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joat mon posted:Why limit yourself to Christianity? This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
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Dec 4, 2018 02:41
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HEY GUNS posted:the only dude itt who has read all of origen took a sacred vow to Mary to get off social media so we can't get the verdict on whether he thought we will become empyrean doughnut holes when we die those are two mighty deeds, and I hope he enjoys the fruits of them.  (but I also think I wouldn’t mind being an empyrean doughnut hole)
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Dec 4, 2018 02:43
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CountFosco posted:I just popped in to see how things were developing, I'm heading back out. I still hold views that, were I to express them, I would be seen by this community as evil. I think it's pretty remarkable that what was a thread ostensibly about Christianity is now "religionthread." "Religionthread" is exactly the sort of blandification of society that is the logical end-game of globalization and neoliberalism. Not wanting to upset the peace and order of the thread, I'll now show myself the door. I don't recall thinking your views are evil. Parochial, maybe, and not warm with Christ-light. But I pray that you get there.
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Dec 4, 2018 03:42
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CountFosco posted:I just popped in to see how things were developing, I'm heading back out. I still hold views that, were I to express them, I would be seen by this community as evil. I think it's pretty remarkable that what was a thread ostensibly about Christianity is now "religionthread." "Religionthread" is exactly the sort of blandification of society that is the logical end-game of globalization and neoliberalism. Not wanting to upset the peace and order of the thread, I'll now show myself the door. HEY GUNS posted:tolerance, prosperity, many races living together, and the minimization of war: horrifying. This is not fair to yourselves or the rest of the thread, and I say this as one who holds views contrary to most of this community. We all lose when an honest contributor goes silent.
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Dec 4, 2018 15:59
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I have no knowledge of what the count's opinions are and it's sadly amusing that criticizing globalization and neoliberalism doesn't narrow it down. But if they are disagreeing with this forum, I can guess that they might not be taking thee Leftist critique of those things. As somebody with ostensibly right wing views on most things, I think this thread is the most accepting place on this entire forum. This forum being pretty crazy and hard Left, right down to cheering when Republicans get attacked and nearly killed. (granted, in 2017, I felt that same savage satisfaction at what happened to him, too. I'm not proud of it) This thread and its predecessors have never been judgmental any time I've wandered in.
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Dec 4, 2018 16:47
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the thing i had a real problem with is when senju attacked me personally, because gently caress that countfosco left on his own (and called me a communist lol) when i said some of his opinions were racist and slatestarcodex/the lesswrong people were racists.
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Dec 4, 2018 17:08
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NikkolasKing posted:I have no knowledge of what the count's opinions are and it's sadly amusing that criticizing globalization and neoliberalism doesn't narrow it down. But if they are disagreeing with this forum, I can guess that they might not be taking thee Leftist critique of those things. I don't think this thread is particularly leftist. There are real radical leftist strains of Christianity and I don't think we really have much of that represented here. As a whole we probably lean fairly conservative on liturgical issues and on other stuff it's all over the place. We do have a lot of active LGBTQ posters, that's probably the easiest "political" subject to piss people off about. As long as you're respectful and aware of your audience you're probably not going to rile up the LGBTQ crew just by having different opinions and beliefs, though.
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Dec 4, 2018 17:20
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i changed the name of this thread so someone in the classics thread who was knowledgeable about syncretic religion could come here and post and they STILL have not done so
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Dec 4, 2018 17:41
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Worthleast posted:This is not fair to yourselves or the rest of the thread, and I say this as one who holds views contrary to most of this community. We all lose when an honest contributor goes silent. We do lose when an honest contributor goes silent, but we also don't need to provide a forum for racism or for "cultures need to maintain their diversity" and "it's too easy to travel and as a result people don't stay with the communities they're born into". I appreciate that disagreeing with many of the thread regulars hasn't gotten me kicked out, or yelled at, or shamed - nobody got mad at me for, "Well, if you don't like teaching a, b, or c, maybe you could opt to neither defend them nor disagree with them publicly," for example. But I think if someone came in saying "Marcion was right, the Jews' tribal deity isn't our god and the Old Testament is bad" we wouldn't respond with, "Your honest contribution to discussion is very interesting." Would we? (For that matter, CountFosco, you could consider neither defending nor publicly disagreeing with your church's views on tolerance and many people living together, and posting in response to other things in the thread, you know.)
