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pidan fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 5, 2018 07:13
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HEY GUNS posted:i think if someone itt legitimately did not like huge silk robes and ludicrous hats i would have to have a lie-down silk production is an unacceptable abuse of silkworm labor and furthermore pentarchy haberdashers are inadequately compensated
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Dec 5, 2018 07:25
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I mean, that second part is likely true, for all that I struggle with justifying money spent on ceremonial vestments that could be doing charitable works sometimes.
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Dec 5, 2018 07:58
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Liquid Communism posted:I mean, that second part is likely true, for all that I struggle with justifying money spent on ceremonial vestments that could be doing charitable works sometimes. frankly, so is the first bit!
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Dec 5, 2018 08:55
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Save a single splurge on a gaming rig, the only money I've used in years are for magical ingredients, books and outdoors poo poo to pick more plants 
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Dec 5, 2018 09:16
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Caufman posted:Oh there's surely worse. There is, but bitching about the theological implications of a drawing is useless pious nitpicking with all that's going on in the world.
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Dec 5, 2018 09:37
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docbeard posted:To be honest, what I come away from that picture with, speaking as a Protestant who has no particular views about Mary, is Mary offering Eve a simple "it's going to be all right" moment.
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Dec 5, 2018 12:34
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NikkolasKing posted:What I find interesting is that, like I said, I like looking at images of Mary. When looking for pictures I found a lot of her looking very majestic, right down to the crown on her head. This is why icons of married couples or Sergius and Bacchus represent their relationship by painting them in the same room. Maybe gesturing toward each other if you want to get racy. I have read an iconographer getting STEAMED at an icon of the Conception of the Theotokos because there was a bed in the background. For her, this was appropriate:  and this was wrong:  It's why I had legit theological problems with that poem Mr Enderby posted, because it reduces the terrible majesty of Jesus, Our Lady, and the Passion to a human drama--"i don't want a mother to be scared her son will die." And even worse! It presents the desirable outcome as one in which Mary shouldn't have the supernatural knowledge she does have, because it'll damage her human feelings! Good! (Our lady of czestojowa, one of my favorite Maries)  Still good! (Berlingherio, 1200s or something. Christ has a scroll because He is a teacher and that's how teachers were portrayed in Greece and Rome)  Getting there to not good but so far we are still ALLUDING to emotions rather than portraying them, there is probably still an Orthodox theological perspective behind there...(Simone Martini. Also 1200s or something)  Nope. Phenomenal art. I love Caravaggio as an artist and I love his life story. But the Orthodox would say this is not an icon.  Edit: I was just thinking about this, but you can make the argument that inasmuch as we have a theology of which visual art, music, architecture, and poetry is OK and which isn't, the Orthodox are in this way and probably only this way closer to people like the Primitive Baptists or the Mennonites than all other Western Christians. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Dec 5, 2018 |
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Dec 5, 2018 12:54
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pidan posted:And the silk moths aren't adapted to survive on their own in nature any more, so you'd have to take care of exponential numbers of silk worms and moths with each generation. silk moths are the persian cats of bugs
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Dec 5, 2018 12:57
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HEY GUNS posted:It's why I had legit theological problems with that poem Mr Enderby posted, because it reduces the terrible majesty of Jesus, Our Lady, and the Passion to a human drama--"i don't want a mother to be scared her son will die." And even worse! It presents the desirable outcome as one in which Mary shouldn't have the supernatural knowledge she does have, because it'll damage her human feelings! I do not understand this, at all. Why is Mary being inhuman desirable? Shouldn't examples and exemplars be human, above all else? So we can relate to them, sympathize with them, and learn from them? Even if you believe in saints, shouldn't their humanity be emphasized? Even Jesus by definition understood and related to our human struggles and failings, the one perfect design of mankind walking among us. 
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Dec 5, 2018 14:37
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pidan fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 5, 2018 14:41
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Re: the twitter post, what he takes issue with is Mary being the one stomping the snake, not depicting her as pregnant or with Eve.
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Dec 5, 2018 14:49
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Optimus Prime Rib posted:Re: the twitter post, what he takes issue with is Mary being the one stomping the snake, not depicting her as pregnant or with Eve.
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Dec 5, 2018 14:51
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pidan posted:Silk worms are very cute (and tasty) but they lay 500 eggs at once so you'd be dealing with millions of moths pretty quickly.
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Dec 5, 2018 14:53
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HEY GUNS posted:that part is literally in the bible. "she will crush your head, you will bite her heel" "She will crush your head" in Gen 3:15 is a mistranslation by Jerome. Most translations done in the past 500 years will render the pronoun as "It" or "He." The one doing the crushing is a reference to the seed of the woman, not the woman herself.
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Dec 5, 2018 14:54
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HEY GUNS posted:Edit: I was just thinking about this, but you can make the argument that inasmuch as we have a theology of which visual art, music, architecture, and poetry is OK and which isn't, the Orthodox are in this way and probably only this way closer to people like the Primitive Baptists or the Mennonites than all other Western Christians. Yeah, I could certainly buy this, though it is a way in which I am not a very good Mennonite and would probably be a worse Orthodox.
