|
You might check out the 2e core? It's probably the best place to find all the setting changes packaged in one relatively digestible place. But then, you might not, because it is Extremely Gnostic even as it is also extremely Not Theosophy.
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 18:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:45 |
|
|
If I ever run into it for cheap somewhere, I'll at least give the new and improved version a fair shot at winning me over, if it's really that different.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
They entirely refocused the setting discussion off Atlantis, which gets barely any talk, to the Fallen World and the idea of mages basically always seeing magic and Truth and symbols everywhere, at all times, because magic is alive and powerful and you can see it now and life will never be the same.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 18:40
|
|
|
That sounds pretty good already, so I'll be carefully optimistic about it for now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 18:41
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:That's cool
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 19:07
|
|
|
Kwai-Chang Caine is still one of the funniest and most appropriate-feeling character concepts for an Akashic Brother that you can have, so I figure if nothing else, it comes by its cheesy pop culture connotations honestly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 19:17
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:Or, as it were, making the secret truth of reality. It's why I'll always like oMage more than nMage no matter how much of a mess it is: the overall message of "we are loving awesome" and a metaplot struggle that's all about settling who gets to decide what precise form our next cosmic step into being even more awesome will take. It's a fundamentally uplifting and optimistic take on the human condition that basically no WoD game has done before or since, even if it's the same type of generalized crapsack setting as all the rest of them in more immediate terms. nMage proposes that humans can conquer heaven with their own two hands, despite it not being innately predisposed to human mastery or even the human form. oMage proposes that human beings are just the center of the universe from the get-go and everything revolves around our beliefs. I know which one I find far more heroic and interesting. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Nov 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 19:27
|
|
|
That's a legitimate way to look at it as well, but I find the entire "democratized solipsism" conceit interesting and find the challenge of overcoming your own inner demons more engaging for a game about mystic enlightenment than overcoming the cabal of ten-thousand-year old rear end in a top hat mega-wizards. I guess in large part it's because so much of the entire rest of the oWoD is basically just "humanity is the helpless cattle that exists only for the superior supernatural master races to look even more awesome in comparison" and Ascension basically says "nuts to that, you're loving amazing, own it."
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 19:40
|
|
|
I honestly don't find that very appealing even when framed in the best possible light, but even if I did, Unknown Armies does it so much better that oMage just seems obsolete. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 19:53
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:I honestly don't find that very appealing even when framed in the best possible light, but even if I did, Unknown Armies does it so much better that oMage just seems obsolete. Unknown Armies is a great game that has a lot of very similar ideas but executes them completely differently, so it's more of a "would you like to use the Ferrari or the jetpack today" choice of which type of fun you'll be having.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 19:59
|
|
|
UA also has some super edgy elements which haven't aged well, regrettably.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:09
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:That's a legitimate way to look at it as well, but I find the entire "democratized solipsism" conceit interesting and find the challenge of overcoming your own inner demons more engaging for a game about mystic enlightenment than overcoming the cabal of ten-thousand-year old rear end in a top hat mega-wizards. I guess in large part it's because so much of the entire rest of the oWoD is basically just "humanity is the helpless cattle that exists only for the superior supernatural master races to look even more awesome in comparison" and Ascension basically says "nuts to that, you're loving amazing, own it."