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Dec 4, 2018 17:43
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i think if someone itt legitimately did not like huge silk robes and ludicrous hats i would have to have a lie-down
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Dec 4, 2018 17:47
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:those are two mighty deeds, and I hope he enjoys the fruits of them.
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Dec 4, 2018 17:56
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I am distraught that Religionthread: the only dude itt who has read all of origen took a sacred vow to Mary to get off social media so we can't get the verdict on whether he thought we will become empyrean doughnut holes when we die is too long a title, because it is pure E: HEY GUNS posted:i think if someone itt legitimately did not like huge silk robes and ludicrous hats i would have to have a lie-down Ludicrous hats are a thread uniter, but I'm not sure about the silk robes. How are you all about heavy furs? Tias fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 18:30
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Last night I ate something about as close to empyrean doughnut holes as I expect to find in this life — sufganiyah at my first ever Hanukkah dinner, surrounded by joyful strangers and the sudden and inexplicable appearance of a brass band covered in strings of lights and playing Hava Nagila. If that shared joy is how people tend to experience communion within their religious communities on holidays, I really understand the appeal now. It was the exact opposite of the alienating experiences I’ve generally had. There were little kids squirming around everywhere and all sorts of different folks enjoying an intensely loving one time, one meeting phenomenon I’ve only been part of when sitting for tea. I feel blessed that I was welcomed to partake.
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Dec 4, 2018 19:06
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HEY GUNS posted:i think if someone itt legitimately did not like huge silk robes and ludicrous hats i would have to have a lie-down I don't want to break anyone's heart here but now that you directly called that out, I'll confess that while they look nice, I wouldn't want any in our church. Whenever I see a bishop with their mitre and crosier, it always strikes to me as unnecessarily fancy and pompous and improper. Thankfully they barely ever use them. Sorry. 
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Dec 4, 2018 20:18
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I still want this thread to be called ReligionTrek.
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Dec 4, 2018 20:18
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HEY GUNS posted:i think if someone itt legitimately did not like huge silk robes and ludicrous hats i would have to have a lie-down The Orthodox/Mennonite Venn Diagram is not favorable on the huge silk robe front but there's some promise on the ludicrous hats front.
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Dec 4, 2018 20:19
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Valiantman posted:I don't want to break anyone's heart here but now that you directly called that out, I'll confess that while they look nice, I wouldn't want any in our church. Whenever I see a bishop with their mitre and crosier, it always strikes to me as unnecessarily fancy and pompous and improper. Thankfully they barely ever use them. I need an adult.
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Dec 4, 2018 20:22
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Worthleast posted:I need an adult. Shhh. Shhh. Here, just stroke this velvet and sniff this incense until you feel better.
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Dec 4, 2018 20:25
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Tias posted:I am distraught that Religionthread: the only dude itt who has read all of origen took a sacred vow to Mary to get off social media so we can't get the verdict on whether he thought we will become empyrean doughnut holes when we die is too long a title, because it is pure I have felt for years that Wicca needs better hats. I am entitled to wear an unadorned circlet if I'm running ritual but that really doesn't cut it! I do have a 'for special' robe of white raw silk but that's really not what people think of when they think of silk. Duponier moire silk though, hrrrrrrg.
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Dec 4, 2018 20:48
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Epicurius posted:Shhh. Shhh. Here, just stroke this velvet and sniff this incense until you feel better.