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Dec 5, 2018 14:56
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Optimus Prime Rib posted:in the past 500 years 
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Dec 5, 2018 14:58
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docbeard posted:Yeah, I could certainly buy this, though it is a way in which I am not a very good Mennonite and would probably be a worse Orthodox. i will never not love caravaggio because Big Dick Energy but it's not icons HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Dec 5, 2018 |
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Dec 5, 2018 15:01
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It's because we're no longer translating from the vulgate rather than source texts. Even the New Jerusalem Bible and Catholic editions of the NRSV put it that way.
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Dec 5, 2018 15:06
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Optimus Prime Rib posted:It's because we're no longer translating from the vulgate rather than source texts. Even the New Jerusalem Bible and Catholic editions of the NRSV put it that way. we haven't had an original thought since 787 and we like it that way
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Dec 5, 2018 15:09
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HEY GUNS posted:i am aware of this, but you've got to understand that even the past thousand years are a little bit too new for us Fair enough, I just follow too many WCT folks, who started dog-piling on the guy and posting anathemas from Trent about those rejecting the vulgate.
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Dec 5, 2018 15:16
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HEY GUNS posted:you can like whatever art/music/prayers you want, the theological part is what you can do in church or what art it's appropriate to venerate And that's where the similarity you noted between Orthodox and Mennonites completely falls apart, because we don't have a concept of icons. Like, at all. (At least not officially. Life finds a way.)
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Dec 5, 2018 15:20
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I did check the Septuagint translation, which of course is the one that matters for Orthodox, and it uses "αυτός," which appears to be masculine. Which made me realize I don't recall seeing any Orthodox icons where Mary steps on any snakes. Jesus does, when he's getting baptized. Ah well, we have other ways to show the Virgin Mary commands the respect of snakes. Of course, the guy also seemed to be objecting to the possibility of Mary being empowered by Jesus before his birth, which made me think he needs a refresher on how eternity works. Meanwhile, I found a guy in a different Twitter thread saying, in all seriousness, "Where is it written that Mary is in heaven?"
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Dec 5, 2018 15:32
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NikkolasKing posted:I'd prefer to think more on this book I just bought: I have read bits of it and I do not trust it, or private revelations in general. There are moments when it freely contradicts the gospels in a very dripping sentimental sort of way. The world of Catholic Traditionalists is filled with zealous followers of Mary of Agreda or Maria Valtorta and they hate each other. Read the gospels instead.
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Dec 5, 2018 15:41
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Keromaru5 posted:I did check the Septuagint translation, which of course is the one that matters for Orthodox, and it uses "αυτός," which appears to be masculine. Which made me realize I don't recall seeing any Orthodox icons where Mary steps on any snakes. Jesus does, when he's getting baptized. Ah well, we have other ways to show the Virgin Mary commands the respect of snakes. I mean, it is a pretty big assumption. 
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Dec 5, 2018 15:47
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Liquid Communism posted:I mean, it is a pretty big assumption. o no
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Dec 5, 2018 15:57
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docbeard posted:And that's where the similarity you noted between Orthodox and Mennonites completely falls apart, because we don't have a concept of icons. Like, at all. (At least not officially. Life finds a way.)
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Dec 5, 2018 16:12
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Cythereal posted:I do not understand this, at all. Why is Mary being inhuman desirable? Shouldn't examples and exemplars be human, above all else? So we can relate to them, sympathize with them, and learn from them? Even if you believe in saints, shouldn't their humanity be emphasized? Mary isn't inhuman and shouldn't be described as inhuman, but at the same time, her story can't be reduced to an ordinary human drama: there's supernatural aspects about it from the very beginning. Catholics (and, I think, the Orthodox?) believe that her marriage to Joseph was arranged so that she would have a protector while remaining a sworn virgin. This is not inhuman or unnatural; ordinary people have had "Josephite marriages" too; but it makes the drama about her pregnancy different, not a usual "man discovers fiancee pregnant" situation. Women have had their only children executed for offending the government, and grieved for them, but Mary's son's execution was different from theirs, and wishing that she might be unaware of the doom ahead of her is to wish that she wasn't really a participant in his life.
