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SlowBloke posted:Feel free to tar me but shouldn't EU governments phase out diesel like they always did before with car scrapping incentives? Turn in your diesel car and get say 10-20% off your new car? That would be less imposing than a gently caress you tax on diesel like the one France is pushing for. Only the rich (and very stupid people being preyed upon by predatory loan-firms) buy new cars. Normal people buy second-hand or lease if they want to drive new. Trying to find a cheap second-hand non-fossil car is like trying to find an apartment in the average EU metropole, theoretically possible but unattainable for most people. Many countries have tried purchasing incentive schemes but they always end up in the pockets of people who could afford buying new anyway (that is to say mostly urbanites who shouldn't be driving). It's extremely in-effective. quote:The argument that diesel taxes will negatively effect the very poorest should not be an argument against diesel taxes, it should be an argument in favour of using the money raised from diesel taxes to help the poorest. There are plenty of ways to do this were a government so inclined - generous scrappage schemes, income tested help to buy schemes etc. That way you get all of the environmental benefits, while minimizing the economic costs to the poorest parts of society. Try to think for a few seconds why this currently is not what's happening. Where is all that environmental taxation actually going. What shortfall is it making up for in today's average EU government. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Dec 1, 2018 |
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Dec 1, 2018 21:21
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SlowBloke posted:Feel free to tar me but shouldn't EU governments phase out diesel like they always did before with car scrapping incentives? Turn in your diesel car and get say 10-20% off your new car? That would be less imposing than a gently caress you tax on diesel like the one France is pushing for. The people protesting are not the people buying new cars. This would effectively be a subsidy for the middle class and up when the real hardship is felt by the precariat. You scrap your diesel car and get a €2k discount on a €10k car, great now i'm only €8k short. Second hand cars have been rising in price as it is, if you take a few million diesel cars off the road in a short period of time there will certainly be a shortage of used gasoline cars. It's best to just ban diesels from cities. Anyone who can pay for parking in the city can probably afford a new car. And it solves the main issue with diesels (as mentioned local nox and soot pollution).
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Dec 1, 2018 21:21
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NihilismNow posted:It's best to just ban diesels from cities. Anyone who can pay for parking in the city can probably afford a new car. And it solves the main issue with diesels (as mentioned local nox and soot pollution). It really is this simple.
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Dec 1, 2018 21:25
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Blut posted:it should be an argument in favour of using the money raised from diesel taxes to cut taxes for the wealthiest so that it will trickle down. Fixed it for Jupiterian thought. Because lol at the idea of doing anything to help the poorest. You know what they actually do about the poorest? They install automated cold water sprays so that they can't find shelter under a porch. That's the meaning of "society" and "civilization".
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Dec 1, 2018 21:44
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MiddleOne posted:Only the rich (and very stupid people being preyed upon by predatory loan-firms) buy new cars. Normal people buy second-hand or lease if they want to drive new. Trying to find a cheap second-hand non-fossil car is like trying to find an apartment in the average EU metropole, theoretically possible but unattainable for most people. There were over 2mn new cars bought in France last year. There aren't that many rich (or very stupid) people in the country. Plenty of middle class people buy new cars. And its possible to buy used hybrids from about €7500 in France now, and thats going down every year. Sub €5k are only a year or two away. A brand new 2018 hybrid can be bought for €15k. Its completely possible to legislate to ensure help-to-buy schemes don't only benefit the middle class - just place strict income limits on it, and make it far more generous for those who do qualify for it despite them. Traditional scrappage schemes in Europe have been along the lines of €2-3k, but open to anyone - so usually taken up by the middle class. A €10k scrappage scheme that only applied to people earning below X amount would solve the problem completely. Again, the problem here is right wing or neo-liberal governments not doing enough to help mitigate any potential economic damage to the poorest, not the taxes themselves on diesel. quote:Try to think for a few seconds why this currently is not what's happening. Where is all that environmental taxation actually going. What shortfall is it making up for in today's average EU government. Thats not an argument against diesel taxes. Thats an argument against neo-liberal governments.