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Dec 4, 2018 20:48
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zonohedron posted:We do lose when an honest contributor goes silent, but we also don't need to provide a forum for racism or for "cultures need to maintain their diversity" and "it's too easy to travel and as a result people don't stay with the communities they're born into". I appreciate that disagreeing with many of the thread regulars hasn't gotten me kicked out, or yelled at, or shamed - nobody got mad at me for, "Well, if you don't like teaching a, b, or c, maybe you could opt to neither defend them nor disagree with them publicly," for example. But I think if someone came in saying "Marcion was right, the Jews' tribal deity isn't our god and the Old Testament is bad" we wouldn't respond with, "Your honest contribution to discussion is very interesting." Would we? I admit to honest confusion as to why that viewpoint is couched in religious discussion at all. We are thousands of years late to go back to humans as isolated tribes, and to get a little leftist, even being able to stay your whole life in the community you are born into is incredible privilege in a western world where migration to adapt to the vagaries of late stage capitalism is often necessary for survival.
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Dec 4, 2018 20:53
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Liquid Communism posted:We are thousands of years late to go back to humans as isolated tribes, and to get a little leftist, even being able to stay your whole life in the community you are born into is incredible privilege in a western world where migration to adapt to the vagaries of late stage capitalism is often necessary for survival. as a historian: people were on the move a LOT during the early modern period, we just don't think that they were. the entire dichotomy between a gemeinschaft, (warm, caring, harmonious, characterized by personal interactions and face-to-face relationships with people you know) and a gesellschaft (cold, atomized, anonymous, individualistic, characterized by impersonal interactions and formal laws) is bunk that romanticizes the past. Cops used drawings to track suspects through cities full of people that didn't know them as early as the 12th century. Paper ID started appearing at around this time as well. Peter Laslett and his study group were shocked to find out how much population turnover there was in early modern English towns. Even if CountFosco's wishes were ethical they're based on a view of the past that is factually incorrect. Those quaint little villages you think of when you think "traditional culture" are populated by the descendants of migrants, and their adorable folk costumes were probably invented in the 19th century (which is when they started making enough textiles to support dressing like that). Their folktales were not only recorded in the late 18th/early 19th centuries, they may have been deliberately doctored at that time to make the listeners more xenophobic by framing existing stories as battles between good and evil. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 21:12
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And here I thought the Internet ensures a degree of separation. True, we can now talk to anyone anywhere on the Planet but it's all from a distance and thus you no longer even need to go from Here to Thereto interact with other cultures. Plus there's been all kinds of studies and stuff since Trump's election that have documented the problem of online echo chambers. Used to be back in the day if you had an unorthodox belief you might have to keep it to yourself or just share it with close friends. Now you can reach out of your physical community and join an e-community where you can all talk about how the Earth is flat or something. Or, more positively, you can find people accepting of your sexuality online where they were absent in your personal life. It's very much a case of how the marketplace of ideas can both help and hurt. Speaking a somebody who has always looked to the past in not exactly the idealized way Conservatives do but still more fondly and romantically than Leftists like, largely to try and make sense of how chaotic everything in the modern world feels, I can sympathize with wanting to put the genie back in the bottle. But as i said, a lot of good has come out of progress along with a lot of bad. I don't know what the solution is to make more good come and eradicate the bad. I've been trying to figure that out ever since I was a teenager. Incidentally, speaking of Left and Right Christianity, what do you all think of Tolstoy and Dostoevsky? It seems remarkable to me two such legendary Russian Christian thinkers could come about at the same time and express such polar opposite views. Tolstoy is pretty much associated with the Far Left and anarchism. Dostoevsky is a conservative darling. Tolstoy had his radical, liberal, personal Christianity and Dostoevsky was all for the necessity of the Orthodox Church so far as I know. I just got one of Tolstoy's books off Audible - "What I Believe" - because it sounded interesting and was like 50 cents.
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Dec 4, 2018 21:35
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NikkolasKing posted:Speaking a somebody who has always looked to the past in not exactly the idealized way Conservatives do but still more fondly and romantically than Leftists like, largely to try and make sense of how chaotic everything in the modern world feels, I can sympathize with wanting to put the genie back in the bottle.
