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Hellioning posted:I don't think it's a fair comparison. There are no mining stations that give food, you can get energy from trade value, and you can deal with a lack of minerals far more than you can deal with a lack of food. Robot empires don't even need to deal with food, which makes getting energy and minerals a lot easier. This is where you're wrong though, it is not in any way easier to actually get those minerals. That's the point we're making. Pretty much every single process machine empires use require minerals, and they don't have any way to get those minerals but the standard mining districts. It's not an even balance. Instead of just spiking up their resource collection, you could instead just add the same type of building food has access to and fix this problem in a way that requires you to devote planets and building slots and pops to it, but is at least infinitely scalable. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 20:43
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Yes, it's exactly this fact that research labs for robots use minerals that make minerals the bottleneck. You can make consumer goods through buildings, you can't make minerals through buildings. Mazz posted:You do have to supply amenities on a per planet basis, which is different but uses minerals as well. Try a machine empire, there's just a real lack of mineral inflow as you scale up that I think could be easily fixed. I know they said they aren't balanced well I'm just stating my case more or less. A mine style building that works like a farm would be a very workable solution IMO, because you have to devote planets to it and it takes time to scale up, but actually does scale up in a way that lets you break out into the end game. SO DO NORMAL PEOPLE. Here is how it works for gestalts: you want research, you build a lab, it turns minerals into research. Here is how it works for others: you want research, you build a lab, it turns commodities into research. To get commodities you need to build a *different* building, which turns MINERALS into commodities. Also everyone needs to supply amenities.
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Dec 8, 2018 20:45
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Have you actually played a machine empire past 2300? EDIT: I think we're honestly just talking past each other on some of this so let me use a screenshot to make my actual point:  Outside of converting the above to a machine world, there is no way for me to increase mineral production on that planet. Meanwhile every additional production building added from there, including research, uses minerals, and uses a lot of them. I have to basically stop developing planets so that I can develop other planets in an equally stunted way. That feels like very bad design to me, and adding something like a mine that adds +2 mining jobs for those left over building slots is a very workable solution given it has its own drawbacks. The machine world is a decent fix itself but at 10k energy and 3600/7200 per swap it's just not feasible as a solution in the reality of a 2500 end date. There should be more to alleviate this problem, like the above. That screenshot also highlights how overweighted society production is for a regular robot planet, since it comes from the capital jobs. Mazz fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 20:46
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At 2300 with a Fanatic Egalitarian/Materials empire with the Mechanist civic. Came in a little bit prepped having watched a few videos. So far, the biggest "fix this bullshit" thing I've encountered is accidentally destroying a building because I resettled too many robot pops to a new colony and dropped below the pop requirement for the slot. I've done that a few times. At worst, it should just disable the building, not destroy it. Ideally, it would disable the building and automatically reenable it when you reach the pop requirement again. The reason this is a pain in the dick is that it usually means I now have a handful of specialist pops who are "unemployed" because their building got destroyed. Because they're specialists, they won't work the open worker jobs I already have. They will (very, very slowly) convert to worker pops, but by that point the growth will have recovered and I'll have rebuilt the building, so... bleh. I'm paying more attention to that now but it'd be great if the building auto-disabled/re-enabled. Even better if there was a warning/confirmation on the resettle screen that your resettlement would break a building, to avoid doing it in the first place. I'm enjoying it so far, but I don't have enough of a handle on it to say whether it's actually Good, or just novel. The trade route thing seems good at least -- I'm having to think much more about where to build starbases, when to build them, and how to built them out. I've mostly settled on 1) building weapon bases at chokepoints with hostile neighbors, and 2) very selectively building trade bases (2x Trade Hubs and 2x Guns, or Missiles or Hangar Bays) in spots which will capture and protect lots of trade value/future colonized planets within 2 jumps of the base. I'm much lower on shipyards than I was pre-2.2. My intuition is that a lot of the balance/AI complaints are valid; Robot Empires seem bad, and while I don't feel crippled by taking Mechanist it sure doesn't feel like it's all that helpful. I'm only playing on Captain, but the AI hasn't kept up well in power at all. At this point, there's a couple that are equivalent in fleet power, and a couple that are equivalent in tech power, and that's it. Meanwhile, I'm at 6x my admin cap, eating 70% tech penalty, 115% unity/tradition adoption penalty, and 233% campaign and leader cost/upkeep penalties. And I've focused most of my efforts on expansion, planet colonization/development, and trade. I've built like 1? 