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theironjef posted:The ennie podcast nomination thread is going. As always its local favorites Grognard Files and KARTAS walking away with tons of nominations. System Mastery did get a nod so now I'm curious. If we make it past the judges awareness that we think 4e isn't trash, are they going to send us a request for a 15 minute reel? God I hope so. 15 minutes of; increasingly sigh-laden and resigned "Would you play this? No, it sucks." wrap-ups over the past five years.
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Dec 7, 2018 07:48
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That Old Tree posted:15 minutes of resigned "Would you play this? No, it sucks." wrap-ups over the past five years. You're thinking too small. 15 minute guerrilla ad for Duckman: the RPG.
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Dec 7, 2018 07:48
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Kai Tave posted:You're thinking too small. No, no no no. The first 15 minutes of the 7th Sea April Fool's episode. EDIT: Or the entire episode sped up to fit into 15 minutes.
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Dec 7, 2018 07:52
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15 minute micro episode titled Stormbringer: a Second Chance, but the actual episode is just ripping into it for being pretentious unplayable twaddlecock again.
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Dec 7, 2018 07:55
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Mock up a podcast website and a 15 minute clip show for a non-existant podcast.
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Dec 7, 2018 07:55
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theironjef posted:The ennie podcast nomination thread is going. As always its local favorites Grognard Files and KARTAS walking away with tons of nominations. System Mastery did get a nod so now I'm curious. If we make it past the judges awareness that we think 4e isn't trash, are they going to send us a request for a 15 minute reel? God I hope so. just send them 15 minutes of the 4e episode's greatest hits
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Dec 7, 2018 08:20
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theironjef posted:15 minute micro episode titled Stormbringer: a Second Chance, but the actual episode is just ripping into it for being pretentious unplayable twaddlecock again. I'm pretty sure you could get it down to 20 seconds. "Isn't that the game based on the guy who wants to bone his sister? Alfic of Melmac? Hard pass."
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Dec 7, 2018 08:41
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm pretty sure you could get it down to 20 seconds. It is physically impossible for Jef and Jon to riff on anything for less than two full minutes.
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Dec 7, 2018 08:45
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Just take the clip from one of the older episodes (I forgot which one) where Jon says "4th edition - it's GOD's edition!" and loop it for 15 minutes straight.
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Dec 7, 2018 10:43
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MadScientistWorking posted:Speak for yourself. Its a pretty common refrain around here that Lovecraft was such an irredeemable piece of poo poo that Robert E. Howard started to back away from his racism because of it. EDIT: The real difference between their views on race is that Lovecraft was more accepting of a role of big government in racism, and therefore didn't object to the Nazis until he decided they weren't gentlemen, whereas Howard had a much more libertarian "why do we need concentration camps for lesser races when we can just lynch 'em?" perspective. Warthur fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 12:21
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Warthur posted:EDIT: The real difference between their views on race is that Lovecraft was more accepting of a role of big government in racism, and therefore didn't object to the Nazis until he decided they weren't gentlemen, whereas Howard had a much more libertarian "why do we need concentration camps for lesser races when we can just lynch 'em?" perspective. I thought both were dead before Nazis became a thing in common American discourse - Lovecraft from stomach/bowel cancer and Howard shot himself shortly after his mother died. Edit: Early 1937 and Mid 1936, respectively.
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Dec 7, 2018 12:41
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LashLightning posted:I thought both were dead before Nazis became a thing in common American discourse - Lovecraft from stomach/bowel cancer and Howard shot himself shortly after his mother died. A chunk of their correspondence is them talking about what was going on in Germany (Nazis had been in power for some years before either died) and it boils down to Howard going "GRR BIG GOVERNMENT BAD" and Lovecraft going "my dear fellow how else do you expect them to deal with their Jew problem?"
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Dec 7, 2018 13:54
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Warthur posted:and Lovecraft going "my dear fellow how else do you expect them to deal with their Jew problem?"  what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuck
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Dec 7, 2018 14:19
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And the crazy part is Lovecraft married a Jew, and had to be reminded mid-rant who he was sharing a bed with.
