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Cuntpunch posted:I mean great, if you're looking to bus tables during a gap year. But when you're figuring it's a step up in your career but you have no social support system in place and literally no experience at all with international anything - the culture shock and isolation is bracing at best. Not saying that you *can't* do it - just that it takes a pretty specific sort and some indication of thoughtfulness and preparation. Right, I have no idea how he presented himself in the interview. And its good advice to be prepared to answer questions about where you would relocate to.
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Nov 28, 2018 22:00
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friendbot2000 posted:The reason this is relevant to the thread. Do not do what this guy is doing. You can dress up your experience a little, but don't abuse the English language to make yourself appear better than you are. It will end badly for you. I wouldn't even waste time fluffing tbh. In an interview you only have me for 15, 30, maybe 60 minutes. My main task (usually) is to walk away from the interview with an answer to the question "can this person do the work, or learn to do the work" with everything else being secondary. If you write "assisted with complex delivery of multimedia assets in a challenging atmosphere" and it takes me 10 minutes just to get you to admit "wrote unit tests for a React SPA" - that's 10 minutes you wasted. I might even be irritated. My favorite interviews have always been where the resume is concise and easy to understand what they did. Trust me, you have plenty of room to impress me if you're humble, yet confident, in your accomplishments.
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Nov 29, 2018 01:47
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22 Eargesplitten posted:I'm applying for an internship and there's some studying / skills tests aspects, since it's designed to include people with no programming background as long as they show aptitude. I know some people might balk at the idea of doing that much work for a job application, but I understand it given that it's an apprenticeship with no education or experience requirements and also why not since it's a web dev thing and I'm currently working on a website of my own anyway, more opportunities to learn. This is a bit back but if you want to learn this in general look up the OSI model. HTTP is layer 7 and TCP/UDP is layer 5, and in general things in each layer are somewhat agnostic about the things above and below them. You can also use HTTP whether your layer 3 is IPv4 or IPv6, or if your layer 2 is 802.11a or 802.11b.
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Nov 29, 2018 08:00
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I would like to check if I'm way off base here. Three weeks ago I was invited to apply to the Insight Data PM Fellowship program. The process for doing the "homework" case study was slow, unresponsive and opaque, red flag #1. Yesterday they emailed me to schedule an interview time slot with 15 minute slots (red flag #2). I take the literal first one, which is 13 hours after the invite email is sent out, so it is obvious they are rushing to meet their self imposed deadline of the end of the month. In the email they say the Zoom meeting invite will be sent out a few minutes before the interview (red flag #3), which is a disaster waiting to happen. So, 10 minutes before my interview starts I'm in Gmail forcing it to fetch mail every minute so the email doesn't sit on some google server somewhere. This goes on for 40 minutes when I give up, because they are obviously wasting my time. They did not give me any alternative means to contact the interviewer. I click their original invite email from the sign up (general information email address that they had not previously responded to) to tell them I can't wait any longer and of course I finally get both the invite email and an "where are you?  " email from the interviewer, now 30 minutes late. So I reply saying I don't know what happened but I just got the emails and then clicked the Zoom meeting link. I'm taken to a screen showing the interviewer is in another meeting (no kidding) and asking me to wait (red flag #4). About five minutes later I'm taken into the video conference and no one else shows up (red flag #5). They've hosed up every other part of this interview, so I decide to be patient. I reply to the "where are you?" email about 30 minutes later with a "I'm in the video conference, where are you?" and I have not heard anything since. I waited around for 1.5 hours chatting with friends and browsing the forums and finally sent a "we need to reschedule" email. Since the interviewers schedule was totally booked, I guess that isn't going to happen, but I'm a job seeker so I don't get to have dignity or standards.With all that said, this was the obvious outcome of their procrastination. I've been to many conferences before and been on hundreds of worldwide conference calls, I've seen this song and dance too many times to count. I'm wondering if this sort of obviously stupid behavior is some kind of normal? Comedy question: should I offer my services unfucking their recruiting?