2? resource labs on planets? And have only kept enough fleet built to serve as deterrent and to clear out drones and poo poo? So it seems like a bad sign that I'm out-teching and out-fleeting 90% of the AI empires. Again, only on Captain difficulty, but that's what I usually played on pre-2.2 (because I'm bad at games) and it feels much easier to stay ahead of the AI in the early game so far. I haven't been struggling with developing planets so much. I just make sure there's excess housing and amenities, and otherwise wait for jobs to be full before building a new district or building. And I've got a fair number of empty building slots and unupgraded buildings, because building/upgrading things as soon as it's available is a good way to tank your economy -- first, because those new/upgraded buildings will take a bunch of your workers from your districts, and second, because those new specialist jobs will also consume resources. So I'm trying to be cautious and pay attention to what kinds of economic ripples a new/upgraded building will cause before ever hitting the build button. I've spent periods running deficits in at least one of every primary/secondary resource except minerals and alloys. I've been using the market liberally to cover while I push new development to fix whatever deficit I'm facing. It felt a little like a knife's edge at points early. It still does, though now I'm also regularly dumping 1000 food to speed new colony growth and 2000-5000 energy to terraform planets before colonization, and I'm running other edicts, policies, and species rights that could probably be tuned back if needed. Pop growth is definitely king. I'm running as many things as I can to boost it, but that's kind of necessary given I'm a slow-breeding Mechanist empire. Maybe the right setup would result in pops growing too fast for development, but it's hard to imagine for me right now. More pops seem always more better.
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Dec 8, 2018 20:54
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pokie posted:Plz tell us how to do that? Because I agree - it's hard to satisfy end game pops due to lack of jobs etc. Ok, I figured it out. Edit the file in Steam\steamapps\common\Stellaris\common\defines to change MAX_PLANET_BUILDING_SLOTS to 24.
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Dec 8, 2018 20:58
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pokie posted:^^^ Holy gently caress, that's great. Thanks for sharing! Check your empire management screen with your leader and empire-wide bonuses, it'll be there. It should be in the mouse over of the worlds you consecrate but it's still easy enough to access.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:00
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Mazz posted:Have you actually played a machine empire past 2300? Yes. Minerals are far less of a problem than Energy is. I turn excess minerals to energy and every world maxes out generator districts before mining districts and I'm running both cap overload and production targets. Granted, I picked the Rockbreakers civic as my 3rd one, but even prior to that, my mineral production was outpacing my energy production by a huge margin. 
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Dec 8, 2018 21:02
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Nice! I was waiting for someone to do a much better job! This won't actually give you more tiles though, for that you'll need to go into /common/defines/defines and look for POPS_BUILDING_SLOTS = 5 # The amount of pops needed to unlock a new building slot BASE_PLANET_BUILDING_SLOTS = 1 MAX_PLANET_BUILDING_SLOTS = 20 Changing that to what ever you'd like. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 21:04
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Cynic Jester posted:Yes. Minerals are far less of a problem than Energy is. I turn excess minerals to energy and every world maxes out generator districts before mining districts and I'm running both cap overload and production targets. Granted, I picked the Rockbreakers civic as my 3rd one, but even prior to that, my mineral production was outpacing my energy production by a huge margin. I really wonder if it comes down to planets (and districts they provide) available to you then, because I solved my energy problem really early. Are you reducing pop upkeep? I still think a mine/power plant option like food already has, at least for robots, would solve both of these problems though.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:04
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Mazz posted:Have you actually played a machine empire past 2300? This isn't something that is tied to you playing a machine race though. Your minerals costs, outside of the actual production of your robots, are not higher than the costs incurred by other empires. Needing to run your empire differently late game than in 2.1 is something we're all learning to do. Also, just like before, planets tend towards certain district types. Focusing more on cold worlds should net you more mining districts, while wet worlds tend towards agriculture. I don't know off-hand if robots can but the adaptability tree (replaces diplomacy for hive minds/purifiers) has a thing that lets you roll for an additional planetary feature (the things that add districts).
