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ProperGanderPusher posted:Carols are fine so long as Jesus is somewhere in the lyrics. Everything else is trash. You will pry my Trans-Siberian Orchestra out of my cold, dead hands. 
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Dec 6, 2018 18:07
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ProperGanderPusher posted:Carols are fine so long as Jesus is somewhere in the lyrics. Everything else is trash. phew, Down In Yon Forest gets in under the wire
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Dec 6, 2018 18:12
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Epicurius posted:<Sadly hums Good King Wenceslas to himself while trying not to cry> Saints are fine too. I’d post a clip of Kto Kto Nikolai but YouTube seems to not have any decent recordings.
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Dec 6, 2018 19:09
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I was just reading a little bit about the Chinese Rites Controversy (nothing major for now, just the wikipedia page, but I'm really interested in syncretism so if anyone has any recs for good books on the subject I'm all ears). I find it really interesting that the Jesuit position, and the position of the Catholic Church as a whole since 1939, is that rituals honoring Confucius and the ancestors are fully acceptable. On the one hand, I'm all for syncretism in general but the justification, that these are wholly secular rituals and therefore not in conflict with Catholicism, seems to deprive the rituals of some of their importance in Chinese culture. I'm neither Catholic nor Chinese and I fully admit my ignorance but I'm curious if anyone here has a better informed opinion on the topics. Also, though I don't post anywhere very often and I don't consider myself religious, I want to say how much I appreciate this thread. I posted in one of the previous Christianity threads about Latin American folk saints but I've but I'm not a very active user. That said, this is definitely one of my favorite threads on the forums and I appreciate you all. I loved the thread when it was strictly a Christianity thread and I love the thread now that it's a bit broader both for the depth to which Christian beliefs and ideas are examined and for the curiosity that everyone exhibits toward other religious traditions. Some of my favorite posts are the occasional ones about Buddhism, Judaism, Norse Paganism, Native American traditions, Wicca, and the list goes on. Clearly there's a Christian foundation to the thread but I love that this is truly a safe space for respectful, non-confrontational discussion of all religion. On a somewhat less serious note, I took a few months off from my job in China earlier this year to do some traveling around South America. During that time I started texting and occasionally video-chatting with an ex-girlfriend (which was a mistake, but that's neither here nor there). She's from China and one day in a video chat she remarked that she loved the picture of the Buddha statue I'd recently posted on WeChat, which took me by surprise because generally speaking Buddha statues are thin on the ground in southern Colombia. Turns out she was talking about a statue of Mary, which she had thought was Guanyin, which I thought was interesting for a couple of reasons. For one, I hadn't made the connection but since she mentioned it it seemed pretty obvious, but also I didn't know that Guanyin was referred to as a Buddha. I suppose it's possible that her English was somewhat limited when it came to religious technicalities but she was pretty adamant about it. I thought it was interesting anyway. At any rate, here's the picture she was talking about, taken in Popayan, Colombia: 
stereobreadsticks fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Dec 6, 2018 |
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Dec 6, 2018 21:45
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Christmas Jazz on Spotify slays (So do all the Lo-Fi playlists). But I love Christmas music and the mystery and the Aoelian modes. Our church sang “...Oh Come Emmanuel” last Sunday. Pastor talked about how dark of a situation the song presents, and really dug into longing and the need for total Justice and Salvation. Satan’s tyranny, lonely exile, depths of hell, etc. [quote= O come, O come, Emmanuel And ransom captive Israel That mourns in lonely exile here Until the Son of God appear O come, Thou Rod of Jesse, free Thine own from Satan’s tyranny From depths of Hell Thy people save And give them victory o’er the grave] [/quote] I love it and need it. I get hating the sugar dusted, noisy, too-bright-for-before-the-winter-soltice songs.
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Dec 6, 2018 21:58
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stereobreadsticks posted:I'm neither Catholic nor Chinese and I fully admit my ignorance but I'm curious if anyone here has a better informed opinion on the topics. Also interested, if anyone is hesitating.
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Dec 6, 2018 21:59
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I get annoyed at anything being overplayed (and EVERYTHING Christmassy gets overplayed this time of year) but I love me some Christmas hymns, especially sung, unaccompanied/barely accompanied, in a group, ideally with some sort of hot beverage close to hand. And honestly, I like a lot of the stupid silly carols too (you know, in moderation). And actually sung by actual living people and not just played over and over and over in the store by the Low Effort Electric Orchestra off their award-winning album "Meh, Re: Christmas". Hooray for people celebrating and having fun, sez I!
