wonky dice system, particularly the 1s and 10s rules. Especially before the 1s detract successes bit was removed, there was a not unreasonable chance of killing almost *anything* in a fight, if the dice got a little off average.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:12
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1s subtracting successes produced some truly stupid statistics.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:13
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That Old Tree posted:I mean, one of the books he appears in has a straight ripoff of Lo Pan from Big Trouble in it. It's hard to suss out what, exactly, is supposed to be so exceptionally unserious about Haight.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:28
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Yawgmoth posted:You were not put upon this earth in order to "suss it out", Mr. Tree. Just think if they'd ran with the Lo Pan expy instead of Voormas as the line's big villain. Both came from the same book.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:34
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That Old Tree posted:A Somewhat Comprehensive History of Samuel Haight Didn't the world tree talisman absorb paradox, which made it incredibly broken in terms of vulgar sphere magic casting? If I'm remembering Chaos Factor correctly, the talisman gets broken at the climax, from misuse or whatever, and explodes like a hydrogen bomb due to all the paradox it absorbed. Chaos Factor is probably one of the most covertly racist books because Mexico City is depicted as the center of evil in the universe. There's a hive, which has a Caul in it that the BSD's just use as a slipping slid because it doesn't effect them, and it's the capital of the Sabbat. It's practically Mordor and right outside of it is the tomb of a diabolist methuselah. Mexico City by Night kind of downplays things a bit, which is saying a lot, but Mexico City is depicted as a literal hell hole.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:49
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Someone really needs to give the aristocracy some condoms. Even in the modern day they keep pumping out tons of kids.
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Nov 27, 2018 16:00
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Preview: Entitlements from the upcoming Oak, Ash and Thorn. Entitlements appear to be unique pacts made with a Title, giving you a unique power or set of powers in exchange for a unique set of responsibilities. It involves heraldry and earning the title from its current incumbent, or the Wyrd. This has a unique effect with the Gentry, too: they will assume anyone that holds a Title is the same person as whoever held it before. Hobs may or may not agree with this. It may also affect mortals in some circumstances.
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Nov 27, 2018 16:03
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That Old Tree posted:Had anyone read that W20 adventure where a disciple of Haight tries to follow in his footsteps? Is it any good? I have it and i've read it, but it was a while ago (and I can't remember the name of the book so I can't tell if I have the PDF on this computer or not) IIRC it was Haight's lieutennant who was trying to ressurect him, and he succeeds (after a fashion) by grafting a piece of Haight's skin onto himself and becoming a reincarnation of Haight that's 100% Werewolf with no other poo poo mixed in, But that's only if the party doesn't stop him before he pulls off his ritual (and I think that the party is MEANT to stop him, in bold defiance of everything else Haight related)
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Nov 27, 2018 16:03
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Mors Rattus posted:Preview: Entitlements from the upcoming Oak, Ash and Thorn. Those look like they'll be a blast. I never cared for 1e's Entitlements as they just felt tacked onto games a bit too much (and/or just too much like a legacy without consistent perks). This is a great and personal way to do it instead.
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Nov 27, 2018 16:13
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Mors Rattus posted:Preview: Entitlements from the upcoming Oak, Ash and Thorn. So what happens if you got a Title away from one of the Fae?
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Nov 27, 2018 16:17
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xanthan posted:So what happens if you got a Title away from one of the Fae? I'm guessing that's one of the things that might be an Eldritch Title, discussed at the bottom, and come with Interesting And Terrible Risks.
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Nov 27, 2018 16:22
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xanthan posted:So what happens if you got a Title away from one of the Fae? 
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Nov 27, 2018 16:35
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1e Entitlements were hilariously unwilling to give you anything good. I think one was literally just a specialty.
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Nov 27, 2018 16:46
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They were also groups, whereas these Entitlements are almost entirely singular entities, with group ones ('legion entitlements') being extremely rare and coveted.
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Nov 27, 2018 17:06
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For the sake of my sanity I'm cutting off the hypothetical kinfolk lists at 1% or lower cumulative chance. That gets hit around 7 generations from the last known garou or kinfolk ancestor. You can actually see the implosion of child mortality rates incredibly clearly if you pick a solid noble line and just look at everyone's children. Lots of people having lots of kids, but when you hit around 1900, suddenly those kids are all surviving for a change and next thing you know you've spent a goddamn hour chasing down the names of infant members of the royal family of goddamn Luxembourg because there's a 0.000000000001% chance they could retain Kinfolk status.
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Nov 27, 2018 17:13
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the garou were real title-chasers, huh
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Nov 27, 2018 17:19
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Kurieg posted:I have it and i've read it, but it was a while ago (and I can't remember the name of the book so I can't tell if I have the PDF on this computer or not) There was also the subplot of Tick trying to usurp Minotaur as the totem of the Skindancers.
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Nov 27, 2018 18:45
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Mors Rattus posted:the garou were real title-chasers, huh It's well-known among hunters that a werewolf cannot sleep unless her hands are cupping the buttocks of a local duchess, or at least an Hon..
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Nov 27, 2018 19:41
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Mors Rattus posted:the garou were real title-chasers, huh Chronicle concept for a pack of werewolves desperately trying to elbow their kinfolk into the Hapsburg incest thunderdome to covertly turn the most ridiculously breeding-obsessed royal line of Europe for centuries into an infinite werewolf factory.
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Nov 27, 2018 20:31
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Daeren posted:Chronicle concept for a pack of werewolves desperately trying to elbow their kinfolk into the Hapsburg incest thunderdome to covertly turn the most ridiculously breeding-obsessed royal line of Europe for centuries into an infinite werewolf factory. I'm fairly certain you could do this with nWoD with a pack of mixed Iron Masters and Ivory Claws, at that.
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Nov 27, 2018 20:34
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Mors Rattus posted:I'm fairly certain you could do this with nWoD with a pack of mixed Iron Masters and Ivory Claws, at that. "Just because the family tree keeps on looping in on itself does not mean that it is 'neat and tidy' ivory claw joe."
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Nov 27, 2018 20:37
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Kurieg posted:I have it and i've read it, but it was a while ago (and I can't remember the name of the book so I can't tell if I have the PDF on this computer or not) So basically they lifted a chunk of the plot of Metal Gear Solid 4, and this lieutenant is Liquid Ocelot except he's doing it deliberately? And it's an actual reincarnation-possession-something-thingy. Ye hell.
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Nov 27, 2018 20:40
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