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Dec 8, 2018 21:06
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ZypherIM posted:This isn't something that is tied to you playing a machine race though. Your minerals costs, outside of the actual production of your robots, are not higher than the costs incurred by other empires. Needing to run your empire differently late game than in 2.1 is something we're all learning to do. A more fluid way to change districts would also be a decent answer. I'm not against other options, I just don't think the current system works very well if the answer is "ignore half of that planet's available resources forever," at least until terraforming/machine worlds. That pushes you too much into constant expansion instead of developing/specializing planets. Constantly grabbing and half finishing planets is not my playstyle, and I'd prefer options to not play that way is all. Mazz fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 21:07
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Mazz posted:A more fluid way to change districts would also be a decent answer. I'm not against options, I just don't think the current system works very well if the answer is "ignore half of that planet's available resources forever". But you do have options. You've got more jobs than pops on that world, so it isn't even close to being developed. As it grows, you could produce more energy, and grow food to either run through a food converter or sell on the market for energy (to either use for upkeep or buy other things). Sure, it isn't just raw minerals, but again you colonized a world with only 4 mining districts.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:10
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Mazz posted:I really wonder if it comes down to planets (and districts they provide) available to you then, because I solved my energy problem really early. Are you reducing pop upkeep? Maximum reduced upkeep.  I've been selling minerals for the entire game and its not like my planets have absurd amounts of mining districts available. I probably average almost twice as many generator districts as i do mining ones(with city districts being a 2-3 of at most).
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Dec 8, 2018 21:11
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Holy poo poo my First League Ecumenopolis went online just as new species migrated to my empire, letting me colonize all these cold climate worlds now. I am going to turn this planet city into the biggest loving forgeworld. This is it, with robots being easy to make for agriculture/mining and intricate systems to gently caress around with that simulate the logistics of running massive societies through specialization and industrialization, I've finally seen the potential of Stellaris realized as an space empire builder. What a fantastic patch, great loving show Wiz!
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Dec 8, 2018 21:11
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Wow, habitats are straight up hot garbage now. I mean they used to make great solar farms, but now they don’t really do anything useful.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:14
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How do you handle colonization stumping growth in the capital? As soon as I colonize my first planet my capital goes down to 1.1 growth per month due to emigration, which is horrible.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:15
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ZypherIM posted:But you do have options. You've got more jobs than pops on that world, so it isn't even close to being developed. As it grows, you could produce more energy, and grow food to either run through a food converter or sell on the market for energy (to either use for upkeep or buy other things). Sure, it isn't just raw minerals, but again you colonized a world with only 4 mining districts. True, but I can't say I really like being kind of forced into growing excess resources I can't use to sell elsewhere. Like I understand the realism of that mechanic but it really shouldn't be the only eventual option besides machine worlds. I'd prefer being able to more direct alter the production of the planets to fix these problems with like mines or power plants as I mentioned. A more direct, immediate solution with its own drawbacks, but seperate from the market if I wanted to go that route. Also aren't some builds locked out of the market? This is enough of an answer though I'll just leave it at that, gonna go in circles from here. Worthwhile discussion though. Cynic Jester posted:Maximum reduced upkeep. Do you have any planets with food production you aren't using? You can offload the bio-reactors to other worlds, which I found can help a lot over time. Mazz fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 21:15
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Cynic Jester posted:Maximum reduced upkeep. Well I'm not sure how you managed to get all that mineral resource early, must have been some great planets. Like Mazz, I've got plenty of energy and wish I had an extra +200 minerals, or as in your case, an extra +400 raw mineral income. That's pretty significant. 