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Dec 6, 2018 22:16
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I may be a filthy pagan, but 'O Holy Night' is the good poo poo. "Long lay the world in sin and darkness pining until the day when the soul felt its worth / A thrill of hope, the weary world rejoices, for yonder breaks a new and glorious dawn"? It's good poo poo. Also an entire house full of folk dancers belting out 'Gaudete' is a thing that cannot be described, only experienced.
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Dec 6, 2018 22:29
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I agree, O Holy Night is amazing. Lately the only religious song that winds through my brain is the version of the Salve Regina which forms part of O What A Circus and I'm p sure this is sacrilege of some kind but it's so fuckin catchy.
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Dec 6, 2018 22:36
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i have a confession, as an atheist the War on Christmas is real, but we didn't start it. Christmas carols are violence
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Dec 6, 2018 22:39
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Mad Hamish posted:I may be a filthy pagan, but 'O Holy Night' is the good poo poo. "Long lay the world in sin and darkness pining until the day when the soul felt its worth / A thrill of hope, the weary world rejoices, for yonder breaks a new and glorious dawn"? It's good poo poo. I am a sucker for "God Rest ye Merry Gentlemen", but yeah, a well sung take on "O Holy Night" is -powerful-.
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Dec 6, 2018 22:52
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happy feast of st nicholas btw
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Dec 6, 2018 22:58
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It Came Upon a Midnight Clear is lovely also, including the third verse which Wikipedia tells me some denominations are grumpy about: Yet with the woes of sin and strife The world has suffered long; Beneath the angel-strain have rolled Two thousand years of wrong; And man, at war with man, hears not The love-song which they bring; O hush the noise, ye men of strife, And hear the angels sing.
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Dec 6, 2018 23:00
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stereobreadsticks posted:I was just reading a little bit about the Chinese Rites Controversy (nothing major for now, just the wikipedia page, but I'm really interested in syncretism so if anyone has any recs for good books on the subject I'm all ears). I find it really interesting that the Jesuit position, and the position of the Catholic Church as a whole since 1939, is that rituals honoring Confucius and the ancestors are fully acceptable. On the one hand, I'm all for syncretism in general but the justification, that these are wholly secular rituals and therefore not in conflict with Catholicism, seems to deprive the rituals of some of their importance in Chinese culture. I'm neither Catholic nor Chinese and I fully admit my ignorance but I'm curious if anyone here has a better informed opinion on the topics. Trying to detach Confucianism from its spiritual or religious aspect was a weird 20th Century thing. Confucius himself didn't talk much about metaphysics or cosmology but the Neo Confucianists, heavily influenced by East Asian Buddhism, definitely did. Also China and Japan (and presumably other East Asian countries I know less about) are just very prone to syncretism. The result is that, even if Confucianism itself doesn't say much about gods or the like, the various folk religions is mingles with do. Same for Buddhism. East Asian Buddhism adopted all kinds of local gods and vice versa too with Japan taking many Hindu deities. Here is an article on that last point https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2002/04/10/arts/tracing-the-eastward-footsteps-of-indian-gods/#.XAmdxXRKjcc I'm no expert - I wish I was. But like you, I just find syncretism fascinating. It has always seemed sensible to me that, whatever ultimate truth there is out there, it will surely be found in these "religious melting pots." It's not really Confucian but I find the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom and Hong Xiuquan utterly fascinating. His ideas on Christianity are probably as heretical as they come but they are a fascinating case of syncretism. You might enjoy this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018AAJW0K/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 quote:Occupying much of imperial China�s Yangzi River heartland and costing more than twenty million lives, the Taiping Rebellion (1851-64) was no ordinary peasant revolt. What most distinguished this dramatic upheaval from earlier rebellions were the spiritual beliefs of the rebels. The core of the Taiping faith focused on the belief that Shangdi, the high God of classical China, had chosen the Taiping leader, Hong Xiuquan, to establish his Heavenly Kingdom on Earth. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 6, 2018 |
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Dec 6, 2018 23:24
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NikkolasKing posted:Trying to detach Confucianism from its spiritual or religious aspect was a weird 20th Century thing. Confucius himself didn't talk much about metaphysics or cosmology but the Neo Confucianists, heavily influenced by East Asian Buddhism, definitely did. Also China and Japan (and presumably other East Asian countries I know less about) are just very prone to syncretism. The result is that, even if Confucianism itself doesn't say much about gods or the like, the various folk religions is mingles with do. Same for Buddhism. East Asian Buddhism adopted all kinds of local gods and vice versa too with Japan taking many Hindu deities. Here is an article on that last point Yes, the Taiping is fascinating. I haven't read that particular book but I have read God's Chinese Son by Jonathan Spence. One of my favorite things about Asia is the way religious ideas that at first glance might seem distinct blend together in interesting ways. This syncretic approach applies to secularism and atheism too, at least in my opinion, I've lived in mainland China for several years now and I know so many people who talk about being committed atheists but still have Kitchen God shrines and burn hell money on the streets for the Hungry Ghost Festival. I don't mean this as a criticism either, I just find it fascinating.
