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ToastyPotato posted:Kure (HGC player) was pretty hard on the changes as well. He felt it basically trivialized all of the strategy and tactics of higher level play and that it was actually counter intuitive for high level play because taking forts can legit be worse for your team. And this was after several scrims. He conceded that it was still only the first day, but still, he didn't like the changes at all. could someone explain why taking forts would be bad?
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Dec 4, 2018 22:47
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Kerrzhe posted:could someone explain why taking forts would be bad? Because you risk missing out on the vastly buffed camp and lane xp for very little gain
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Dec 4, 2018 22:51
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Plus it pushes the lane out farther, making it harder and riskier to soak xp.
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Dec 4, 2018 23:20
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Bogart posted:Whoever on the team that thinks group fights should be the end all be all sucks rear end. 
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Dec 4, 2018 23:25
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Kerrzhe posted:could someone explain why taking forts would be bad? It gives the opposing team an advantageous position by moving the natural wave clash point up towards their keep and the XP changes mean you didn't gain anything except for a catapult minion which only compounds the effect even more. To put it another way, if you destroy the fort and your enemy understands lane mechanics beyond blindly pushing they can easily stall the lane right near the keep and farm it for continual XP. If you want to get XP from that lane you have to be near it which means you have to go deep into the enemy side of the map and risk a huge positioning disadvantage where you could be easily ganked or caught off guard.
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Dec 4, 2018 23:26
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Devil's advocate: You were already ahead when you had the opportunity to remove a fort from the lane, and removing a fort and pushing that lane further up gives you more map control for objectives.
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Dec 4, 2018 23:44
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Polio Vax Scene posted:Devil's advocate: You were already ahead when you had the opportunity to remove a fort from the lane, and removing a fort and pushing that lane further up gives you more map control for objectives. Do objectives give big XP? You can probably take a fort and actually be down levels now. Specifically on a map where the objective can snipe forts for you, it ends up being risky to even go for the objective if you are even one level behind. Before, you could rely on one good objective push to catch up assuming you took a building or two down with it, now, if you are behind, on levels, taking down their forts just makes it harder for you to catch up, not to mention the risk of team fighting down a level or 2 for the objective in the first place. It's funny because on one hand, they made changes to emphasize big team fights over the past year or so, but with just this one change, they ended up almost gutting the biggest reason for team fights (objectives and pushing toward core) and ended up I guess moving them to fighting over mercs? I assume the only way to play aggressively now is to only ever push one lane and then dominate the other two to deny soak? So they get easy soak on the pushed lane, but you are denying two lanes worth and you have to be able to steal at least one camp as well I suppose.
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Dec 5, 2018 00:03
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Polio Vax Scene posted:Devil's advocate: You were already ahead when you had the opportunity to remove a fort from the lane, and removing a fort and pushing that lane further up gives you more map control for objectives. There can and definitely is an advantage in destroying enemy structures to give you more room to work during objectives and teamfights...the most basic example of this is killing enemy wells so they don't have a convenient way to break off and heal during pitched battles over objectives...but the actual implementation of this revision currently being rolled out seems practically tailored to create nothing but perverse incentives with regard to weighing the value of objectives versus ignoring those objectives to secure an XP lead elsewhere, and if anything the advantages of taking structures is now reduced compared to what it currently is/was. If they wanted to do something about "snowballing" they could have probably accomplished it by tweaking the XP values based on level or something along those lines, but these changes seem really wrongheaded and I don't expect Blizzard to course-correct anytime soon. It's not a recent thing either, I remember Jeff Kaplan adamantly insisting, with various degrees of passive-aggression, that Symmetra is totally a support you guys, just because she doesn't heal or do anything you'd expect a support to do based on every other support hero she still belongs in that category, until years later she finally got consolidated into the DPS category with the rest of the damage dealing non-healers where you'd expect her to be in the first place.
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Dec 5, 2018 00:10
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Hey that applies to HotS too, where they similarly refused to have a healer role despite every support except Tass being a healer.