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Dec 8, 2018 21:17
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canepazzo posted:How do you handle colonization stumping growth in the capital? As soon as I colonize my first planet my capital goes down to 1.1 growth per month due to emigration, which is horrible. Tough it out, you pretty much have to. Prioritize getting raw materials and developing your districts so you'll have the food to sustain that 10 pop needed for the upgrade to the colony base, and the minerals you need to build it. Once it's up, the immigration will slow down and your stuff will grow normally.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:18
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God I want a tiny outliner mod. Just something to remove the sector dividers would do it. Having to scroll to keep an eye on which planets have unemployed pops is annoying as gently caress.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:18
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How's the mid to late game performance so far? I used to start running into trouble with hitching around about 2350 on a medium or large map.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:19
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Cynic Jester posted:God I want a tiny outliner mod. Just something to remove the sector dividers would do it. Having to scroll to keep an eye on which planets have unemployed pops is annoying as gently caress. I do find myself looking for a "Reassign all unemployed pops to this planet" button on a planet, or a "Move all unemployed pops to planet [x]" from the resettle screen, because having to do migration micro is really bad. It's the same micro from 2.1. You shuffle the robots from the planets you are keeping as robot assembly planets to the ones you are specializing and gotta click 3-4 dudes every few months. I'm glad I don't have to deal with migration and pop specialization so those are all great. Just wish there was a "Send all unemployed dudes here" button somewhere.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:20
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Mayor Dave posted:So uh I think I'm gonna have to ramp the difficulty back down, I only had 5k fleet power when the Khan rolled up I feel like the crisis aren't really tuned right. In my current game on admiral literally every other empire that isn't a FE is pathetic to me. I was mopping up the galaxy and started cleaning up a marauder empire when it triggered the Khan to spawn in that system, instantly outnumbered me 10:1 and destroyed my 300ish or so naval cap of ships. Ships are so much more expensive now and it doesn't seem like the parts of the game that just get to cheat in ships from the ether are really in line with what's reasonable.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:26
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Well I'm not sure how you managed to get all that mineral resource early, must have been some great planets. Like Mazz, I've got plenty of energy and wish I had an extra +200 minerals, or as in your case, an extra +400 raw mineral income. That's pretty significant. I hold off on making high tier employment buildings until my generator and mining districts are maxed out, with the exception of a machine assembly plant and an energy nexus, with maintenance depots to keep amenities above 0 as needed. Mazz posted:Do you have any planets with food production you aren't using? You can offload the bio-reactors to other worlds, which I found can help a lot over time. It's from a station module that I never got around to replacing. I used to have food production in all my stations to turn into food, but I replaced them with hyperlane speed boosts instead. Ciaphas posted:How's the mid to late game performance so far? I used to start running into trouble with hitching around about 2350 on a medium or large map. I haven't ran into any issues so far, but I'm on the regular map size.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:27
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Back Hack posted:Wow, habitats are straight up hot garbage now. I mean they used to make great solar farms, but now they don’t really do anything useful. Build out all their districts as +housing, then jam them full of alloy foundries or civilian fabricators. They work decently well as either A) MAX TRADE VALUE B) research centers or C) finished goods production centers. If you're constrained for space, habitats are a decent way to let your planets focus on raw extraction and to offload your finished goods production into spaaaaaace.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:27
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Mazz posted:True, but I can't say I really like being kind of forced into growing excess resources I can't use to sell elsewhere. Like I understand the realism of that mechanic but it really shouldn't be the only eventual option besides machine worlds. I'd prefer being able to more direct alter the production of the planets to fix these problems with like mines or power plants as I mentioned. A more direct, immediate solution with its own drawbacks, but seperate from the market if I wanted to go that route. Also aren't some builds locked out of the market? Yea I can understand that desire, especially coming from 2.1 where you could layer over all the tiles with mines. The thing is, your machine worlds sort of *are* a late game solution for you already. Also there is always an internal market open even as a genocidal race. I think they're locked out of the wider galactic one, but they aren't turbo-hosed by no market at all. canepazzo posted:How do you handle colonization stumping growth in the capital? As soon as I colonize my first planet my capital goes down to 1.1 growth per month due to emigration, which is horrible. I don't think you should be losing any overall population growth. You might be able to resettle people to your capital, or maybe consider using the 'distribute luxery goods' planetary decision.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:28