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:12
|
|
|
What, you don't like sex wizards who worship and ritually re-enact the last moments of a porn actress who was so perfectly downtrodden that she became the platonic ideal of sexual objectification? quote:So it's not like that challenge is absent from nMage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:14
|
|
|
Yeah, this is one of those things that is probably a result of setting development after you stopped reading. Basically: the Exarchs aren't people. The Exarchs have not been people since they broke into the Supernal. The Exarchs are living symbols. Your enemy isn't Wizard Steve if you go up against the Paternoster and its agents - it is the literal concept of hollow religious authoritarianism. If you go up against the Eye, your enemy is surveillance, the idea and symbol. And if you go up against the Gate, your enemy is, uh, the entire concept of unreality, so that's fun.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:20
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:And if you go up against the Gate, your enemy is, uh, the entire concept of unreality, so that's fun.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:29
|
|
|
That particular angle of "the setting antagonists are the literal eldritch embodiments of what [insert_writer_here] thinks is wrong with modern society" seems like an incredibly 90s early oWoD thing in and of itself, when you put it like that... but still, I still like it more than what I thought the game would be based only on the 1st Ed. core book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:33
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:That particular angle of "the setting antagonists are the literal eldritch embodiments of what [insert_writer_here] thinks is wrong with modern society" seems like an incredibly 90s early oWoD thing in and of itself, when you put it like that... but still, I still like it more than what I thought the game would be based only on the 1st Ed. core book. It's arguably better having a magical gnostic force of <SURVEILLANCE_STATE> than having a massive pan-national shadow government that is making poo poo worse because whoops.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:36
|
|
|
Dunno. I like the idea that most of what's wrong with the world is because we screwed up and made it that way ourselves. Feels more authentic, because that's kinda how things actually do work. 1984's Big Brother wouldn't feel half as horrifying if you couldn't realistically imagine people inflicting exactly that kind of thing on themselves of their own free will. It's not like oMage doesn't still have Nephandi and the literal forces of uncreation trying to make the universe stop existing, if that kind of external threat is more what you like. I'm kinda curious why exactly you prefer the magical force of no-goodness, though. What is it that makes you like that approach more?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:44
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:That particular angle of "the setting antagonists are the literal eldritch embodiments of what [insert_writer_here] thinks is wrong with modern society" seems like an incredibly 90s early oWoD thing in and of itself, when you put it like that... but still, I still like it more than what I thought the game would be based only on the 1st Ed. core book. Besides the Father (the symbol of authoritarian religion) and the Paternoster Agency that serves it, the rest are pretty purely inarguable bads - Surveillence (the Eye), Indiscriminate Violence (the General), Mindless Obedience (the Unity), Greed And Scarcity (the Chancellor), Ignorance (the Nemesis), Tyranny (the Prophet), Suffering In Death (the Psychopomp), and the Abyss (the Gate). They also all technically have an Arcanum associated with them except the Gate but that part really doesn't come up too much. e: as for the bad things being human-generated - they are. But the idea is that the Exarchs actively encourage it by making the world continue to produce these ideas by its circumstances, in order to blind humanity with the Lie and keep them from finding what is true. The Exarchs are symbols because these things exist, but it's humans that enact them. The Exarchs very rarely work directly and mostly just send dreams to their servants that are semi-incomprehensible and don't provide clear direction. They are demiurges but they aren't directly whispering in the ears of everyone - they're arranging circumstances so that their symbol continues to dominate human discourse. It's like...these things would still exist without them, but would not be as pervasive or as choking of truth. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Nov 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:48
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:I'm kinda curious why exactly you prefer the magical force of no-goodness, though. What is it that makes you like that approach more? Because one is a depressing reflection of real life and the other is me punching oppression in the face in a scene best depicted on the side of a panel van.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:57
|
|
|
So are they impersonal forces of bad untruthy things who aren't people anymore, or do they have enough individual identity to have organized groups of servants that they can and do personally communicate with? It seems the setting isn't quite clear on what it wants them to be. I think I would like it better if they scrapped the whole "Exarch" angle and just declared them cosmic anti-truths that arose in response to whatever split the world in two and made it fall, and the job of a mage is stitching the universe back together so they go away again. Maybe it comes across better in the source books, but right now, I'm reminded of that time Werewolf decreed that the god of Abraham is actually the evil bane spirit of Patriarchy who hates women for the intrinsic superiority of their luscious nakes asses. quote:Because one is a depressing reflection of real life and the other is me punching oppression in the face in a scene best depicted on the side of a panel van.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 20:58
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:So are they impersonal forces of bad untruthy things who aren't people anymore, or do they have enough individual identity to have organized groups of servants that they can and do personally communicate with? It seems the setting isn't quite clear on what it wants them to be. I think I would like it better if they scrapped the whole "Exarch" angle and just declared them cosmic anti-truths that arose in response to whatever split the world in two and made it fall, and the job of a mage is stitching the universe back together so they go away again. The Exarchs are entities with wills, motivations, and goals. This is pretty well-supported by the texts even if it kind of dances around the issue of exactly what it means to be an Exarch and how it compares to being an ascended archmage or a pre-Fall Pangaean / Old God. As far as I'm concerned that makes them people, even if they are also living symbols. Also nah, the Exarchs just being cosmic anti-truths would suck. While most of the Exarchs more or less represent timeless and eternal ideas, by far the most interesting portrayals of them are the ones where they represent or inhabit historically contingent evils. "The Panopticon as imagined by Michel Foucault, but it made itself into God and wants to crush your spirit" is way more fun than just "the eternal essence of tyranny."