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Nov 29, 2018 11:46
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This smells a lot like bottom-feeding shotgun recruitment to me, which yes is very common; they don't care about a poo poo application process because the unemployed will put up with a lot of garbage to be not unemployed, and if they lose even half their candidates to their half-assing they still have a functionally infinite well to draw from. Which is funny because at a glance Insight seems well-liked. Either they're scumbags with great marketing and an army of sock puppets extolling their program, or they're a legit organization that has a stupid recruitment process (almost sounds like a frat from what I'm reading - everyone's saying how great the "network" is). I have a hard time believing that an organization that cared about their reputation would at all would put this kind of foot forward, though. I am wildly jumping to a conclusion here, this is not a company I'm familiar with.
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Nov 29, 2018 12:42
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Helicity posted:I wouldn't even waste time fluffing tbh. In an interview you only have me for 15, 30, maybe 60 minutes. My main task (usually) is to walk away from the interview with an answer to the question "can this person do the work, or learn to do the work" with everything else being secondary. If you write "assisted with complex delivery of multimedia assets in a challenging atmosphere" and it takes me 10 minutes just to get you to admit "wrote unit tests for a React SPA" - that's 10 minutes you wasted. I might even be irritated. The problem is that the people giving the interview are very rarely the first viewer of your resume. At most companies, your resume has to go through an HR representative before it gets to the engineers who do the interviews, as well as many phone screens. And I say this with absolutely no judgment because it's not their job, but they have no idea what the gently caress any of your code-related achievements mean, and probably do not care. That's where all the fluffing comes from, trying to impress someone with language who would balk at you if you spoke plainly just to get your resume into the eyes of someone who wouldn't balk at you.
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Nov 29, 2018 13:04
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That's just not how it works most of the time. I've come across woefully inept part time HR people, office managers, and recruiters and they still had almost zero agency in deciding which resumes got through. Even at the most ragtag startup I was at, resumes were filtered on whether they seemed legit and presentable and if they met the bare minimum tech bar. Then the CTO and the developers sat in a room and quickly filtered the rest. Use common sense, communicate clearly and be proud of your accomplishments without sounding like a liar or a delusional person. luchadornado fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 14:10
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Helicity posted:That's just not how it works most of the time. I've come across woefully inept part time HR people, office managers, and recruiters and they still had almost zero agency in deciding which resumes got through. Even at the most ragtag startup I was at, resumes were filtered on whether they seemed legit and presentable and if they met the bare minimum tech bar. Then the CTO and the developers sat in a room and quickly filtered the rest. You mention startups, but giant corporations (especially non-tech ones) are much more likely to have a poor hiring process involving many non-technical people in my experience. I once got a 12 page resume filled with broken English for evaluation because they had all the right buzzwords and experience levels.
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Nov 29, 2018 15:36
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It's true that hiring processes could/should be better at every company. That example kind of validates my point because the screener would check off the buzzwords and experience levels and keep that resume in the pool regardless of fluff degree. Man, I dread those 12 page resumes  In the spirit of this conversation, in the last 10 years I've: quote:actively promoted synergistic solutions encompassing multiple key stakeholders regarding the talent acquisition process at the previously mentioned ragtag startup, a startup on the cusp of IPO, a Fortune 500, and a Fortune 100. I've seen hundreds of resumes and interviewed dozens of people. I'm not saying my opinions on the hiring process are perfect, but I've got fairly decent breadth of experience there. I understand the midwest and east coast markets decently, and I recognize that my opinions might not hold weight at all in Silicon Valley or other countries. Fluff is gratuitous embellishment by definition, and I think it's bad advice for this thread to say it's necessary or even helpful. You're trading potential in the interview stage for survival in the screening stage, and at best, it helps you survive the first pass at a place that gets snookered by fluff. Those places are usually desperate enough to take anything fluff/no-fluff in this healthy market, IMO.
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Nov 29, 2018 16:02
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Helicity posted:That's just not how it works most of the time. I've come across woefully inept part time HR people, office managers, and recruiters and they still had almost zero agency in deciding which resumes got through. Even at the most ragtag startup I was at, resumes were filtered on whether they seemed legit and presentable and if they met the bare minimum tech bar. Then the CTO and the developers sat in a room and quickly filtered the rest. It is at larger companies. We just finished a round of hiring and were at the mercy of receiving the majority of our candidates from our HR reps who did the mandatory "prescreening" for us. We're not even a tech company so to say that HR has no idea what anything on a dev's resume means isn't an understatement. The types of fluff they look for are both hilarious and depressing, and when I found out the kind of things they were passing over (had a chat with one of them about what I'd like to see) it made my brain hurt.