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Dec 5, 2018 00:23
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ToastyPotato posted:Hey that applies to HotS too, where they similarly refused to have a healer role despite every support except Tass being a healer. I mean I could sort of squint and see Tass as a "healer" in that his shields give you healing when you attack with them, which is more supporting than Symmetra ever did outside of the period in the Overwatch beta where she could give everyone a permanent 75 regenerating overhealth. Tass is definitely the Symmetra of HotS in that he seems like a jumble of abilities and ideas just sort of smushed together into a character, and honestly he'd be near the top of my rework priority list if I ran the circus.
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Dec 5, 2018 00:39
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Didn't Aba do more healing despite not being listed as support?
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Dec 5, 2018 00:42
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ToastyPotato posted:Didn't Aba do more healing despite not being listed as support? He very well might have! Which is almost certainly the reason his healing output just got a recent nerf, because at high-level play strong Abathur players are a huge force multiplier being able to to heal, splitsoak, siege, and contribute in teamfights all in one package.
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Dec 5, 2018 00:53
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Tbh, I would have preferred they completely removed Aba's heals, and perhaps buff his shielding to compensate as needed.
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Dec 5, 2018 01:00
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ToastyPotato posted:Tbh, I would have preferred they completely removed Aba's heals, and perhaps buff his shielding to compensate as needed. On the one hand I could see that working, on the other hand please don't give people more excuses to pick Survival Instincts at level 1.
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Dec 5, 2018 01:02
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Honestly I'd also be happy with aba as a global support thing also with more focus on healing/hat
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Dec 5, 2018 01:05
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fool_of_sound posted:Honestly I'd also be happy with aba as a global support thing also with more focus on healing/hat I mean, if they made him a full on healer, with healing being fully baked into the hat, then I would also be ok with that. I just do not like the idea of a non-support/healer, who has a talent that can make him a healer.
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Dec 5, 2018 01:14
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I just experienced Peak Brawl. Their team: Probius Li-Ming Kael'Thas Falstad Zagara vs. my team: Lucio Anub'arak Sgt. Hammer Sgt. Hammer Sgt. Hammer Elysium fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Dec 5, 2018 |
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Dec 5, 2018 03:16
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They removed haunted mines from the map pool because they were planning to remake the entire game to just function like haunted mines ignore objective get mercs soak lines
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Dec 5, 2018 03:18
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BattleHamster posted:It gives the opposing team an advantageous position by moving the natural wave clash point up towards their keep and the XP changes mean you didn't gain anything except for a catapult minion which only compounds the effect even more. Fishboi's Advocate: What if your death doesn't matter and you in fact live for death. The Age of Murky comes again.
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Dec 5, 2018 04:19
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OK, blizzard. We are ready for hots mobile.
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Dec 5, 2018 06:22
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So is this game actually hosed or is the 2018 brain setting in
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Dec 5, 2018 08:29
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I think they might have completely cooked it. I think the one good thing they have done so far that’s not a new hero is make the globes collectable for both teams after a short time. Everything else has made the game worse
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Dec 5, 2018 08:37
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Also Genji is responsible for about 60% of me not really wanting to play this game
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Dec 5, 2018 08:37
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Rexicon1 posted:So is this game actually hosed or is the 2018 brain setting in I think it's a little bit of both. People have a tendency to be extremely apocalyptic over any changes and declare that it will spell the end of the game, see e.g. the ammo changes. But these changes do seem way too hasty and not really thought through, like the new fort catapults being very undertuned. Hopefully Blizz listens and either make some modifications in line with what Rich and other people have suggested or simply waits to implement them and rethink.