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Dec 1, 2018 21:55
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AceOfFlames posted:I dont think I am a particularly good engineer tbh. And i cant flash my degree in case some skinhead notices I don’t speak dutch as well as a native and decides to beat me up. lol just stay in the bougie safe spaces
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Dec 1, 2018 22:00
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NihilismNow posted:The people protesting are not the people buying new cars. This would effectively be a subsidy for the middle class and up when the real hardship is felt by the precariat. Second hand cars prices are artificially high(same as the new ones), shortage of cars (used or new) is very unlikely. Second hand car prices have soared for two reasons here, ASI cars(cars over 25 years that could be insured for a pittance and with a very cheap tax rate) and the lack of the old yearly gov car scrapping programs(up only to local admin level and car manifacturers since quite a while). M5s and Lega are trying to start back some programs for that(where they are going to find the funds for is a mystery). Diesel bans won't do jack here since there still a fuckloads of petrol ASI cars/trucks/scooters at Euro0 level (like thousands of Mark1 500 or Vespas) that still do loads of NOx, until they are made into a cube the pollution level will pretty much stay the same. EDIT per  : Mi pare che gli ultimi contributi di rottamazione/ecoincentivi "a pioggia" erano tipo del 2010, dopo han fatto solo il contentino per gpl/metano/elettrico o aziendali. Mi ricordo bene o mi son rincoglionito?
SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 1, 2018 22:01
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Cat Mattress posted:You can't tax rich people or corporations because free movement of capital and so on means that they'll just move their money away to another country to get out of reach. So the only possibility offered to EU member countries is to either: Luckily, the category of "people who do not move" includes a lot of corporations which still allows EU Member States to levy taxes on both the corporation as well as its shareholders. The countries that don't tax those do so because they don't want to, not for lack of ability (Looking at you Luxembourg!)
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Dec 1, 2018 22:20
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Orange Devil posted:Relatedly, I'm so loving done and fed up with the embracing of the neo-liberal individualist worldview by Green parties lately. You don't fix climate change by going after individual consumers, neither with your incentives nor with your pleas. Just a couple of months ago the Dutch Green party asked all of us to take shorter showers to do our part in fighting climate change. No. gently caress you. Shutting down even 1 loving coal plant will do infinitely more than that stereotype-affirming brainfart ever will. It's like the whole "a better environment starts with yourself" bullshit we used to get bombarded with. I didn't cause the loving impending climate catastrophe and I could live like an ascetic and it wouldn't do a goddamn thing to avert it. Implement radical policy changes and literally lay down the law on the actual emitters, aka large private businesses. Once you are actually doing that with some effectiveness we can talk about my showers, or leaving the tap running while brushing my teeth (the subject of an actual loving government ad campaign) or whatever the gently caress. Do your loving jobs before you ask me to do my part. 100% agreed, a worrying number of green parties/movements have lost the plot. This was, however, not entirely unexpected because a key part of many wannabe-environmentalist groups' ideology has been encouraging individual people to live wholesome natural (and therefore allegedly environmentally sustainable) lives. Shaming normies for spending an extra minute in the showers is right up their alley.
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Dec 2, 2018 01:38
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Fuel taxes are also meant to include externalities into car& plane usage costs. And they keep public transport and freight rail competitive and if we remove them lots of cities and highways that are already gridlocked would probably collapse completely from the increases car usage. Also, this isn't 'murica. Poor people/unemployed generally don't own cars and rely on public transport. People who actually need cars for daily life live in small towns or suburbs where public transport is pretty poor and I don't think this thread is in favor of suburban sprawl. I mean, I get that people in France are pissed off about another decade of stagnating real wages and worsening work conditions but fuel taxes are not the root of the problem and lowering them is gonna do much more harm than good.
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Dec 2, 2018 09:26
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SlowBloke posted:Second hand cars prices are artificially high(same as the new ones), shortage of cars (used or new) is very unlikely. Second hand car prices have soared for two reasons here, ASI cars(cars over 25 years that could be insured for a pittance and with a very cheap tax rate) and the lack of the old yearly gov car scrapping programs(up only to local admin level and car manifacturers since quite a while). M5s and Lega are trying to start back some programs for that(where they are going the funds for is a mystery). They used to have the 25 years law here but then everyone started importing old Mercedes 190D's so they scrapped that rule. All the old cars dissapeared. The emissions control zones could also include old Euro 0 gasoline cars. The one in Rotterdam did until a judge struck it down, but it will be back.