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Nov 29, 2018 17:38
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It doesn't feel like we're going anywhere useful without specific examples and maybe a better definition of "fluff". I've been at decent companies with 50, 500, 5000, 100k people, and fluff wasn't necessary at any of them. It was actually detrimental as the org got larger. That's my anecdotal experience, and it sounds like some of you have differing experience.
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Nov 29, 2018 18:09
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Helicity posted:I've been at decent companies with 50, 500, 5000, 100k people, and fluff wasn't necessary at any of them. It was actually detrimental as the org got larger. I've been at a decent companies with 80k/100k+ people and I won't sit here pretending I was up to speed on hiring practices across the worldwide engineering staff. I couldn't tell you if the folks across the aisle had the same pro- or anti- fluff stance that I did. Does this stop at software engineering, or is it also applicable to the IT and Marketing org hiring practices? Do you discount European-style CV's with a lot of information on prior roles as fluff? Are you the person that "welcomes" new hires to a 100k+ person company on LinkedIn??
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Nov 29, 2018 18:31
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I'm just a dev who weighs in on hiring lots of people, talks to recruiters, directors, etc. as friends and colleagues, and cares about the hiring process. I've also kind of run out of things to say on the matter, so we'll have to agree to disagree if you think fluff is a good thing to recommend.
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Nov 30, 2018 00:02
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Helicity posted:we'll have to agree to disagree if you think fluff is a good thing to recommend. Fantastic good faith reading of "you can't possibly know the hiring practices across a 100k person company" but maybe you could namedrop a C-level chum? Would really put us over the top here, directors aren't so impressive.
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Nov 30, 2018 00:27
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JawnV6 posted:Fantastic good faith reading of "you can't possibly know the hiring practices across a 100k person company" but maybe you could namedrop a C-level chum? Would really put us over the top here, directors aren't so impressive. I don't mind going into this, but you're coming across rather harsh. It seems to me like you hold the belief that some degree of fluff is necessary, you dismiss my anecdotal evidence that fluff can potentially work against you at several orgs all over the spectrum of size, and question my authority to speak about those experiences. What is your actual disagreement here? edit: VVVV Grats! I've always told them when my last day is if I didn't care for my boss or job, or if I did care, ask them if X date works. I've only had them ask me to stay longer once. luchadornado fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 00:39
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I just finalized negotiations and got an official start date with a new company which is exciting. My start date is Jan 4 and I'm wondering what the right thing is to do regarding when I give notice since the two weeks before includes all of these company holidays that no one will be around for. Do I just count back 10 work days from my last intended day and say screw it or should I give more notice to make up for the days we won't be in the office?
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Nov 30, 2018 00:44
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Portland Sucks posted:I just finalized negotiations and got an official start date with a new company which is exciting. My start date is Jan 4 and I'm wondering what the right thing is to do regarding when I give notice since the two weeks before includes all of these company holidays that no one will be around for. Do I just count back 10 work days from my last intended day and say screw it or should I give more notice to make up for the days we won't be in the office? It depends on how much you like them. Chances are you won't have any real work to do those last two weeks, anyway. Don't sweat it.
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Nov 30, 2018 01:09
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Portland Sucks posted:I just finalized negotiations and got an official start date with a new company which is exciting. My start date is Jan 4 and I'm wondering what the right thing is to do regarding when I give notice since the two weeks before includes all of these company holidays that no one will be around for. Do I just count back 10 work days from my last intended day and say screw it or should I give more notice to make up for the days we won't be in the office? If you're certain your company won't fire you then give them 10 working days, if you aren't certain tell them on the 2nd or be willing to risk losing the paid time off over the holiday.