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Dec 6, 2018 23:40
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A poster did a series of long, very cool effortposts on the Taiping in the milhist thread.
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Dec 6, 2018 23:53
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What's everyone's favourite song about syncretism? I like 'On a Sea of Fleur-de-Lis' by Richard Shindell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqffg2QCTfo
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Dec 6, 2018 23:58
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I prefer Trans-Siberian Orchestra's Christmas albums. All three albums are on youtube.
Cythereal fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 00:04
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Pellisworth posted:A poster did a series of long, very cool effortposts on the Taiping in the milhist thread. That was me until I had another babby which took up my free time and derailed the project. I'll see if I can't get it going again. I will note that disguising Mary statues as Guanyin was sometimes done on purpose during periods of persecution. The Taiping smashed up some churches by mistake before someone explained what Catholicism was. Also a lot of the Christian theological terminology in Chinese was lifted from Buddhism which could muddy things without any conscious effort towards syncretism.
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Dec 7, 2018 00:25
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P-Mack posted:That was me until I had another babby which took up my free time and derailed the project. I'll see if I can't get it going again. Is there any way to search and find those posts you have done already? One reason I like Wiccans and Neopagans is they can often be very syncretic or eclectic. The mix of theologies and ideas they bring together for themselves is really interesting. Although I'm sure Christian Wicca is the height of heresy. Although one thing I'm learning is that 'trinities" are actually somewhat common. Egypt eventually had it, the Neoplatonists had it and of course Christianity ended up having it. Something to do with explaining how God can be both transcendent AND active in his creation.
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Dec 7, 2018 00:33
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NikkolasKing posted:Is there any way to search and find those posts you have done already? Hindu trinities are more about metaphysical function than anything involving embodiment (that's different, it's why avatars are a thing) but Creator-Preserver-Destroyer is very nearly comprehensible as Hindu theology goes.  Worshipping the Creator is not particularly popular because Brahma / the archetype is the clockmaker god, but that means Thomas Jefferson et al are 100% on board! It's just a less personal, interventionist deity than, you know, Vishnu or in a TOTALLY different way Shiva.
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Dec 7, 2018 04:13
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pidan fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 7, 2018 04:23
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Little Drummer Boy does nothing good to me.
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Dec 7, 2018 04:51
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pidan posted:To be fair, there are a lot of committed atheists in western countries who still put up a tree and give presents on Christmas, or use the phrase "thank God". I guess that's more of a cultural thing than necessarily a sign of religious ambiguity. Pascal's wager is definitely a thing in the West, and much more calculating than your translation. That and inertia may be the main reasons that most nominally Christian Americans are Christian. (But won't admit)
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Dec 7, 2018 04:55
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Caufman posted:Little Drummer Boy does nothing good to me. I'll always think of it kindly because of Amahl and the Night Visitors. My mother loves that play and we watch it every year at Christmas time.
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Dec 7, 2018 04:56
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joat mon posted:Pascal's wager is definitely a thing in the West, and much more calculating than your translation. That and inertia may be the main reasons that most nominally Christian Americans are Christian. (But won't admit) you should be an atheist because God is actually engaged in a cosmic game of hide-and-seek and absolutely resents being believed in by anyone who hasn't physically located Him it's too late for me because by saying this I have 100% sealed my eternal damnation
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Dec 7, 2018 04:59
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Hindu trinities are more about metaphysical function than anything involving embodiment (that's different, it's why avatars are a thing) but Creator-Preserver-Destroyer is very nearly comprehensible as Hindu theology goes. I've always been fascinated by the "Hindu" (if such a thing is even the right term. I've ben told it is an entirely unhelpful and artificial umbrella term, kinda like Gnosticism) philosophy and theology. The idea there is one Creator but several faces of them makes a lot of sense. Being that I prefer women and like many Westerners got tired of how very patriarchal Abrahamic religions are (sorry Christian friends) , I was always drawn to the idea of Shaktism. Sadly, and this might be just due to the surface level research I've done, Shakti is a lot less represented in Indian philosophy than Vishnu or Shiva. Her followers are more devotional which of course is fine. I'm speaking purely as a guy who just likes to read up on different kinds of thought and metaphysics and all that stuff. For people who 100% believe, I am happy for them. Of course there are some modern female Indian gurus who have really interesting thought. There is a Hindu Temple near where I lived and I've considered going there too just like going to a church. Problem is transportation as I am legally blind and thus can't drive. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 05:13
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joat mon posted:Pascal's wager is definitely a thing in the West, and much more calculating than your translation. That and inertia may be the main reasons that most nominally Christian Americans are Christian. (But won't admit) My biggest problem with Pascal's Wager is that people learn it, or some version of it, and then make snap judgments about it without having knowing anything more about Pascal or his beliefs than that. It's remarkably frustrating.