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Dec 2, 2018 09:58
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I mean, I get that people in France are pissed off about another decade of stagnating real wages and worsening work conditions but fuel taxes are not the root of the problem and lowering them is gonna do much more harm than good. You can't hike VAT on people already suffering from what you describe, how do you not get this. They can't stop buying fuel, whether they want to or not.  Also no one is talking about plane fuel taxes (plane demand is extremely elastic and is a good example of something that should be hit through VAT) and no one is talking about decreasing current fuel taxes. The argument is that they shouldn't have been raised further. Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Also, this isn't 'murica. Poor people/unemployed generally don't own cars and rely on public transport. People who actually need cars for daily life live in small towns or suburbs where public transport is pretty poor and I don't think this thread is in favor of suburban sprawl. Have you ever actually lived on the European countryside? Once you go below medium density people get increasingly car dependent, and that's true no matter how many railways and bus lines you'd build. For example, people who commute to trains by car, and family households in density too poor for relying on buses for all needs. Europe is urbanised but it's not urbanised enough that this is a small group, we're talking almost a 4th of the population of France for example. This group is also not the predominant users of cars nominally speaking, people living in the outskirts of high-density urban centers are (because they can afford to drive a lot). Guess which group is lower middle class and feels the pinch from getting hit by a VAT hike on one of their primary household goods. Also lol fuel taxes are not a way to adjust suburban sprawl what is wrong with you. Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:And they keep public transport and freight rail competitive and if we remove them lots of cities and highways that are already gridlocked would probably collapse completely from the increases car usage. Then put up congestion taxes within the city limits. Externalities priced and car usage decreased. Doing it through VAT is just loving stupid. Regressive taxes on inelastic goods have consequences, it's time people start realizing that. EDIT: I mentioned it yesterday and I'll mention it again. Banning cars from where they should not be (like cities) and stopping the flow of new fossil vehicles into the supply should be the priority, not more useless nudging with real household consequences for small groups. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 09:59
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SlowBloke posted:Second hand cars prices are artificially high(same as the new ones), shortage of cars (used or new) is very unlikely. Second hand car prices have soared for two reasons here, ASI cars(cars over 25 years that could be insured for a pittance and with a very cheap tax rate) and the lack of the old yearly gov car scrapping programs(up only to local admin level and car manifacturers since quite a while). M5s and Lega are trying to start back some programs for that(where they are going the funds for is a mystery). Well, Rome has banned circulation of all vehicles with no Euro rating within the more central part, except for scooters who can just do whatever the gently caress they want, and vans also? I see a lot of vans that definitely are old enough to be married and have little van children running around the centre. Also we have 'eco-Sundays' which is like twice a year where only Euro6 and above can circulate (with all the exceptions of course that make this a meaningless measure in the end), which is quite lol all in all. We did experiment for a while with other circulation limits, but Rome has been doing jack poo poo for air pollution for a while now. Also yeah, incentives hosed right off like 8 years ago, and by now they are special start of the year offers by private companies usually, especially for tradeins afaik.
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Dec 2, 2018 10:15
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MiddleOne posted:You can't hike VAT on people already suffering from what you describe, how do you not get this. They can't stop buying fuel, whether they want to or not. Two wrongs don't make a right. Car usage and ownership has massively gone up over the last decades to a point where we are now at something like 60+ mio cars in Germany. That's probably one car per adult German. It's insane and it's not sustainable and France has probably an even worse situation. Private car usage has to become a lot less attractive, there is no way around it and the only people who can reduce car usage are the one that create car usage. Measures like improving bike infrastructure, blocking car access to city centers, etc. only had a slowing effect on the growth at best. They are not working.
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Dec 2, 2018 10:47
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Fuel taxes are not working. They've been tried extensively for decades. If you want to stop fossil fuel from being consumed by cars the long-term path is obvious. Stop the sale of new fossil cars and let the old fleets die out naturally, which will take just a little over a decade. Environmental policy is to large degree a joke in the EU because we keep skirting around that actually decreasing our reliance on fossil fuels would kill Germany's auto dominated economy. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 10:51
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Just a disclaimer on my perspective: I don't own a car anymore but I come from a working class Russian family where buying a car is considered a fundamental right of passage and people are genuinely confused when you tell them that you don't want one anymore. They look at me like I'm gay or something. So, yeah, I hear a LOT of complaining about fuel taxes and how the government should be catching pedophiles instead of needlessly terrorizing hard working citizens with fuel taxes. Every single one of my relatives could reduce their car use with only a minor decease in "life quality". Selling an unnecessary second car, car pooling, using public transport more, planning shopping trips better, going on vacations by train, switching to a cheaper/smaller car, etc. and I genuinely believe that the only thing that would ever motivate them to do that are monetary incentives. Also, phasing out fossil fuel usage out of personal transport is not gonna help the situation in any way. The pollution will only be marginally decreased and it will do nothing about congestion
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Dec 2, 2018 11:13
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Forcible relocate everyone into the cities, except for people directly supporting agricultural production, and turn as much land as possible into national parks. Ban any vehicle powered by fossil fuels.