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Dec 7, 2018 15:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:
America in general had a sizable nazi sympathy movement, until the war got started and it became fashionable to dislike Germans again.
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Dec 7, 2018 15:13
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Henry Ford published the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in his extremely popular newspaper. Pre-WW2 America was hosed up, and the anti-Semitism never really went away, even after America turned against Nazism.
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Dec 7, 2018 15:22
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Something to keep in mind with Lovecraft racism chat is that it tends to hinge on him being exceptionally racist "for the time." And he was really loving racist! But "the time" was infinitely goddamn racist. The difference is that it's benefited from edits, whitewashing, and selective forgetting in ways than one weirdo's weird fiction wasn't. You have stuff like Tulsa, the Rosewood massacre, and The Red Summer of 1919 going on. And this was all, by definition, normal for the time. Don't get me wrong and think I'm defending Lovecraft's racism - he held completely repugnant views. But those views were completely in line with an embarrassing, uncomfortable chapter of American history that people are eager to forget. Lovecraft seems to stand out because we have unedited access to his preserved letters, stories, and personal thoughts. By disappearing into obscurity, he left no one to clean him up. He's a perfectly-preserved representative of his horrible era.
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Dec 7, 2018 16:09
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I think it is work reiterating that Lovecraft was unusually racist even for his time. Not saying that other creatives of that time weren’t also racist, but Lovecraft was unusually so. I still love cosmic horror and the early 20th century occult investigator vibe, I just also think it’s vitally important to separate that from Lovecraft’s racism. As mentioned previously, making the protagonist the monster and making that be a sympathetic thing is a good first step. e:fb
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Dec 7, 2018 16:10
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Part of what also makes Lovecraft's racism stand out for his time was less its volume and more the tenor. The particular strands of biological degeneracy that underpinned it were even by that time sort of antiquated. While there were still some neo-Lamarckians running around trying to experimentally prove soft inheritance in Lovecraft's time, they had a century of failure under the belts by the 1920s. As Western society had shifted from the explicit economy of chattel slavery towards colonialism, you also had a shift towards a sort of mishmashed cultural racism with varying degrees of eugenics flavoring as the "proper" attitude towards racial difference. So even at the time, Lovecraft's writing comes across in 1920s society like someone today ranting about the intrinsic rapacious nature of the Hun. It kind of stands out in a weirdly atavistic sort of way, especially for someone so enamored by the trappings of science.
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Dec 7, 2018 16:37
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Lovecraft's whole thing was being ridiculously old-fashioned. He'd sometimes date his letters in the previous century.
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Dec 7, 2018 16:42
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Honestly I think a big part of Lovecraft's endurance is no one knows what the gently caress squamous means.
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Dec 7, 2018 16:45
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Honestly I think a big part of Lovecraft's endurance is no one knows what the gently caress squamous means. It’s a cr7 monster in the 3e Draconomicon, duh.
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Dec 7, 2018 16:51
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Lovecraft's whole thing was being ridiculously old-fashioned. He'd sometimes date his letters in the previous century. Yeah, he even liked to spell things the old English way, like "shew."
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Dec 7, 2018 17:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:and women, and the ocean, and going outside, and architecture, and, like, the general concept of geometric curves I do a lot of GIS/mapping and survey at work. I'm fairly sure "non-Euclidean geometry" won't really drive you mad.
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Dec 7, 2018 17:16
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Honestly I think a big part of Lovecraft's endurance is no one knows what the gently caress squamous means. Scaly, or, if you're Richard Dreyfuss, sharky. Quint, of course, was the exact kind of human ol' Howie was terrified of. All the more reason to celebrate that film.
