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OwlFancier posted:Or if you are going to have granular combat it makes infinitely more sense to integrate it into the fleet combat or the economy, because those are the two developed areas of the game. Hence the wisdom of tying ground combat into fleet strategy decisions and economic development directly. You can not have a well functioning combat system that is wholly relegated to what happens after you conquer a planet, a thing that is entirely decided by fleet combat and does not integrate into the rest of the game. ED: some games built entirely out of minigames like Star Ruler 2 can be quite good, but it requires deliberate structuring towards that. It doesn't fit Stellaris' post-release sense of direction.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 21:59 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:18 |
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A lot of 4x games has "mini games" like tactical space and ground combat that worked great, but those were turn based games so it was never an issue to pause and focus on something else entirely. Stellaris being real time really limits this.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:10 |
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Baronjutter posted:In all my games the best troops I could build are droid armies, an early game tech that never gets better throughout the entire game. Everyone else seems to have xeno's and gene troops, specially fallen empires. They also love to land their 20 gene troop assault army on their planet making it nearly impossible to take. The last time I was fighting a fallen empire I had about 200k worth of ships bombard for years making almost no dent, and eventually had to send about 300+ droids to take the drat planet. Wave after wave of carefully timed droid armies. So uh, you're doing it wrong? There is no world in which your early game robot tech is the best armies that you can get. If you're a machine intelligence, you can get a better version (1.5x dmg, 2x morale dmg, over 2x the hp) along with a giant robot thing later. If you're just having normal robot techs, you can get improved robots after you get synths (double dmgs, slight health increase) and still qualify for xenomorphs. The ascension perk armies are better than basic robots. Hell if your strategy is going to be "they've got to run out of bullets sometime" you might as well use clone armies: you can make 3 clone armies for every basic robot army (in the same time for the same cost/upkeep). Unless you can't have organics around at all, you've always got the choice to research xenomorphs, and find some race of dudes to turn into very strong ground pounders for your empire. If you can't have organics at all (ie you're playing a machine intelligence) your upgraded ground army option is on-par with xenos (less dmg, more health) but you can also get giant robots. You can also consider having a military academy/war factory at where you're building your troops: they start with 100 experience, enough to get +10% dmg +10% morale. The real tragedy is that the ascension perk ground troops are sort of trash compared to xenos. The 'downside' to xenos is their giant collateral damage stat, but that really isn't impactful compared to getting faster, cheaper, stronger units. They should have some sort of diplomacy hit (based on their descriptions, most races shouldn't be happy that you're sending poo poo like that at anyone), and some sort of additional upkeep (maybe food). I haven't tried it, but if your enemies are making fortresses that feel uncrackable, how about getting the perk that lets you steal pops, and just steal all the people off the planet? If there aren't pops they should lose control of it, making armies they have on the planet a moot point.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:11 |
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Bring back tiles but just for land invasions. Create different doctrines you can assign to the army to determine the pattern of landings and expansion. Like a mini-risk game that the AI plays out for you.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:15 |
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In my experience the big beefy armies like mega-warforms are best because they end up dying far less often thanks to their fat HP pool so I don't have to rebuild and micro the replacements back to the front lines, and an offensive doesn't stall out waiting for the reinforcement.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:16 |
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ZypherIM posted:and some sort of additional upkeep (maybe food).
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:21 |
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ZypherIM posted:So uh, you're doing it wrong? There is no world in which your early game robot tech is the best armies that you can get. If you're a machine intelligence, you can get a better version (1.5x dmg, 2x morale dmg, over 2x the hp) along with a giant robot thing later. If you're just having normal robot techs, you can get improved robots after you get synths (double dmgs, slight health increase) and still qualify for xenomorphs. The ascension perk armies are better than basic robots. Hell if your strategy is going to be "they've got to run out of bullets sometime" you might as well use clone armies: you can make 3 clone armies for every basic robot army (in the same time for the same cost/upkeep). I don't know, in all my last games I'd always top out on droid armies well into the end game. Don't you need a special perk for xeno and gene troops? I remember I used to be able to build xeno armies as cyborgs, but none of my games over the last couple months ever had the tech unlock for me. I'd be well into 100% repeatable tech and just be hoping for those odd +5% army health repeats.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:22 |
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No, all you need is the Uplift tech as a prerequisite, and to not be a machine intelligence.Aethernet posted:Unless, of course, you're fighting robots, or anyone who's put a robot on a fortress. Oh right, forgot about the robots. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Nov 28, 2018 |
# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:23 |
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Trabisnikof posted:Bring back tiles but just for land invasions. Create different doctrines you can assign to the army to determine the pattern of landings and expansion. Like a mini-risk game that the AI plays out for you. This but unironically. HoI4 already has troops interacting with each other based on terrain, troop quality, leadership, learned tactics and RNG all controlled by AI out of the players control so it works. It's also something that is mechanically essentially an more refined form of MoO3 combat - it's from a 4x space game anyway! Baronjutter posted:I don't know, in all my last games I'd always top out on droid armies well into the end game. Don't you need a special perk for xeno and gene troops? I remember I used to be able to build xeno armies as cyborgs, but none of my games over the last couple months ever had the tech unlock for me. I'd be well into 100% repeatable tech and just be hoping for those odd +5% army health repeats. Apparently you need whatever the primitives uplifting technology is called as a prerequisite (which implies the Fallen Empires have all been uplifiting in the past, because they're all Xeno users) for Xenomorph armies.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:24 |