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:02
|
|
|
The Exarchs are both. They have servants - the Seers of the Throne - and can, with some effort, send forth direct servants, their ochemata. However, they largely operate by sending dreams and symbols to the Seers because they aren't human, and don't think like humans. They are symbols, and think like symbols. So they communicate by symbols and omens. It is entirely possible that the mages that broke into the Supernal and wrecked everything ended up merging with the already extant symbols that they would become and basically just...motivated them into activity and sentience, and that those old minds no longer exist in any capacity. Archmastery and ascension to the Supernal are giant-rear end mysteries that have few clear answers, after all. The Seers claim that service to the Exarchs is the path to ascending and becoming an Exarch yourself but this is expressly a religious view that is not testable or provable. The Exarchs barely interact with the Fallen World in the day to day except via omens and symbols, because their basic goal is 'maintain the status quo, keep humanity trapped in the Lie, ensure no one else can pull the stupid Exarch trick.' E: that said each one does have actionable goals. Like the Chancellor's basic mission statement is 'make people treat each other as commodities'. E2: And I like the Exarchs because their existence makes it more likely, IMO, for PCs to look at things and go 'you know what? gently caress that, I'mma fix it' as WELL as engaging in Indiana Jones adventures. Having the evil demiurges explicitly be encouraging awful things for people has, in my experience, made players tend to make PCs who do cool things to help folks out. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Nov 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:03
|
|
|
The explanation I like most is that the Exarchs occupy "thrones" that predated their ascension. Exactly what a Supernal throne is is up for debate, but basically Father Wolf and the rest of his lot occupied some kind of special niche in the Supernal and were booted out when the Exarchs took over. The way it's presented kind of suggests that occupying the thrones is perpendicular to the question of what Supernal ideas you are / inhabit, which is why it makes such a huge cosmological difference whether the Old Gods or the Exarchs are in charge, despite the fact that Supernal ideas that they each embody were probably there all along. The Exarchs coming to power meant that the fundamental order of the world shifted from predator-prey to master-slave, and that's really cool. (I mean, conceptually. For someone living under them they both kind of suck, although arguably the latter is a small step towards something better.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:09
|
|
|
Honestly, I don't see a ton of difference in the broad strokes between stuff like Control and the Exarchs, but the latter benefits a lot from having much more thought put into it before getting the core book published.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:11
|
|
|
quote:"The Panopticon as imagined by Michel Foucault, but it made itself into God and wants to crush your spirit" is way more fun than just "the eternal essence of tyranny."