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Dec 4, 2018 21:39
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this is digressing mostly out of religion but have either of you read james scott? be interested in your takes
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Dec 4, 2018 22:16
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NikkolasKing posted:Speaking a somebody who has always looked to the past in not exactly the idealized way Conservatives do but still more fondly and romantically than Leftists like, largely to try and make sense of how chaotic everything in the modern world feels, I can sympathize with wanting to put the genie back in the bottle. I'm reminded of what Tuxedo Catfish said about how insecurity drives intolerance. In that light, I'm moved to pity more than to contempt for the intolerant individual, even if I can't fully let my guard down around the intolerance because of the harm it does to the vulnerable. I don't know Count Fosco well, but I remember feeling that he had long-held bitter resentments that I don't wish on him, the kind of resentments that the body of Christ seeks to console and transform.
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Dec 4, 2018 22:50
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https://twitter.com/joecarter/status/1069621235229884416 Edit: check out the first response to that post as well.
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Dec 5, 2018 00:31
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Everything that's wrong with Christianity summed up in one tweet.
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Dec 5, 2018 00:51
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And I'm pretty sure most Protestants don't regard Mary as any sort of special heavenly redeeming figure. To me, that's one of the really weird things about Catholidoxy I've long since given up on understanding. https://i.imgur.com/Ib5w6vb.mp4
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Dec 5, 2018 00:54
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Cythereal posted:And I'm pretty sure most Protestants don't regard Mary as any sort of special heavenly redeeming figure. To me, that's one of the really weird things about Catholidoxy I've long since given up on understanding. The point is he's a baptist telling other protestants that the picture isn't protestant (in his view).
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Dec 5, 2018 00:56
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Cythereal posted:And I'm pretty sure most Protestants don't regard Mary as any sort of special heavenly redeeming figure. To me, that's one of the really weird things about Catholidoxy I've long since given up on understanding. Yeah that's what confused me about that tweet. I've always been told Protestants react very badly to the place of Mary in the Church as well as all the saints and stuff. It seems to vary but the lofty place afforded to Mary does seem like a uniquely Catholic thing. Maybe Anglican too? I read something on Wiki once. I find images of Mary very...comforting. Maybe it's my Catholic heritage, maybe it's the simple fact I have always felt more at ease around women and had more female friends, but I still like to just look at the images and read stories. Mariology is a topic I want to research more. Plenty of interesting material on the subject. Also next month I wanted to get the audiobook of The Reed of God which I found on Amzon when looking for books on Mariology.
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Dec 5, 2018 01:11
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Man, the Protestant Church, especially the evangelical side, could really use more reverent attitudes toward Mary. On another note, One of the most common criticisms I’ve heard from evangelicals against Catholic, Anglo-Catholic, and Orthodox veneration of saints is the idea of supernumerary grace. And I don’t really have a response for it, partially because of my evangelical/“sola scriptura” upbringing. First, is there such a thing as supernumerary grace, and, second, what is the traditional soteriological justification used?
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Dec 5, 2018 01:26
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To be honest, what I come away from that picture with, speaking as a Protestant who has no particular views about Mary, is Mary offering Eve a simple "it's going to be all right" moment. We need more of that, whatever branch of the tree we're on.
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Dec 5, 2018 01:38
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Cnidario posted:Man, the Protestant Church, especially the evangelical side, could really use more reverent attitudes toward Mary. To me, it comes down to this: Mary was a human being like you and me. She was chosen for a great and special task by God, unique and unequaled, but she at the end of the day was human. She sinned, and was as flawed and broken as the rest of us. A truly great soul and example to learn from? Yes, absolutely. Sinless or 'queen of the universe' or 'queen of the angels' or other epithets I see on churches? Absolutely not. Ditto the whole concept of saints. For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. https://i.imgur.com/EkndyJM.gifv
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Dec 5, 2018 01:50
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What I find interesting is that, like I said, I like looking at images of Mary. When looking for pictures I found a lot of her looking very majestic, right down to the crown on her head. I'm used to images of her as more...I dunno, humble? I don't know anything about clothes but I am sure you know what I mean. Her head bowed, wearing some sort of head covering. The point is, very different impressions between the latter and the former. I like them both, though.