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Dec 2, 2018 11:25
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Fuel taxes are also meant to include externalities into car& plane usage costs. You realise that fuel taxes for planes are really really loving low to keep planes competitive in reality?
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Dec 2, 2018 11:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Forcible relocate everyone into the cities, except for people directly supporting agricultural production, and turn as much land as possible into national parks. Ban any vehicle powered by fossil fuels. 
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Dec 2, 2018 11:29
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suck my woke dick posted:You realise that fuel taxes for planes are really really loving low to keep planes competitive in reality? No, I totally believe you could fly from Frankfurt to London for 22€ with all externalities priced in. A Buttery Pastry posted:Forcible relocate everyone into the cities, except for people directly supporting agricultural production, and turn as much land as possible into national parks. Ban any vehicle powered by fossil fuels. Yeah, this. But not forcible but through the wallet.
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Dec 2, 2018 11:31
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I'll move to the city as soon as they make living in the city affordable
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Dec 2, 2018 11:43
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Andrast posted:I'll move to the city as soon as they make living in the city affordable stop being poor citizen
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Dec 2, 2018 11:49
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Forcible relocate everyone into the cities, except for people directly supporting agricultural production, and turn as much land as possible into national parks. Ban any vehicle powered by fossil fuels. e: too harsh, just gently caress you will do. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 12:01
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MiddleOne posted:Fuel taxes are not working. They've been tried extensively for decades. "letting the old fleets die out naturally" would take closer to 25 years. Its not a viable option. Fuel taxes work, and work immediately. Studies have shown that in Europe a 10% rise in diesel prices reduces consumption by 6-8%. The reason they haven't fully worked yet in Europe is because the tax increases haven't been high enough. If governments start adding 10c/year to diesel prices you can be sure diesel usage will plummet, rapidly.
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Dec 2, 2018 13:23
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Forcible relocate everyone into the cities, except for people directly supporting agricultural production, and turn as much land as possible into national parks. Ban any vehicle powered by fossil fuels. This is unironically a better plan than what we're actually doing. Which says a lot about what we're doing.
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Dec 2, 2018 14:33
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Orange Devil posted:Some people are protesting in NL now too. A spokeswoman on the radio yesterday listed their demands: In the east they were additionally protesting (according to their online supporters) against immigration and for Black Pete.
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Dec 2, 2018 14:40
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People immigrate towards the east?
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Dec 2, 2018 14:42
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Orange Devil posted:People immigrate towards the east? Well not specifically, but when did a proper knucklehead ever get deterred by reality? Being scared of foreigners does negatively correlate with being exposed to them, after all. But all that aside, towns like Enschede and Nijmegen do see their fair share of immigrants simply by virtue of attracting thousands and thousands of international students, even after discounting all the Germans who move over from across the border. Internationals often report trouble getting into Dutch clubs and social circles, so you have a number of cool and good expat associations. If you set that against the size of these cities you can see why these demographics are so visible: the universities and associated startup centers and connected institutes are about as big as the rest of the city proper. And thus some parts of these towns feel just as cosmopolitan as the big cities. If you get all  about foreign people and their weird exotic food that has spices in it yeah you might not like that. (I think the best thing that I've heard was a gammon accusing foreign PhD students accusing them of just coming to the Netherlands to claim glorious benefits -- from Germany and Norway of all places)
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Dec 2, 2018 14:54
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Forcible relocate everyone into the cities, except for people directly supporting agricultural production, and turn as much land as possible into national parks. Ban any vehicle powered by fossil fuels. Also please bring back Brutalism
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Dec 2, 2018 14:55
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:where buying a car is considered a fundamental right of passage Nice stealth pun
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Dec 2, 2018 15:05
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Just a disclaimer on my perspective: I don't own a car anymore but I come from a working class Russian family where buying a car is considered a fundamental right of passage and people are genuinely confused when you tell them that you don't want one anymore. They look at me like I'm gay or something. So, yeah, I hear a LOT of complaining about fuel taxes and how the government should be catching pedophiles instead of needlessly terrorizing hard working citizens with fuel taxes. No offense, but I think I'd rather have Borsch with your family than you.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:10