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Dec 5, 2018 10:04
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Schneider Inside Her posted:I think they might have completely cooked it. I think the one good thing they have done so far that’s not a new hero is make the globes collectable for both teams after a short time. Everything else has made the game worse My own personal take is I'm indifferent to positive to most of the changes made up to this point. I don't really miss the tower ammo minigame or feel it added an incredible layer of tactical depth, globe changes as you mentioned are nice, the stealth changes are overall not that big a deal...if you were a good Zeratul player before you can definitely still be a good Zeratul player now, Nova's still Nova, etc...balance aside I can't think of a hero rework that I dislike, and the reworked Hanamura and Garden of Terror are both improvements imo. I get some snowball-y stomps yeah, but I also get close games. I don't even really consider Genji and Tracer to be all that annoying anymore to be honest. These changes don't seem that great though and I'm not predicting they'll improve the game much. If it turns out to suck like it looks like it is, oh well, I've got a Steam backlog.
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Dec 5, 2018 10:09
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dBApOQWMkg
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Dec 5, 2018 12:21
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Rexicon1 posted:So is this game actually hosed or is the 2018 brain setting in HOTS will live if they walk back the XP changes, but if they don't then the meta is going to shift drastically - and most likely in a direction that the majority of players will find unacceptable.
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Dec 5, 2018 13:46
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Last time I played this game was the release of Tracer. Should I get back into it or is it so completely unrecognizable that I would just be baffled forever?
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Dec 5, 2018 17:16
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Easy Diff posted:Last time I played this game was the release of Tracer. Should I get back into it or is it so completely unrecognizable that I would just be baffled forever? I'd go so far as to say that the game has gotten better since Tracer's release, but there's a change coming to XP on the horizon which is widely considered to be a mistake by everyone who's talked about it so far. Usually Blizzard is pretty good about listening to massive amounts of negative feedback, but sometimes they say "gently caress it, we know better than you" and torpedo things for giggles anyways. I honestly wouldn't recommend Nu-XP HOTS unless you're a hardcore Blizzard fanboy.
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Dec 5, 2018 17:41
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Hopefully the big changes sit on PTR for a while because throwing them on live right before the long holiday breaks most companies take would suck
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Dec 5, 2018 17:44
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The HOTS team isnt anywhere near as stubborn as the WoW team and I'll be blown away if these changes make it live.
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Dec 5, 2018 17:49
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Twitter thread from Math of the Storm writer breaking down his thoughts/criticisms of the new XP system: https://twitter.com/ChaosOS_59/status/1069984388174102528
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Dec 5, 2018 18:00
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Reducing merc timers feels like such a hack. If the game is just going to become BHB then at least make mercs more interesting and make more of them. Alterac did the opposite with one puny merc camp on each side with a timer so short it feels like a glitch.
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Dec 5, 2018 18:11
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ToastyPotato posted:Twitter thread from Math of the Storm writer breaking down his thoughts/criticisms of the new XP system: https://twitter.com/ChaosOS_59/status/1069984388174102528 I wish blizz actually had a guy like him on the team who shows he's thinking things through and not just making completely random looking changes to things
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Dec 5, 2018 18:20
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I just have to assume that this change was made to cater specifically to the casual QM/vs AI/lower level mmr crowd and that the devs are reversing course from focusing on pro level play. Esports has probably had very little returns for HotS so I can see them trying to make the game less stompy for the masses, which also explains the timing of the QM changes and new role definitions. The problem is, a huge amount of public faces for HotS, who aren't esports pros, plus all of the ones who are, don't seem to like the changes themselves, and losing them would be very bad for HotS. I only really got into this game because of streams. Hell every time I take a break and come back, it is because of streams and to a lesser extent, youtube.
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Dec 5, 2018 18:30
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I just read the Sylv changes and I hate them? Like they seem to have just made her less interesting
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Dec 5, 2018 20:00
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I'm still surprised they kept even some part of her trait because they've mentioned several times that her ability to lock-down structures has given them difficulty designing maps around her
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Dec 5, 2018 20:40
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Blizzard just released a comment about the XP Changes.quote:Hello Heroes -
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Dec 5, 2018 20:43
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When have they ever released a feature that went badly during a holiday season? I for one feel confident.
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Dec 5, 2018 20:46
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What should I do to get used to all the new characters? Play a few vs AI/Easy games to remind myself of the controls?
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Dec 5, 2018 20:47
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