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Nov 30, 2018 01:34
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One company I was in hosed me on vacation when I put in my two weeks and one did me right. It's your call - do you need a good reference from any of them in the future? If not, get your vacation. They'll be fine.
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Nov 30, 2018 01:45
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If you're in a spot where losing a weeks pay wouldnt really matter, just have the 21st of Dec be your last day and enjoy not having to work for a bit.
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Nov 30, 2018 02:02
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I guess it just comes down to how much I like them then. There is no chance that my work will dry up when I give notice, the likely situation is that they'll want me to get 2 years of work done in 2 weeks. I'd like to get paid as long as possible but I don't want them screwing with my holidays or PTO that I've already got scheduled. Kind of a wacky time to be giving notice I guess.
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Nov 30, 2018 02:14
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If you give notice and they ask you to do a bunch of things and you don't, what happens?
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Nov 30, 2018 02:20
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Helicity posted:It seems to me like you hold the belief that some degree of fluff is necessary, you dismiss my anecdotal evidence that fluff can potentially work against you at several orgs all over the spectrum of size, and question my authority to speak about those experiences. By boiling it down to "fluff," and 100% recommending against it, is bad blanket advice for newbies. There's a lot of room to tailor any given resume for various roles. Say you're applying to a FE role and backend role, you could take the same experience and fluff it in either direction. Highlighting the technical heavy lifting in a project vs. the client impact or soft skills in communicating that effort to stakeholders. I think that FE/BE are pretty close and there's still a delta, I can't imagine a cookie cutter resume aiming at both QA or technical marketing is getting there without the slightest bit of prose. And, as rock-solid and firm as I consider "anecdotal evidence that fluff can potentially work against you," does that even apply to all methods of resume presentation? In my personal job searches I have submitted different resume styles to black-hole portals (assuming a keyword search) and personal introductions. But sure, "ALL FLUFF BAD, I ASK DIRECTOR" is totally valid. Strip those resumes bare, ideally a ticket count per language.
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Nov 30, 2018 03:42
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The resume you saw with the DOD reference probably saw/learned that language in the DOD. The military is huge on fluffy language for APRs. I wouldn't be surprised if the applicant saw it as part of their review process in a DOD position. I don't like it, but have found it successful. And let's be honest, the whole application process isn't far from marketing.
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Nov 30, 2018 03:51
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JawnV6 posted:Any one-size-fits-all solution purporting to seamlessly represent 100k+ folks is asinine at best and dangerously misleading at worst. You're absolutely right that blanket advice can be bad and doesn't cover every scenario, and that you should tailor all communication to the intended audience. By that measure, giving blanket advice of "fluff is good" is also problematic. I think this is where the definition of "fluff" would have been useful. I don't know enough about the other IT, marketing, or 95% of the rest of the org you mentioned because I work as a software developer, and this is the newbie programming interviews thread. Can we assume to be focusing on tailoring a resume for a software developer position for this conversation? quote:Furthermore, namedropping how Directors consider roles may not be as appropriate as you think to the "Newbie" thread and does not represent the actual gauntlet that fresh RCG's and bootcamp graduates have to run. I think this is the part that bothered you, because there was some disagreement with my original statement and this can easily come off as an appeal to authority "I know all these fancy people so I'm right". I apologize if that's how it was presented, because that's not how it was intended. My hope was to convey that it wasn't just my singular experience with a screener, but a culmination of frequently talking with people that stress out about how to hire and screen newbies. The overall sentiment from them is that there is a difference between creatively and confidently describing your experience and many of the things they actually see. I've done the job fair thing from both ends, and I've been involved with bootcamp programs, and these directors are usually the ones running or driving them. quote:By boiling it down to "fluff," and 100% recommending against it, is bad blanket advice for newbies. There's a lot of room to tailor any given resume for various roles. Say you're applying to a FE role and backend role, you could take the same experience and fluff it in either direction. Highlighting the technical heavy lifting in a project vs. the client impact or soft skills in communicating that effort to stakeholders. I think that FE/BE are pretty close and there's still a delta, I can't imagine a cookie cutter resume aiming at both QA or technical marketing is getting there without the slightest bit of prose. Other than assuming we're focusing on software development, which is fair for this thread I hope, I agree with you. quote:But sure, "ALL FLUFF BAD, I ASK DIRECTOR" is totally valid. Strip those resumes bare, ideally a ticket count per language. This isn't necessary to make your point, and isn't the nature of my opinion. If it came off that way, again, I apologize.