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:13
|
|
|
The Exarchs are only "ancient supernatural horrors" in the most limited sense, though. They're former human beings who overthrew the genuinely ancient supernatural horrors in the setting just a few thousand years ago. Tyranny and oppression don't exist because of the Exarchs, but they predominate human affairs because when human beings got their turn at being gods, tyranny and oppression were the ideas they chose to identify with. Human agency is still very important to this story, but what we do matters, rather than what we believe. Fighting the Exarchs works pretty well as a dramatic metaphor for fighting capitalism or patriarchy or whatever, with the added fantasy that if you advance far enough in the social and symbolic struggle, then one day you can literally punch capitalism or patriarchy in the face.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:21
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:I'm just kind of tired of nearly every WoD setting running on the idea that ancient supernatural horrors are the immediate reason for every single thing that is bad about the world, but also really basically just doing it "for the evulz." The Abyss works well because it's a (super)natural side effect of the world breaking and, in and of itself, as objectively morally evil as radioactivity. The exarchs being essentially Captain Planet villains who are into social injustice instead of environmental pollution doesn't seem any better to me than the Technocracy's leadership turning into a literal spirit of hegemonic oppression. I mean if you're tired of that particular thing that's fine, but honestly Captain Planet's villains are in hindsight surprisingly true to life. Edit for more seriousness: They're probably not doing it "just for the evulz", but like with any real life oppressors, from the position of the downtrodden it doesn't look too different from that. They perpetuate all these lovely things because they want the power it gives them. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Nov 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:22
|
|
|
That Old Tree posted:Edit for more seriousness: They're probably not doing it "just for the evulz", but like with any real life oppressors, from the position of the downtrodden it doesn't look too different from that. They perpetuate all these lovely things because they want the power it gives them. Exactly. It's also why the Seers of the Throne book is really good, because it goes into depth on how someone who serves the Exarchs justifies that to themselves. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Nov 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:29
|
|
|
Yeah, the Exarchs have an actual motive: they want to stay as gods and not have anyone do to them what they did to the Old Gods. The entire setup is not for the sake of evil, but because their oppressions prevent Awakenings from being anything but a trickle, and therefore make it super unlikely anyone will be able to rebuild the Ladder and retake Heaven by force.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:30
|
|
|
Also it's worth noting that the Exarchs are specifically modeled off of like... actual critical theory about oppression, then thrown through the Gnostical blender. The Eye is Foucault's Panopticon as a deity, and also the tyranny of the 'objective' single point of view. The Eye is literally the true yet subjective gaze, the gaze of God, and it is the power that oppresses. It's not the deepest thing ever but having that degree of thought and foundation really makes the Exarchs work for me- they are forces for tyranny in the world which derive their power from reinforcing tyranny above and below, not people, and I hate them and want to do a deicide on them. Imperium is the birthright of humanity, etc E: what Mors said, the Exarchs are in this to rule forever, and that means both being as powerful as possible (as symbolically key to the universe as possible), and making sure nobody has the chance to do some kind of star ladder or utopian bullshit that might shake their thrones from down in the Phenomenal. They, unlike the Old Gods, know what the human soul unchained can do. E2: well, the Old Gods know it NOW, dead or bound as they are. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Nov 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:31
|
|
|
Also this bit is relevant to what we've been talking about : Seers of the Throne, pg. 21 posted:The Delusion of Control
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:32
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Human agency is still very important to this story, but what we do matters, rather than what we believe. Fighting the Exarchs works pretty well as a dramatic metaphor for fighting capitalism or patriarchy or whatever, with the added fantasy that if you advance far enough in the social and symbolic struggle, then one day you can literally punch capitalism or patriarchy in the face. quote:The entire setup is not for the sake of evil