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isndl posted:In my experience the big beefy armies like mega-warforms are best because they end up dying far less often thanks to their fat HP pool so I don't have to rebuild and micro the replacements back to the front lines, and an offensive doesn't stall out waiting for the reinforcement. Warforms have the best stats of any buildable army. The downside is they take a year or so to build and cost about as much as a cruiser. Still worth it IMO, and at some point they are the only thing in my army once the others attrition off.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 22:52 |
Zurai posted:You can poo poo on it all you like, but it was an example of something which was supposed to not exist. I didn't say the mod did a good job of making ground combat more interesting (the mod had nothing to do with ground combat), it was just an example of the fact that it is possible with the current version of the game to make ground combat more complex than just "throw a stack of basic assault armies at it". Not much more, but still more. Complex!=better, what you described sounds significantly worse than vanilla. I think someone already addressed the fleet thing. ChickenWing posted:"interacting with the game" == "tedious micro" continues to be the worst take. I am also in favor of that. I'm not in favor of "reducing the amount you actually get to engage with the game", I just don't think engaging with the game should be boring. Clicking on a planet, clicking an army ten times to queue ten builds, then repeating with five other planets is tedious. So is moving those 5 stacks together to assault the planet. With better armies building 10/planet also takes ten years, so if you want to be done quicker than that you get to find more planets to click the army button on. This is completely different than navies, where you actually need to think about what you're doing unless you completely outclass the enemy. Though the fleet manager still doesn't have shift or ctrl clicks as far as I know, which is certainly an issue. Unless you also think clicking the "increase amount of corvettes in template" a hundred times isn't tedious, I suppose. I've personally had my wrist get tired when playing Stellaris from clicking the same goddamn button repeatedly dozens of times, then repeating that soon after, so I really can't agree with your characterization of that as "interacting with the game". I learnt how to make an autohotkey script to left click ten times in a row so I'd stress my wrist less while playing Stellaris. I think it's concerning that I found that worthwhile, and I think that the game would benefit from ground combat involving less mindless clicking, just as removing tiles is a massive improvement.
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# ? Nov 28, 2018 23:47 |
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The best ground combat in any 4x game was MOOII and I will fight any of you to the death to defend it.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 00:07 |
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Pacho posted:Planetary invasion could be incredibly fun if every planet is a fully rendered Clausewitz map with 3000+ provinces, each with their own leaders, buildings and economy and you have to build buildings indvidually in each and pops and provincinal decisions and and aand
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 00:09 |
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quote:The best ground combat in any 4x game was MOOII and I will fight any of you to the death to defend it. Of course, that was also a game where if you chose, you could bypass the ground game outright(Telepathy). And the problems there have also come here. Transport ships that needed building, traits to improve warfare, and the fiddyness of them.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 00:10 |
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dylguy90 posted:The best ground combat in any 4x game was MOOII and I will fight any of you to the death to defend it. MoO3s ground combat and MoO1s ground combat were both better.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 00:15 |
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How dare you.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 00:32 |
Ham Sandwiches posted:I don't get what the relationship between ground combat and space combat is supposed to be anyway. Space fleets are important it's how you control space, engage enemy fleets, destroy transports, deal with menaces and pirates, all that jazz. a bastion planet in the right place can be a huge pain in the rear end, particularly early on when you're not rich enough to just endlessly produce armies until you win. it can reduce losses in war if located at a chokepoint - even if the enemy has space superiority, if the planet helps you wait out the peace timer, you'll lose fewer systems. it also gives you a chance to produce more ships and regroup to maybe reclaim space superiority. ground combat would be a much bigger part of the game if the AI wasn't so bad at it even in its current implementation, mechanically it is quite important between two equal opponents but the AI's incompetence makes it seem less important than it is
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 00:32 |
I don't know if this was proposed, but why not have a component chunk for ships that lets you install a troop transport or something? Have it be available for all ship classes, although making a corvette-scale troop carrier means it will be unarmed (but your 4 troop corvettes can be screened by the 12 laser corvettes). Upgrades would work something like fighter/bombers do now, with some of the super-powered armies needing larger ships to carry them; I could see that you might need a destroyer to carry Godzilla to an alien planet. Or three corvettes working in tandem... Anyway if you don't need to invade anyone you can just refit the ships to have guns instead. Or if this is also reworking carrier aviation, your hangar-and-nothing-else corvettes have the "Escort Carrier" hull for their single interior module. e: For extra bonus, a troop carrier ship can storm and board alien ships, with a tiny possibility of seizing the odd ship intact and a much larger chance of causing interior damage and perhaps increasing the value/odds of debris appearing, representing ships that your space marines hosed up and left adrift and intact-ish rather than having been blasted into vapor There might also be a tech for raider troops, allowing you to scrape off some alloys etc. from enemy ships while doing damage. Nessus fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 01:25 |
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Is this new dlc going to be removing tiles, or is that for a future release?