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My solution is to have the exhaust pipe go through the driver's cockpit before it goes outside. It won't solve anything but it'll at least teach those fuckers who sit there with the engine idling in their jeep while doing a loving crossword at the park. The exhaust pipe is at dog and cat level you assholes.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:21
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Tesseraction posted:The exhaust pipe is at dog and cat level you assholes.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:32
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Blut posted:Fuel taxes work, and work immediately. Studies have shown that in Europe a 10% rise in diesel prices reduces consumption by 6-8%. The reason they haven't fully worked yet in Europe is because the tax increases haven't been high enough. If governments start adding 10c/year to diesel prices you can be sure diesel usage will plummet, rapidly. Yes if we dramatically hike prices on stuff to the point where no one can afford it I'm sure it will be more expensive. You're one hell of an economist. Problem is that fuel is for many people an inelastic demand, which means the thresholds needed to make most people stop purchasing it is extremely high. For many people fuel, like food and shelter, is something they have few options to avoid needing. For someone who needs a car to get to work, no price hike except one that eats their entire disposable income will make them stop driving. Because without fuel there is no income. Similarly, for someone with poor access to public transit the cost would have to be enormous to make them give up 3-6 hours a day, because time also has an opportunity cost. And before you say 'why do they just not move to places with good transit', transit options are heavily correlated to land value which is heavy correlated to the cost of purchasing or renting a home. In our economic system people to a large degree are not in full control of their circumstances. You portray it like there is no consequence to just hiking costs indefinitely while at the same time populism is at an all time high. Do you honestly not see the contradiction. 1/4th of France lives rurally, these are the people on the very end of the inelasticity curve and they're the ones disproportionally paying for fuel taxes on a household level. We've introduced fuel taxes, they've accomplished very little and we need to look at other options. Blut posted:"letting the old fleets die out naturally" would take closer to 25 years. Its not a viable option. By year 10 over half of the fleet would already be on the brink of scrapping or already scrapped. Adding to which that such a policy would never happen in a vacuum and would be complemented for example both by policies decreasing incentives for driving and subsidizing transition of the fleet. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 15:38
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MiddleOne posted:And before you say 'why do they just not move to places with good transit', transit options are heavily correlated to land value which is heavy correlated to the cost of purchasing or renting a home. In our economic system people to a large degree are not in full control of their circumstances. Yes, adding to that, housing affordability is a really loving important factor. Italy pretty much is slumlord-central, we have almost 0 public housing and it's means-tested, to the point where you have to be unable to provide basic necessities for yourself. I remember reading that pretty much the only country in Europe with a non-profit led rental sector is the Netherlands, so good luck forcing people to move into more 'environmentally friendly' housing that they can't loving afford because of the for-profit rental market. If you want to force people to move places where they have metro and transit you have two options: building more metro to reach them, or having housing they can afford. Of course, none of those are on the table because muh markets and individual preferences etc, and also because they are gigantically costly investments and require a level of taxation, especially on the upper brackets, far higher than what those same brackets are willing to accept and they take years, a few of them for extending light transit, upwards of 10 (at least 20 in Italy) for more metro or more public housing. So that's another part of why it's such a mockery to raise fuel taxes on people living in the suburbs with no compensation.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:48
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Austria I think is the only country in Europe with a still functioning housing system not broken by decades of neoliberalism (doubt that'll last long though).
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Dec 2, 2018 15:50
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Yeah about that. We have a prince who turns out to own half of Amsterdam and runs it like a slumlord. So... Also housing prices have skyrocketed in all the places people actually want to live because landlordism is at an all time high. We do still have social housing but it has large waiting lists. The waiting lists mainly exist due to privatisation of municipal housing stock plus governments not building social housing to keep up with demand for decades now. Furthermore, in accordance with international treaties recognised refugees get to skip the waiting lists. Guess where people are focusing their anger at? Hint: it's not the government refusing to do it's loving job for decades. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 15:51
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MiddleOne posted:Austria I think is the only country in Europe with a still functioning housing system not broken by decades of neoliberalism (doubt that'll last long though). However, it's also full of fash, so in summary the desirability of living there is a land of contrasts
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Dec 2, 2018 15:52
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Lord Stimperor posted:Also please bring back Brutalism Yes. What happened to the architecture thread? Archived? Shame.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:58
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suck my woke dick posted:However, it's also full of fash, so in summary the desirability of living there is a land of contrasts Yeah that is what I was referring to in my last comment.
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Dec 2, 2018 16:01
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