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Cynic Jester posted:God I want a tiny outliner mod. Just something to remove the sector dividers would do it. Having to scroll to keep an eye on which planets have unemployed pops is annoying as gently caress. Hit the cogwheel in the top right of the mod outliner and remove sectors. Your plants will clump together like pre 2.2
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Dec 8, 2018 21:28
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Cynic Jester posted:I hold off on making high tier employment buildings until my generator and mining districts are maxed out, with the exception of a machine assembly plant and an energy nexus, with maintenance depots to keep amenities above 0 as needed. Yeah I think your decision to slow roll science really helped here in a bunch of ways. Because of the way prioritizing science drains minerals and pushes the other costs up, it would have been better to defer those labs until the econ was healthier. So I think robots want to get the phat resources first and then go science a bit later. You also have a ton of unity generation so obviously there's ways to work around that too while keeping growth going. 200 extra pops is real significant so that early game advantage translated into endgame.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:29
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Tried a Determined Exterminator start. Unfortunately my leader didn't start out with any traits, but what's even more frustrating is that the Mass Produced trait isn't applying to the build speed of the robots. Only the Rapid Replicator civic.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:33
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Aethernet posted:Guys Early on this isn't a valid chocie as you're more likely to be putting things where they can go, right now, rather than hold off for future efficiency. Partly this is why I'm liking my FanatEgal/Material Mechanist Space commies. I don't need to worry about my Miners and Farmers loving off.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:35
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Tried a Determined Exterminator start. Unfortunately my leader didn't start out with any traits, but what's even more frustrating is that the Mass Produced trait isn't applying to the build speed of the robots. Only the Rapid Replicator civic. Yeah I saw this bug as well. No bonus from Mass Produced unless it's hidden by the tooltip, and the Expansion civic doesn't give you 1 extra pop on planets. Both are bummers.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:37
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A lot of people are reporting bad stuttering on every daily tick, something I'm seeing myself as well. Think I'm going to wait for a patch.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:40
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Yeah I saw this bug as well. No bonus from Mass Produced unless it's hidden by the tooltip, and the Expansion civic doesn't give you 1 extra pop on planets. Both are bummers. Mass produced is applied, just not listed. If you math it out, the final value indicates it is applied.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:42
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Cynic Jester posted:Mass produced is applied, just not listed. If you math it out, the final value indicates it is applied. I didn't feel like mathing it last night thanks for double checking, then it's just the civic that's bugged
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Dec 8, 2018 21:43
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Spent some influence on a campaign, a few weeks later it comes time to elect a new chairmushroom for my empire and I now lack the influence to intervene. So of course the level 7 governor of my capital system is elected, taking with him 14% job production that was keeping my already tight economy in the green. Bad times.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:45
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Also, the tiny outliner mod is working just fine even though it gives the warning.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:45
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Xenophile is now a brilliant ethos, from both the xenofucking, the bonuses to migration and the concomitant ability to settle all planets without caring about habitability. The only drawback that it pairs nicely with genemodding, but you can still only mod one race at a time, and you now have a nearly endless list of half-snails.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:47
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 Refugees are kind of bugged too.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:48
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:
yup, i got a ton of those pop ups constantly, and the ticker up top was always filled to the edges with refugee announcements
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Dec 8, 2018 21:57
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Ciaphas posted:How's the mid to late game performance so far? I used to start running into trouble with hitching around about 2350 on a medium or large map. Late game is bad, mid game is fine. Don't play on maps above medium. Back Hack posted:Wow, habitats are straight up hot garbage now. I mean they used to make great solar farms, but now they don’t really do anything useful. Really? The research districts seem sweet.
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Dec 8, 2018 22:07
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