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Dec 7, 2018 17:44
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Why Lovecraft? Lovecraft stands out because his racism is well-documented, at least surprisingly virulent for the time and place he lived in, baked into the themes of a lot of his work (if not all of it), and he's an unavoidable cultural pillar of the TG community. It's nearly impossible to avoid his stuff if you're not laser-focused on the rare setting that doesn't have it. You enjoy D&D? His influence is in there. World of Darkness? Yep. Palladium? That too. Shadowrun? Uh-huh. Deadlands? They had a crossover with it. Marvel Heroic- wait, Marvel?! Yeah, Marvel has it too. Exalted? Sure. And endless gimmick board games, whether you're playing Eldritch Horror or Fast & Fhtagn: the Game of Cthuloid Street Racing. Of course, long-running games like Magic: the Gathering also reference his work, you could go on and on and on, as I just did. Certainly, when I was young, opening up that copy of Call of Cthulhu 4th Edition was an eye-opener with its amazing creepy art and nihilistic worldview, and I didn't have any cause to think about those issues. And the traditional solution was just to paper over the issues, but as the industry becomes more inclusive, it feels problematic to just keep ignoring our racist uncle. How you want to address it is gonna be a personal thing, but I think papering over is going to be increasingly insufficient if you're not looking to piss some folks off. Edit: It's also a lot easier to remove the racist themes from Howard or Disney because they're not essential themes to (most of) their work - I can certainly remember some pretty racist stories by Howard, and Song of the South no doubt exists, but they're not constant unavoidable refrains lining their body of work. Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 18:19
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That Old Tree posted:You know, the purpose of best friend websites Something Awful and RPGnet. ...
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Dec 7, 2018 18:49
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Alien Rope Burn posted:
To be honest I think it's very much a your mileage may vary thing. Howard was just as much extreme by the standards of his time as Lovecraft was - Novalyne Price recalled an instance when be enthusiastically defended lynching to her as a means of keeping the white man on top and the lower orders in their place. Howard's racism and his Ragnar Redbeard Might-Makes-Right worldview seems just as evident to me in his work, if not more so, as just that sort of constant unavoidable refrain; I can absolutely see that Lovecraft was being awful in Shadow Over Innsmouth and other stories but appreciate other stories of his as not touching on racial themes at all. They were both awful dudes with massively influential bodies of work, nothing to do but acknowledge that and take that into account. There's little point in deciding which of them is more offensive because that a) is in the eye of the beholder and b) obscures the basic fact that they were both kind of terrible.
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Dec 7, 2018 18:56
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moths posted:Something to keep in mind with Lovecraft racism chat is that it tends to hinge on him being exceptionally racist "for the time." No, this is bullshit. Lovecraft was considered too racist, even for the time. Even his friends remarked upon it. It's something most Lovecraft scholars agree on.
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Dec 7, 2018 19:05
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Cessna posted:... As "People who generally disagree with him on the internet" We are clearly a unified front.
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Dec 7, 2018 19:06
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Roland Jones posted:One of my favorite bits of cosmic horror is one where said cosmic horror actually represents capitalism; it's not only more relatable (assuming you aren't also a sheltered white dude who is afraid of basically everything, including the existential horror of oblivion, the ocean, people who don't look like you, people who don't look like you having sex with people who do look like you, the possibility that you might be related to people who don't look like you, Nikola Tesla, round architecture, the non-visible electromagnetic spectrum, and air conditioning) and an actual threat to people, but it also actually fits things better, such as the "enormous monster obliterating people without noticing or caring" stuff. Night in the Woods rules and is another great example of actually doing something with the idea of "cosmic horror." Lovecraft is racist, but he's also extremely boring. Nobody is actually scared by Lovecraft anymore. Cthulhu is a mass media marketing meme. That's been my longstanding issue with "Lovecraftian eldritch horror" - it's not horror, and it's usually not really interesting. Nobody's actually doing much with it. Like yes, Lovecraft has inspired D&D, in that there are monsters with tentacles and you take damage to an attribute sometimes when fighting them, and that's it. At the end of the day, all of Lovecraft's lore boils down to "just another monster," because that's all it ever was - just another monster, but look out, the monster is REALLY BIG, and people with melanin are involved too! Nobody gives a poo poo about actual "Lovecraftian lore" in Call of Cthulhu the game series, either, to be frank. They just like being turn of the century detectives with things going bad. Oh but the things going bad have trademarked names, so there you go. Cosmic horror in of itself is a dressing, not a centerpiece. You have to use it to actually do or say something. Otherwise, it's just another monster.