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:I'm just kind of tired of nearly every WoD setting running on the idea that ancient supernatural horrors are the immediate reason for every single thing that is bad about the world, but also really basically just doing it "for the evulz." The Abyss works well because it's a (super)natural side effect of the world breaking and, in and of itself, as objectively morally evil as radioactivity. The exarchs being essentially Captain Planet villains who are into social injustice instead of environmental pollution doesn't seem any better to me than the Technocracy's leadership turning into a literal spirit of hegemonic oppression. That's the big-picture evil explaining the origin of the evils you encounter in-game. It's the backdrop the setpieces are built against that the foam suit megazord that is Your Players smashes through. We all tend to forget how irrelevant the metaplot is for most in-universe NPCs/PCs because we're all huge nerds with libraries of information looking for an excuse to prove its utility. I think the numeric tracking for Generation is one of the biggest deals for that, no one outside of the Ventrue or maybe some Tremere would have any actual idea of how many vampires came before them, let alone how it might correlate to raw character power. Your games can have as much justified "evulz" as the metaplot as ancient horrors, "because it earns them money" is as great a reason for Pentex to do stuff as "because they're literal spirits of hegemony." Nothing in the books is true if you say it isn't. Also, where in the Old World did anyone ever speak with authority about What Actually Happened? I was under the impression that everything was Unreliably Narrated.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:E2: well, the Old Gods know it NOW, dead or bound as they are. Well, there's at least one probable Old God who saw the writing on the wall, and decided or accidentally managed to evolve in a way that allowed it to thrive in an environment a) dominated by humans and b) dominated by ideas of tyranny and control. Cardiovorax posted:I kind of feel like that would fit better into an Exalted game, thematically. You (and even humanity in general) explicitly holding no individual or personal fault at all for the state of the world is just not something I see as very compatible with a game where hubris is your own designated tragic character flaw. That we, collectively, chose to make it that way and it's up to us to choose to be better, not just in what we do but also in what we decide is right? Fits in a lot better with the "with great power comes great responsibility" moral you get from that, at least in my opinion. Hubris is a coward's word! I ultimately like Geist and Demon better than Mage because they basically can't be read as saying that trying to change the world is inherently arrogant, but even Mage can be read as a setting in which making any significant changes has deliberately been made as difficult and dangerous as possible, not because change is bad or un-Wise, but because the existing power structure hates change. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:I kind of feel like that would fit better into an Exalted game, thematically. You (and even humanity in general) explicitly holding no individual or personal fault at all for the state of the world is just not something I see as very compatible with a game where hubris is your own designated tragic character flaw. That we, collectively, chose to make it that way and it's up to us to choose to be better, not just in what we do but also in what we decide is right? Fits in a lot better with the "with great power comes great responsibility" moral you get from that, at least in my opinion. I mean, the answer to what they're doing now in the Supernal is an open question. It goes unanswered, largely because when you get to the point that you storm Heaven and find out you've probably won the game. E: and humans are not completely without fault for the state of the world at all. It's just that the world is a rigged game, designed to make the bad choices more reasonable-seeming.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
At a certain point I feel nMage is or at lest could be about Indiana Jonesing it up - complete with fighting off nazis - and then using your discoveries to punch fascism to death both literally and metaphysicaly,
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:42
|
|
|
quote:I mean, the answer to what they're doing now in the Supernal is an open question. It goes unanswered, largely because when you get to the point that you storm Heaven and find out you've probably won the game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:51