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Dec 7, 2018 05:18
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Caufman posted:Little Drummer Boy does nothing good to me. I've always liked it because all Jesus wants is for you to be yourself as best you can be.
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Dec 7, 2018 05:24
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Epicurius posted:My biggest problem with Pascal's Wager is that people learn it, or some version of it, and then make snap judgments about it without having knowing anything more about Pascal or his beliefs than that. It's remarkably frustrating. i remember numerical anxiety had some extremely good posts about how the wager is actually a commentary on the limits of human reason but im too drunk and depressed to dredge them up
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Dec 7, 2018 05:38
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Deteriorata posted:I've always liked it because all Jesus wants is for you to be yourself as best you can be. That is a likable message. It's the repeating parumpapumpum that gets to me.
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Dec 7, 2018 06:51
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pidan posted:To be fair, there are a lot of committed atheists in western countries who still put up a tree and give presents on Christmas, or use the phrase "thank God". I guess that's more of a cultural thing than necessarily a sign of religious ambiguity. You're right, especially with the Christmas tree. I think "thank God" as an expression doesn't necessarily indicate any religious beliefs or practices, it's just a common expression in the English language. That said, setting up a Christmas trees or Nativity scenes does strike me as similar to setting up Kitchen God shrines, like you don't need to believe in the stories behind them to appreciate their aesthetics and cultural significance. I do think that modern Chinese culture is a lot more religious than it tends to self-identify as, a lot of Confucian, Daoist, and Buddhist beliefs are so ingrained in Chinese culture that they're hard to escape, even for people who never set foot in a temple. And again, that's ok, I don't mean any of this as a criticism. I definitely agree that secular, even hardcore atheist, Westerners have a lot of Christian ideas ingrained in their way of thinking just because that's the cultural milieu their ideas developed in.
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Dec 7, 2018 10:48
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StashAugustine posted:i remember numerical anxiety had some extremely good posts about how the wager is actually a commentary on the limits of human reason but im too drunk and depressed to dredge them up Here and Here. They're EXTREMELY good posts.
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Dec 7, 2018 11:30
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Kings do a good carol service Sudanese gospel carols are also on point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R2heW355Jk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ-BTGnNLY
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Dec 7, 2018 12:29
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Caufman posted:Little Drummer Boy does nothing good to me. i liked it as a young Hegel because the drum part made me think of war
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Dec 7, 2018 13:12
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stereobreadsticks posted:I definitely agree that secular, even hardcore atheist, Westerners have a lot of Christian ideas ingrained in their way of thinking just because that's the cultural milieu their ideas developed in.
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Dec 7, 2018 13:15
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I say "thank god" on a fairly regular basis, even having thought about it and went "man that's kinda weird." On the other hand I never got into the habit of saying "bless you" for sneezing. HEY GUNS posted:Not just Christian--as a non-Protestant, looking at all this from outside it's specifically Protestant. The content of the ideas may not be, but their form definitely is this, 100%
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Dec 7, 2018 15:58
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HEY GUNS posted:Not just Christian--as a non-Protestant, looking at all this from outside it's specifically Protestant. The content of the ideas may not be, but their form definitely is Genuinely curious, what do you mean by this? As a newly converted Protestant, it's interesting to hear what kind of biases in my worldview comes about being raised in the West.
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Dec 8, 2018 01:11
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Yeah Man posted:Genuinely curious, what do you mean by this? As a newly converted Protestant, it's interesting to hear what kind of biases in my worldview comes about being raised in the West. the idea that your obligations take the form of convictions at all, not (for example) acts, food taboos, rituals, your place and role in kinship networks the idea that all this is expressed in terms of emotions, which you perceive as the result of intense introspection verbs include: striving, getting, acquiring, benefiting, believing, exerting yourself, converting others religion, politics, modern atheism, talking on the Internet...in this country it's all got a kind of Protestant tincture, whether or not the person doing any of it is Protestant HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 01:30
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I swear that my punishment for working in the life sciences is periodically getting unsolicited demands for “debate” from our resident New Atheist I’m sorry, it’s not the place, but I just needed to vent
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Dec 8, 2018 08:28
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