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Dec 7, 2018 19:09
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Warthur posted:They were both awful dudes with massively influential bodies of work, nothing to do but acknowledge that and take that into account. There's little point in deciding which of them is more offensive because that a) is in the eye of the beholder and b) obscures the basic fact that they were both kind of terrible. I'm not arguing which is more racist or more offensive, I'm not terribly interested in marking them on some kind of prejudice-ometer. I'm just saying Howard's work is more easily separated from racism- you can argue part of the themes of his work are part and parcel with colonialism and the might-makes-right sort of material, but they were more covert than overt. ProfessorCirno posted:Lovecraft is racist, but he's also extremely boring. Nobody is actually scared by Lovecraft anymore. Cthulhu is a mass media marketing meme. Cthulhu is the Bela Lugosi Dracula of our time, it's true.
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Dec 7, 2018 19:20
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Biomute posted:No, this is bullshit. Lovecraft was considered too racist, even for the time. Even his friends remarked upon it. It's something most Lovecraft scholars agree on. This is a time when black communities were openly massacred. Discrimination was the norm. Elements of the government feared that African Americans returning from WWI would be a vector for Bolshevikism. Lovecraft was racist in an unconventional way, and yes, some of his friends commented on it. But this was also a time when people were taking smug, smiling group photos against a backdrop of hanging or burning lynched black men. We look back at stuff like his cat's name and imagine it would be unacceptable by the 1920s. But his racism was absolutely typical of his era. I'm not saying he's less racist than you think he was, I'm saying the era was more racist than you've been lead to believe.
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Dec 7, 2018 19:31
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ProfessorCirno posted:Nobody gives a poo poo about actual "Lovecraftian lore" in Call of Cthulhu the game series, either, to be frank. They just like being turn of the century detectives with things going bad. Oh but the things going bad have trademarked names, so there you go. I'll have you know I enjoy bad situations happening to a wide variety of 1920s people, thank you very much.  But yeah, this is exactly on point. It's a visually interesting time period with some neat stuff going on, and it has a bunch of cool spooky gribblies to fight, and it's in the public domain, and above all, its familiar . Any actual horror is lost in favor of shooting Dholes with Tommy guns while you peel out in a 1920s car so you can stop the dread ritual in time. The Lord of Hats fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 19:39
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ProfessorCirno posted:Lovecraft is racist, but he's also extremely boring. Nobody is actually scared by Lovecraft anymore. Cthulhu is a mass media marketing meme. Alien Rope Burn posted:Cthulhu is the Bela Lugosi Dracula of our time, it's true. Which Lovecraft would probably hate, if he could somehow learn what's been done to his work and how it's seen and used eighty years after his death. Like, imagine Lovecraft being presented with a Funko Pop Cthulhu and having to come to terms with that being how his work is largely seen by the world. He'd throw a fit, then probably write a story about terrifying, haunted statuettes with bulbous heads and dead eyes, their repulsive forms inducing nausea in all but the most hardy or foolish of men or something. On the broader topic of his work, his racism, and how it's used and perceived today, I'm a little surprised how often "the Black Goat's" "real" name still gets used in Lovecraft merchandise nowadays when said name is really, really obviously a racial slur with some added nonsense. I mean, lot of nerds are terrible about addressing that kind of stuff in things they like, so it still popping up there is par for the course. FFG still using that name in things they sell, seemingly treating her as one of their main Great Old Ones even (Eldritch Horror included her in the core set over ones like Hastur and Nyarlathotep, for example) instead of quietly giving the other monsters more screentime and hoping no one notices or cares too much about her absence, on the other hand... Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 20:12
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The Lord of Hats posted:But yeah, this is exactly on point. It's a visually interesting time period with some neat stuff going on, and it has a bunch of cool spooky gribblies to fight, and it's in the public domain, and above all, its familiar . Roland Jones posted:Which Lovecraft would probably hate, if he could somehow learn what's been done to his work and how it's seen and used eighty years after his death. Like, imagine Lovecraft being presented with a Funko Pop Cthulhu and having to come to terms with that being how his work is largely seen by the world. He'd throw a fit, then probably write a story about terrifying, haunted statuettes with bulbous heads and dead eyes, their repulsive forms inducing nausea in all but the most hardy or foolish of men or something. Yeah, it is supremely funny to me that the reason Lovecraft's monsters - meant to drive you insane just by knowing they might exist - are famous is because...they're so widespread and well known.