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:The explanation I like most is that the Exarchs occupy "thrones" that predated their ascension. Exactly what a Supernal throne is is up for debate, but basically Father Wolf and the rest of his lot occupied some kind of special niche in the Supernal and were booted out when the Exarchs took over. So, the anatomy of an Exarch. When mages use their Mage Sight, they're seeing a Supernal World, the Fallen World they're in overlaid with symbols of their Path. The theoretical state of those symbols when there isn't a mage looking at them is the Supernal Realm, a neo-Platonist conceptual thing made up of the Truth of everything everywhere. Sometimes, the symbols in the Supernal World take the form of creatures; these are Supernal Entities. So, for example, an Obrimos in a boardroom can use her Mage Sight to look into The Aether, which is the Fallen World with extra added Obrimos. She can see golden chains of office and auras around the people denoting relative status, and knows that the CFO is the one actually in charge because in the Aether he's more bedecked. She can also see what looks like a Lion-sphinx prowling the corridors outside; this is an Angel, probably a Seraph (a Prime- focused Angel), a Supernal Entity of Aether. Beyond the immediate instances of them the mage is seeing, though, the Orders posit that in the Supernal Realm there's the Platonic Lion-Sphinx and Chain-of-Office that defines them. Now, sometimes the Supernal World gets so involved that it forms terrain-like effects only mages of the correct Path using their Sight can see and interact with. Momentus decision points in Arcadia (the Acanthus Path) create jagged, quicksilver "cracks" spreading out from the decision-maker that Acanthus call "Thorns," for example. An Acanthus who grabs hold of them (and yes, it hurts) can see alternate timelines based on the forking decision. These terrain-ish things are collectively called Aedes. In places where a form of oppression has grown especially dominant, in the presence of Supernal Entities loyal to the Thrones, in Emanation Realms (think Horizon Realms) relating to them, and in the Oneiros of high-ranking Seers, the Supernal World warps to form complicated, twisting runes in High Speech - the fingerprints of something in the Supernal Realm mages can't see. If mages scrutinize these at length, they get a sense of what kind of oppression it is, flashes of intent and a strong urge to perform a task. Think of it as touching the One Ring and seeing a flash of the Eye of Sauron. The Seers of the Throne record these runes and traditionally render them as decorations for their sancta in Iron, which is why mages call them Iron Seals. If a mage follows the commands she gets from an Iron Seal often enough, a gateway made of black iron forms in her Oneiros (and may eventually become an Iron Seal itself). If she opens it, she's tested, brutally, by What Lies Beyond. If she passes, loyally, she's a Prelate. She gains some metamagic powers based on the Iron Seal she's linked to, and gets commands from it without trying for them. Whatever it is sending the commandments is dedicated to making the Fallen World Fallen, keeping humanity in its box, and is willing to reward her for continued service. Based on these traits, mages refer to them by the Greek for "Rule from Outside". Or, simply, Exarch. Over the centuries, Seers have had certain commandments often enough that they have a set of basic principles (conquer the watchtowers, protect humanity from existential threats, control magic, divide humanity, that sort of thing) and certain Iron Seals keep turning up, such that the Seers have a loosely-defined pantheon of known Exarchs. "The General", for instance, is the commonly-accepted English shorthand for the Exarch that appears to be the symbol of ruling through threat of violence. The Exarchs don't just act through their Seers. They have other servants, too, ranging from twisted former-human servitors (nMage's equivalent of HIT marks and MiBs), secret peoples, cryptids, Seer-like cults of other supernatural beings, Supernal entities loyal to them, and formerly-Seer archmasters, and when they don't trust any of those or the Seers to handle something important they can send an Ochema, a god-like Avatar formed by manifesting a shadow of the central Exarch into the Fallen World as something resembling a physical supernal entity. Far from doing it for the lulz, the Pentacle suspects that the Exarchs reinforce their rule over the universe constantly because they have to. They entered the Supernal Realm in order to rule it, so are now trapped having to actively do that, as that's all they are, now. They don't exterminate mages (but insist that Seers try to figure out a way to make all mages Seers) because they *were* mages, so they need mages to exist in order to keep existing. If every human everywhere became pacifist, the General would find itself severely curtailed. The Diamond Orders' long-term gameplan is to figure out how to get their own cosmic-scale backers and free everyone by dethroning them in the Supernal. The Free Council believes that if you gouge their ideology on Earth, the Exarch symbolizing it is neutered anyway. In short - a character won't ever meet an Exarch. They are as Horde Prime is to Skeletor, as Morgoth is to the Nine, the unseen presence offscreen that the big bad reports to. Lastly, they aren't fully responsible for making the world crappy. They represent its crappiness and have a vested interest in it remaining crappy, but the only reason the symbol of Environmental Damage has any power is all the environmental damage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:45 |
|
|
I mean, if you don't like demiurges, you're not gonna like demiurges.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2018 21:53
|
|