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 01:33 |
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This one.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 01:35 |
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Yessss, I have been holding off playing until that roles out.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 01:43 |
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The worst part is having to wait for someone to mod it so that I can make a driven assimilator megacorp. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our salesforce.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 06:26 |
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Nemo2342 posted:The worst part is having to wait for someone to mod it so that I can make a driven assimilator megacorp. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our salesforce. wait who are their customers if they're turning everyone into salesdrones
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 06:40 |
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Ciaphas posted:wait who are their customers if they're turning everyone into salesdrones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_wages
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 06:48 |
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Distant Worlds has a kind of tile based system with multiple unit types. You have infantry, armour, special forces and planetary defence. Planetary defences have a chance to shoot down troops landing on the planet but have expensive upkeep’s, special forces counter this by rolling to disable them ahead of an invasion. I forget the exact maths on infantry and armour. Invasion troops move forward on a map screen and it’s all automated but various modifiers affect go, damage and morale.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 06:55 |
OK I preordered. All in. I make the best deals, with my best pedipalps.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 08:13 |
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I wonder what would happen if there were ground defense stations folded into the Fortress or Planetary Shield improvements that let a planet shoot back against orbital bombardments.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 08:55 |
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Demiurge4 posted:Distant Worlds has a kind of tile based system with multiple unit types. You have infantry, armour, special forces and planetary defence. Planetary defences have a chance to shoot down troops landing on the planet but have expensive upkeep’s, special forces counter this by rolling to disable them ahead of an invasion. I forget the exact maths on infantry and armour. And all races had their own base strength for troopers. It never tells you this in game; you'd have to go file-diving to get the full numbers. It's important because of course by default standard assault infantry are gonna be the mainstay, mostly because things like Armour and Special Forces take more space on transports and take more time and trouble. There are three ways to vary on that basic system as tech permits. Elite Troops(+50% to the base strength. The troops produced are Infantry). Cloning(The most experienced infantry across your empire is cloned. Fairly quick to create). Robo-troops(Another type of Infantry. Cheap in terms of maintenance, fast to make, but weak. Still there are races that are only as strong as these or weaker.) Each planet can only have one of these troop buildings at once. Troops are expensive to keep, also. Bloodly fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Nov 29, 2018 |
# ? Nov 29, 2018 08:57 |
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Demon_Corsair posted:Is this new dlc going to be removing tiles, or is that for a future release? The patch that comes out the same time as the new DLC is removing the tiles. So you'll be able to check it out and see what you think without having to buy anything.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 09:32 |
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Nessus posted:I don't know if this was proposed, but why not have a component chunk for ships that lets you install a troop transport or something? Have it be available for all ship classes, although making a corvette-scale troop carrier means it will be unarmed (but your 4 troop corvettes can be screened by the 12 laser corvettes). Upgrades would work something like fighter/bombers do now, with some of the super-powered armies needing larger ships to carry them; I could see that you might need a destroyer to carry Godzilla to an alien planet. Or three corvettes working in tandem...
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 14:41 |
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In other news: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-136-2-2-le-guin-patch-notes.1132161/
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:00 |
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The most important new feature is 16 minutes of music. Okay and the worker voice pack.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:06 |
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Darkrenown posted:In other news: Saving us from ourselves!
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:08 |
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Huh, simplified Chinese localization is in. Maybe they'll stop review bombing the game now.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:14 |
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Darkrenown posted:In other news: Added Shared Burden civic for all your luxury space communism needs, with a new prescripted empire using it, the Kilik Cooperative
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:19 |
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Darkrenown posted:In other news: quote:#################################################################
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:20 |
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quote:Added a tech for slaver empires to designate a world as a Thrall-World. Thrall-Worlds cannot support city districts or manufacturing/research buildings, but get vastly increased growth rate and access to special buildings and jobs for slaves This is an amazing boon to Space Hitlers everywhere. Not sure how the new sectors will work - will literally only your starting cluster be under your direct control?
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:28 |
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Aethernet posted:This is an amazing boon to Space Hitlers everywhere. I believe the idea is that your core sector is whichever one your capital is located in.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:31 |
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Darkrenown posted:In other news: * Notifications dealing with the player’s own empire are now marked with a golden yellow rim to distinguish them from those affecting only other empires * You no longer get influence when another empire finishes first contact project before you do * Added a decision to curtail planetary growth through voluntary measures, available to empires that don't allow other forms of growth control. It reduces growth by 75% at the expense of increased pop upkeep I am running dangerously low on things to complain about. Splicer fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Nov 29, 2018 |
# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:33 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:18 |
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Aethernet posted:This is an amazing boon to Space Hitlers everywhere.
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# ? Nov 29, 2018 15:36 |