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Dec 5, 2018 16:55
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zonohedron posted:Mary isn't inhuman and shouldn't be described as inhuman, but at the same time, her story can't be reduced to an ordinary human drama: there's supernatural aspects about it from the very beginning. Catholics (and, I think, the Orthodox?) believe that her marriage to Joseph was arranged so that she would have a protector while remaining a sworn virgin. This is not inhuman or unnatural; ordinary people have had "Josephite marriages" too; but it makes the drama about her pregnancy different, not a usual "man discovers fiancee pregnant" situation. Women have had their only children executed for offending the government, and grieved for them, but Mary's son's execution was different from theirs, and wishing that she might be unaware of the doom ahead of her is to wish that she wasn't really a participant in his life. I think it absolutely can be reduced to an ordinary human drama, and depending on the audience, should be. The execution of Mary's son was no different from any other's, in my opinion, that's part of the point - Jesus was executed alongside other common criminals, because in the eyes of earthly authorities, that's exactly what he was and merely more delusional than most. I think Mary did have regrets, and doubts, and fears. She wouldn't have been human if she didn't. It's what she did despite her sins and human failings that made her special. And, personally, I doubt Mary was a virgin all her life. Before Jesus' birth, certainly, but not all her life after that. https://i.imgur.com/dYTeZFZ.gifv
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Dec 5, 2018 17:22
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Optimus Prime Rib posted:"She will crush your head" in Gen 3:15 is a mistranslation by Jerome. Most translations done in the past 500 years will render the pronoun as "It" or "He." The one doing the crushing is a reference to the seed of the woman, not the woman herself. Well Mary was the seed of Eve, so that still works.
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Dec 5, 2018 17:29
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To be honest, it's the word "reduced" I most object to, there. The story of Mary, like the story of Jesus, IS the story of humanity, and it's not a reduction, or denial, of the supernatural aspects to focus on the humanity of that story.
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Dec 5, 2018 17:31
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HEY GUNS posted:yeah but both of us think art is theologically important, the catholics are all: "what looks cool or sounds cool" and most other western christians are all "what looks cool BUT NOT TOO CATHOLIC, gently caress YOU DAD" Yeah, I'm with you here (though I suspect many Mennonites, especially older ones, would be surprised to hear that they think art is theologically important; it's true, tho)
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Dec 5, 2018 17:33
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docbeard posted:Yeah, I'm with you here (though I suspect many Mennonites, especially older ones, would be surprised to hear that they think art is theologically important; it's true, tho) see also the amish, the quakers, all those little protestant groups with acapella singing only
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Dec 5, 2018 17:39
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HEY GUNS posted:if you think art is important enough to object to it, you Care Oh, I 100% agree. I'm just picturing my grandpa reacting to that statement. (Mennonites are traditionally in the acapella singing only group, though that's gone from "mandate" to "theoretically beloved tradition that we don't really practice" over the years.)
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Dec 5, 2018 17:44
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Worthleast posted:I have read bits of it and I do not trust it, or private revelations in general. There are moments when it freely contradicts the gospels in a very dripping sentimental sort of way. Hm, thanks for the information. I still definitely intend to read The Bible, don't worry. I'm just a guy who is constantly eager to learn stuff and there is so, so, SO much to learn about Christianity. Truth be told some of my current religious interest was sparked by my philosophy interest in Aristotle and then Aquinas. I know that isn't teh correct basis for being a Christian though so I'm gonna read The Bible when I have the time and corret mindset. I like to learn but I also have a horrible time focusing.
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Dec 5, 2018 22:23
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NikkolasKing posted:teh correct basis for being a Christian ???? ??? ! Nah I know what you mean but seriously, stop talking about how you don't know enough to be a Christian and all that kind of thing. If you love the good and you want to grow closer to God, that's a fine basis. IMO.
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Dec 6, 2018 00:44
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NikkolasKing posted:Hm, thanks for the information. I still definitely intend to read The Bible, don't worry. I'm just a guy who is constantly eager to learn stuff and there is so, so, SO much to learn about Christianity. “Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.” All Truth leads to the one who is Truth. Many have found God through other means first. Want to know the most intelligent man ever (Jesus) and the one who is truth itself (the Father)? I can hardly read my Bible or listen to teaching b/c mental issues. God still provides the church and my Christian family (the Spirit). Sorry if I’m talking at you. The whole point is the doors got flung way open and they bought all the tickets already so
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Dec 6, 2018 16:37
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Good Lord am I already sick to death of Christmas carols. Was out running errands today and had my lovely choice of what to have blaring in my ears: OH CHRISTMAS TREE OH CHRISTMAS TREE, JINGLE BELL JINGLE BELL JINGLE BELL ROCK, CHESTNUTS ROASTING OVER AN OPEN FIRE. Christmas as anything but a private family holiday was a mistake. 
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Dec 6, 2018 17:31
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Cythereal posted:Good Lord am I already sick to death of Christmas carols. Was out running errands today and had my lovely choice of what to have blaring in my ears: OH CHRISTMAS TREE OH CHRISTMAS TREE, JINGLE BELL JINGLE BELL JINGLE BELL ROCK, CHESTNUTS ROASTING OVER AN OPEN FIRE. Carols are fine so long as Jesus is somewhere in the lyrics. Everything else is trash.
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Dec 6, 2018 17:58
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ProperGanderPusher posted:Carols are fine so long as Jesus is somewhere in the lyrics. Everything else is trash. <Sadly hums Good King Wenceslas to himself while trying not to cry>
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Dec 6, 2018 18:04
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