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Dec 5, 2018 02:00
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NikkolasKing posted:And here I thought the Internet ensures a degree of separation. True, we can now talk to anyone anywhere on the Planet but it's all from a distance and thus you no longer even need to go from Here to Thereto interact with other cultures. I dunno about the idea that the internet promotes an echo chamber, there's a study that concludes that it's largely a myth, people are getting news from diverse news sources through the internet. It's just seems that rather than changing their views, people become more entrenched in their views if they are presented with contrading information (at least if they are Republican - not my words, the study).
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Dec 5, 2018 04:21
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Yeah Man posted:I dunno about the idea that the internet promotes an echo chamber, there's a study that concludes that it's largely a myth, people are getting news from diverse news sources through the internet. It's just seems that rather than changing their views, people become more entrenched in their views if they are presented with contrading information (at least if they are Republican - not my words, the study). That's really interesting! Thanks a lot for the link. The self-licensing stuff especially lines up with how annoyed I am with politics and how absolutely none of it makes sense. Politics has to be the most irrational thing ever. And apparently echo chambers might be better than going out and seeing other opinions because that just makes you hate the other side more. i guess that makes sense. If a Republican thought we were all filthy degenerates beforehand, rubbing that supposed degeneracy in their face is just going to make them more extreme. It's a madhouse. I'd prefer to think more on this book I just bought: The Mystical City ofGod. Has anybody here read it? I wonder if it's strange I find it easier to believe in miracles in the distant past? If this happened today, I might immediately dismiss it.
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Dec 5, 2018 04:57
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I guess I'm the opposite. One of the books that drew me to Orthodoxy was The Mountain of Silence, which is full of stories of Athonite monks having time bend around them or bilocating or having visions of the dead and such. St. Paisios apparently once pushed a kid out of the way of a speeding car from a few hundred miles away.
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Dec 5, 2018 05:02
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docbeard posted:To be honest, what I come away from that picture with, speaking as a Protestant who has no particular views about Mary, is Mary offering Eve a simple "it's going to be all right" moment. Exactly, and not only “it’s going to be alright,” but it is that way because she’s pregnant with God. The entire focus of the image is a baby bump, Eve’s hand is on the bump, Eve’s looking at the bump. Mary as 2nd Eve doesn’t work in the same way as Christ the 2nd Adam, but it does work in the sense of disobedience vs. obedience/faith to God. Where Eve said no to God Himself, Mary believed “just” the messenger. Even if the above wasn’t true, there’s no charity in him. Does every image have to be 100% accurate to your theology? He doesn’t even use icons. Whatever, man. I need to learn to not get enmeshed with nonsense Re: Silk Robes, I don’t like how silk looks. Preference for wool and linens. Also, saw a documentary on how they make silk. The poor worms 
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Dec 5, 2018 05:55
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quote:Now that it’s Advent I’ve begun my annual tradition of complaining Stop right there, Joe. TOOT BOOT posted:Everything that's wrong with Christianity summed up in one tweet. Oh there's surely worse. Cnidario posted:Man, the Protestant Church, especially the evangelical side, could really use more reverent attitudes toward Mary. There is just grace, I think, and in exactly the requisite quantity. Almost everyone recognizes that we owe our situation to the actions of people before us, known and unknown, helpful and unhelpful. We may also learn from exemplary characters. Where I think people run afoul of one another is the form in which the recognition is practiced, and the view of the historicity of the stories told. As I get older, I do find myself more deeply respecting Mary, and her presence in my prayers grow. For most of my life, I only thought about what it's like to be a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. I was not thinking enough of what it's like to be the mother of Jesus. That's it's own responsibility and cross to bear.
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Dec 5, 2018 06:59
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