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Nov 30, 2018 13:49
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downout posted:The resume you saw with the DOD reference probably saw/learned that language in the DOD. The military is huge on fluffy language for APRs. I wouldn't be surprised if the applicant saw it as part of their review process in a DOD position. I don't like it, but have found it successful. And let's be honest, the whole application process isn't far from marketing. Yup. I have worked in the DoD before and got out because I hated working in the military industrial complex. One of my biggest pet peeves is how these places teach people to use words to obfuscate meaning. At the risk of being a 28-year-old going "old man yells at cloud" I have a big problem with how people...just don't communicate and say what they mean without layer upon layer of obfuscation. The way this guy wrote the rest of his resume screamed of arrogance and a know-it-all attitude. I will interview him and give him a chance to change my mind, but being haughty in your resume is a giant turnoff when you are applying for an internship. In my career, I have already had to fire interns because they thought that because their daddy was a high-ranking member of the Navy/Insert Political Office that they could coast and not do jack poo poo. I don't have the patience for that kind of bullshit and have learned to spot the problem candidates a mile away. Sometimes I wonder if it is only Northern VA that is full of these privileged fuckwits...
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Nov 30, 2018 16:25
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ultrafilter posted:If you give notice and they ask you to do a bunch of things and you don't, what happens? Nothing that would negatively effect me.
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Nov 30, 2018 18:34
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friendbot2000 posted:The way this guy wrote the rest of his resume screamed of arrogance and a know-it-all attitude ... I don't have the patience for that kind of bullshit and have learned to spot the problem candidates a mile away. I think there is a real danger here that you are overestimating your ability to do this. For example, your reaction to the NSF section on that kid's resume is completely off the wall. I hire people to work on stuff pretty close to what he's describing and I think the snippit you posted is extremely informative. Each bullet point in that section clearly communicates a relevant piece of information to someone who knows how to read it. quote:National Science Foundation-Center for Research in Computer Vision <-- this says where he worked The paper will have much more detail on the specific thing he built, and his position in the author list of the paper will be a strong signal of how much of it he is responsible for. I understand this may not be as obvious to you since you are clearly not familiar with this area of work. But reacting with "This guy is 20 years old and is trying to come across as some Baby Einstein" says a lot more about your own lack of knowledge than does about the resume you are complaining about. To me this reads as a concise and factual description of a potentially interesting project. Nippashish fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 20:11
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Portland Sucks posted:Nothing that would negatively effect me. Exactly. Do what's best for you and don't worry about it.
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Dec 1, 2018 01:09
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I participate a lot in get-a-job chatrooms and communities, like this thread. Last year, in 2017, a guy in one of them who owned a small business took pity on me and offered to give me a few hours of doing some simple things so that I could at least have something to show on my resume as experience (most everything in my experience section is like that, really). He had been giving me a few hours of work per month to do as a 1099 contractor so that I could make it look on my resume like I had at least some kind of current experience. It was for doing simple game development tasks with the Unreal Engine, working on maintaining some old product of theirs that they didn't care much about anymore. This has been going on for a bit over a year now and has been my only source of income. Often during this past year the guy who had been allowing me to do those few hours of work per month had been telling me that he'd try to get me an interview with another company that his company in turn does contracting work for, but nothing ever really happened. Fast forward to a week or two ago, news came out that that company was apparently just bought out by Microsoft. The guy told me again that he'll try to set up an interview with them because his company still does contract work for them, but this time it actually lead to an interview. I did the interview with the person last week and this morning the guy sent me a message saying that they will make an offer to do 2 months with them as a full-time remote contractor and then they'll decide if they want to make it permanent and have me relocate back to the US. I've never turned down an offer before in my life, so I agreed... but nothing is signed or written down so I'm refusing to believe that this is all for real. I've had close calls in the past (e.g. one time in 2017 a recruiter told me that there was a verbal offer, but then they ghosted me immediately afterward; also in 2015 after a few interviews one place said they were interested but it fell apart because I couldn't realistically start in 1 week), but it's something at least and is the first piece of non-bad news I've had all year. Since nothing is certain it doesn't really change anything in terms of my job search, though.