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Dec 7, 2018 20:21
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ProfessorCirno posted:Lovecraft is racist, but he's also extremely boring. Nobody is actually scared by Lovecraft anymore. Cthulhu is a mass media marketing meme. That's been my longstanding issue with "Lovecraftian eldritch horror" - it's not horror, and it's usually not really interesting. Nobody's actually doing much with it. Actually he's difficult to read, there is a difference between being a being a boring hack and someone who managed to survive being thrashed for a hundred years (for sometimes good reasons: tackling his racism for example) and literally forgotten. You confuse him using literary devices in stories for pulp magazines, known for breezy reading, and being inept or not scary. The dude is motherfucking terrifying, like don't discount the racism, but actually read his work as an exchange of ideas, and not rolling poorly on a SANITY roll. moths posted:Lovecraft seems to stand out because we have unedited access to his preserved letters, stories, and personal thoughts. By disappearing into obscurity, he left no one to clean him up. He's a perfectly-preserved representative of his horrible era. Also that obituary done to end his career and bury his work colored a lot of things about him. For example.... Tuxedo Catfish posted:and women, and the ocean, and going outside, and architecture, and, like, the general concept of geometric curves None of this is remotely true and the result of that dumb 500 word hitpiece and public imagination. We know from HP Lovecraft's correspondence he was feminist (he supported women writers, Suffrage, and women politicians; thinking that the key flaw in his romanticized idea of England was it's sexism), he loved traveling and was a wide one at that...especially for the time (He constantly explored his town and county with long walks at night, so he could enjoy the sights unperturbed; he traveled on train to meet many of his friends and just go sight seeing, going to cities like New Orleans!), and Lovecraft's many fascinations were architecture and a lot of the horror in those passages, was to express how primitive or backwards people, or even just nature, were becoming frighteningly complex and advanced. Like so much of the man is mythology and folklore at this point, not actual fact. Yes, Lovecraft was squeamish about sex, but it was out of self loathing and sexism, we can read this from his actual wife who gossiped like hell about why their marriage fell apart and how weird he was, she actually commented that he was actually well endowed and very good at it, but was so insanely uncomfortable she had to always reassure him and initiate it. Yes, Lovecraft didn't get out that much (because of imaginary illnesses his aunts beat into his head), but he was far from an unpleasant and unlikable nerd with no friends. Despite being a weirdo, he had a large social circle that he would often visit face to face, who hold great esteem and respect for him, despite Lovecraft being a self confessed loser. Let's be honest here. Conan and other Robert E Howard fantasy and pulp body of work is JUST as openly racist as Lovecraft's work, as is most horror and fantasy work of the time. It's about dark skinned natives who are intrinsically evil and corrupt, as stated in multiple passages. It's stories about how, unfortunately, the White Aryan was forced to civilize himself to counter act the rising tide of dark and other skinned civilizations, or be destroyed. There is stuff there to soften that, like his works had extremely strong, independent women who could even best or outsmart loving Conan the Barbarian, and he constantly talked about Imperialism in his works and it's evils, but even Lovecraft had things to soften his rampant racism and classism in his works. Lovecraft just way more influential than Howard or the rest of his peers, on par with or even surpassing loving Edgar Allen Poe. And it's a lot easier to ignore Poe being a pedophile, than the kind of racism found in those works in the 20's.
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Dec 7, 2018 20:53
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Roland Jones posted:On the broader topic of his work, his racism, and how it's used and perceived today, I'm a little surprised how often "the Black Goat's" "real" name still gets used in Lovecraft merchandise nowadays when said name is really, really obviously a racial slur with some added nonsense. I've started playing the Arkham Horror LCG recently--it's a lot of fun, and it got me idly thinking about what would make for a good screenplay or one-shot in that kind of vein. I ended up with the (highly original) idea of a bunch of gangsters lying low after a bank job, except it turns out they've holed out in a town full of cultists. And then I realied that the Black Goat was the natural fit for this (Dark Young are tailor made to be terrifying things in remote backwoods, after all), and immediately started back pedaling and trying to think of alternatives or any way to avoid making someone say "Shub-Niggurath", because boy is that kind of a problem. She's a great GOO in everything except that godawful name. Honestly, they should just come up with a slightly different but close enough name and use that. It's not like Lovecraft's original works are sacred.