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Dec 1, 2018 02:26
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downout posted:One company I was in hosed me on vacation when I put in my two weeks and one did me right. It's your call - do you need a good reference from any of them in the future? If not, get your vacation. They'll be fine. Flip side is on day 3 of a 2 week vacation coworker gave notice. He's on my personal do not hire list.
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Dec 1, 2018 03:05
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Hughlander posted:Flip side is on day 3 of a 2 week vacation coworker gave notice. He's on my personal do not hire list. That's perfectly ok. Never give up your vacation days and if it just so happens that the company is lovely enough to only deserve 0 days notice, while you're on vacation, then that's perfectly fine. While Hughlander may hold a grudge, he's one of a billion. It doesn't even make a dent in the margin of error.
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Dec 1, 2018 03:12
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Love Stole the Day posted:I participate a lot in get-a-job chatrooms and communities, like this thread. Last year, in 2017, a guy in one of them who owned a small business took pity on me and offered to give me a few hours of doing some simple things so that I could at least have something to show on my resume as experience (most everything in my experience section is like that, really). He had been giving me a few hours of work per month to do as a 1099 contractor so that I could make it look on my resume like I had at least some kind of current experience. It was for doing simple game development tasks with the Unreal Engine, working on maintaining some old product of theirs that they didn't care much about anymore. This has been going on for a bit over a year now and has been my only source of income. 
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Dec 1, 2018 03:32
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It might be the imperial stout in me, but I have a good feeling about Love Stole the Day's new opportunity. I'd personally hire someone that quit on their vacation although it's not optimal. Sometimes orgs try to gently caress you or things just line up that way, so you gotta take care of yourself. It really takes a lot to get on my Do Not Work With List.
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Dec 1, 2018 03:51
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I feel the clinching factor is how much notice the company has to give you before they fire you. If they can fire you at no notice, it's 100% okay for you to leave at no notice. And it should be noted that this person:Hughlander posted:Flip side is on day 3 of a 2 week vacation coworker gave notice. did not quit with no notice, they quit with 1.5 weeks of notice.
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Dec 1, 2018 11:56
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My last job would pay out any unspent PTO, but only if you gave at least two weeks notice. It's worth a glance through the ol' employee handbook before you do anything drastic.
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Dec 1, 2018 20:05
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Doom Mathematic posted:I feel the clinching factor is how much notice the company has to give you before they fire you. If they can fire you at no notice, it's 100% okay for you to leave at no notice. While this is fair it's not always contractually accurate. I've seen contracts that have different notice periods for employer than employee. You probably want to even them up during negotiation if they're like this.
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Dec 1, 2018 22:56
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Having only worked lovely jobs, I can't realy sympathize with that 'poor job creator who's employee quit on short notice and put them in such a huge bind :eyeroll:' when it's pretty much standard practice fire/layoff people on zero notice and try to gently caress them out of earned PTO hours. (If not their entire final paycheck, had one dumbass try "we pay employees, and you don't work here" once. Didn't work out for him.)
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Dec 2, 2018 07:32
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Asleep Style posted:My last job would pay out any unspent PTO, but only if you gave at least two weeks notice. It's worth a glance through the ol' employee handbook before you do anything drastic. Often worth a short talk with a lawyer. What you describe here doesn't sound legal. (I'm sure it's possible to set something like this up legally but in general in US employment, your vacation-time pay is yours and there's serious penalties for stealing wages from your employees. That's one reason why so many companies switched to "unlimited" vacation time.)
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Dec 2, 2018 18:44
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Mniot posted:Often worth a short talk with a lawyer. What you describe here doesn't sound legal. (I'm sure it's possible to set something like this up legally but in general in US employment, your vacation-time pay is yours and there's serious penalties for stealing wages from your employees. That's one reason why so many companies switched to "unlimited" vacation time.)
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Dec 2, 2018 18:47
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