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Dec 7, 2018 21:45
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A lot of Lovecraft's monsters have epithets, and a lot of his names are deliberately meant to evoke certain languages and are just not especially authentic in that respect; you could probably get a fair amount of mileage out of simply translating the epithets into some dead language or another.
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Dec 7, 2018 22:07
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NutritiousSnack posted:Actually he's difficult to read, there is a difference between being a being a boring hack and someone who managed to survive being thrashed for a hundred years (for sometimes good reasons: tackling his racism for example) and literally forgotten. You confuse him using literary devices in stories for pulp magazines, known for breezy reading, and being inept or not scary. The dude is motherfucking terrifying, like don't discount the racism, but actually read his work as an exchange of ideas, and not rolling poorly on a SANITY roll. I think Cirno is, at least in the part you quoted, referring to uses of Lovecraft's stuff now for the most part; most of the FFG stuff ends up being kind of action-y more than scary, despite the aesthetic, for example. Combined with how overexposed his stuff is, so that whatever your initial reactions to his work were it's all very familiar now, and it loses a lot of its power. "A cult is being spooky and Cthulhu/Hastur/Yog-Sothoth/<expletive deleted> the Racial Slur, She Whose Name Brings Awkward Looks at the Game Table*, is trying to break through into our world and kill everyone" can only be done so many times before it gets old, and that's what most uses of his stuff nowadays amounts to. Regardless of what you think of Lovecraft's own writings, the Cthulhu Mythos** becoming a franchise, while great for the people marketing it and for making it known directly rather than indirectly through all the squid-headed things it inspired, isn't exactly conducive to horror. *During and after my last post I did a little Googling, and besides learning that "shub-niggurath pronunciation" is one of the top auto-complete results if you start typing her name, which says a lot on the matter in and of itself, and encountering a disappointing number of denials that said name is meant to be racist (including one that was basically, "yeah, Lovecraft was a massive racist, but there's no way he'd make a Great Old One's name a racial slur, that'd be stupid and undermine his own work"), I found a post from someone asking other people their thoughts on it because whenever they played Eldritch/Arkham Horror with new players and her name came up they got looks. This happened multiple times, apparently. **Apparently "Cthulhu Mythos" was Derleth's name for it, not Lovecraft's, and Lovecraft himself and others, if they were to refer to it as a whole with a name at all, were more likely to invoke Yog-Sothoth than Cthulhu. This is one of Lovecraft's few good opinions; Yog-Sothoth's whole "All-in-One and One-in-All", "existing across all time and space yet locked outside it" thing is neat and alongside Azathoth (which is more of a force than an entity or character itself) sort of epitomizes the whole Outer God thing, making it a good "representative" or primary/overarching figure. Cthulhu is a big dude who got owned by a boat and had to go take a nap again in his most famous story. He is the lamest Great Old One. Which makes it funny that he somehow became the main representative of Lovecraft's stuff, really. The Lord of Hats posted:I've started playing the Arkham Horror LCG recently--it's a lot of fun, and it got me idly thinking about what would make for a good screenplay or one-shot in that kind of vein. I ended up with the (highly original) idea of a bunch of gangsters lying low after a bank job, except it turns out they've holed out in a town full of cultists. And then I realied that the Black Goat was the natural fit for this (Dark Young are tailor made to be terrifying things in remote backwoods, after all), and immediately started back pedaling and trying to think of alternatives or any way to avoid making someone say "Shub-Niggurath", because boy is that kind of a problem. She's a great GOO in everything except that godawful name. Oh, yeah, if you need a Great Old One whose thing is making a lot of monsters and stuff, she works well, but, as has been stated, you really don't want to have her name come up. For completely different reasons than the in-fiction ones for entities like Hastur. Also, I've actually heard good things about the Arkham Horror card game as well. I kind of want to give it a try, but, well, money. Also inconvenience getting to town to actually see people and stuff. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 22:12
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