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white sauce posted:The FBI has been telling Giuliani everything that’s going on, so maybe you should try and keep up with what’s happening around you. The NY FBI field office is not privvy to Mueller's actions in advance. Anyone still bemoaning his investigation as an ineffective Repulican-led whitewash at this stage is entirely delusional. Will Trump himself end up in serious legal trouble? Probably not. Will it lead to him being removed from office? gently caress no. But Mueller has *already* damaged him politically and everything points to things getting worse for Trump the further the investigation goes on.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:59
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Kavros posted:They absolutely have not been doing so, and it would be a very interesting thing indeed to explain how Giuliani had been receiving a complete and unimpeded pipeline of information from the Mueller investigation and then been so completely and repeatedly flatfooted by extremely major developments which had been planned out months in advance before being executed, such as the Cohen raid. Perhaps he just simply forgot certain things after breakfast and forgot to report them to Trump, every day, for months?  Comey admitted it when he testified in congress. He thinks the FBI office in NY has been leaking to Giuliani. Why would you put it past any of these bureaucratic idiots to do something corrupt like this.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:00
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giuliani is a loving moron with a loving moron for a client that's why even if he has the info ahead of time he can't help but come off like a loving moron.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:01
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Chinese Gordon posted:The NY FBI field office is not privvy to Mueller's actions in advance. Anyone still bemoaning his investigation as an ineffective Repulican-led whitewash at this stage is entirely delusional. The mental gymnastics needed to claim that Mueller is an effective and righteous investigator and also isn’t going to bring Trump and his criminal empire down is truly baffling. Groovelord Neato posted:giuliani is a loving moron with a loving moron for a client that's why even if he has the info ahead of time he can't help but come off like a loving moron. 100% true. Which is why Democrats being careful to avoid harming Trump is loving laughable.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:02
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white sauce posted:
Comey suspecting that there have been leaks from the FBI to Giuliani is a completely different declaration than "the agency has been informing Giuliani about everything that’s going on with the investigation" -- do you not see that, in particular? Do you not see how nothing about what you just said backs up the idea that Giuliani is seeing everything happening in the Mueller investigation?
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Dec 9, 2018 20:04
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ewiley posted:(except in the healthcare insurance and processing industry, but gently caress them) Bullshit. More people will be needed to manage the increase in healthcare patients when EVERYONE CAN loving GET A GODDAMNED SIMPLE CHECKUP. (Not yelling at you just yelling into the void.)
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Dec 9, 2018 20:05
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Bottom Liner posted:this is really fuckin dumb mate
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Dec 9, 2018 20:07
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Kavros posted:Comey suspecting that there have been leaks from the FBI to Giuliani is a completely different declaration than "the agency has been informing Giuliani about everything that’s going on with the investigation" -- do you not see that, in particular? Do you not see how nothing about what you just said backs up the idea that Giuliani is seeing everything happening in the Mueller investigation? Oh wow, yea I gues there’s a real possibility the director of the FBI is wrong about this one, but also a huge chance he is correct, especially since Giuliani and the FBI like BFFs.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:08
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You're not really paying attention to what I'm saying, which is making it seem more like you don't understand what you're saying. It's just not a sustainable process of argument to go from a statement that Comey made where he suspects that there's some leaks from the FBI to Giuliani (which, of course, I fully believe) to asserting that Giuliani is aware of literally everything that Mueller is doing -- especially as an argument that Mueller's investigation being largely classified serves no purpose. Moreover, it does nothing to answer the question of why Mueller is even doing this at all if he has no intention of releasing the results of his investigation. Is arresting and bringing charges and convictions for this investigation even convincingly compatible with what you are asserting?
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Dec 9, 2018 20:08
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white sauce posted:The mental gymnastics needed to claim that Mueller is an effective and righteous investigator and also isn’t going to bring Trump and his criminal empire down is truly baffling. I'm not in the Nothing Matters camp but the end point of Mueller's investigation is not prosecuting Trump. It's making a report and recommendation. It's up to our institutions to actually act on Mueller's evidence and there is a real, looming possibility our institutions are irrevocably broken and will fail us. mango sentinel fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:09
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Tibalt posted:Hmm, basic principle of democracy, or some random guy with bad opinions on art. Hmmmmmmm. We should tip-toe around the criminal president while he turns the government into his personal crime machine. The voters will reward us for this.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:09
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white sauce posted:The mental gymnastics needed to claim that Mueller is an effective and righteous investigator and also isn’t going to bring Trump and his criminal empire down is truly baffling. The impeachment process is entirely political and is it overwhelmingly likely that Trump will not be indicted while he is a sitting president. Republican senators will not vote to convict unless Trump loses the support of the chuds, and nothing Mueller says will do that. That doesn't mean the Dem house shouldn't impeach, because they absolutely should as soon as it becomes likely a net political positive to do so. I also don't think Mueller is some kind of superhero, just a competent cop/prosecutor with a massive hard-on for Doing Things By The Book Chinese Gordon fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:11
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Kavros posted:You're not really paying attention to what I'm saying, which is making it seem more like you don't understand what you're saying. It's just not a sustainable process of argument to go from a statement that Comey made where he suspects that there's some leaks from the FBI to Giuliani (which, of course, I fully believe) to asserting that Giuliani is aware of literally everything that Mueller is doing -- especially as an argument that Mueller's investigation being largely classified serves no purpose. Republicans aren’t your friend, dude, and I don’t think Bobby Mueller is planning on stopping the entire GOP criminal syndicate.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:12
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Chinese Gordon posted:The impeachment process is entirely political and is it overwhelmingly likely that Trump will not be indicted while he is a sitting president. Republican senators will not vote to convict unless Trump loses the support of the chuds, and nothing Mueller says will do that. Well or unless he is going to cost the Republican senate for decades.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:13
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Mooseontheloose posted:Well or unless he is going to cost the Republican senate for decades. That's functionally the same thing. As long as Trump has 80-90% support among GOP voters, no senator who wants to stay in a job is going to vote to convict.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:15
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Tibalt posted:Hmm, basic principle of democracy, or some random guy with bad opinions on art. Hmmmmmmm. A basic principle of democracy should be "we can impeach this guy whenever we want for the simple reason that he doesn't have support from the majority of people."
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Dec 9, 2018 20:16
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white sauce posted:Republicans aren’t your friend, dude, and I don’t think Bobby Mueller is planning on stopping the entire GOP criminal syndicate. The issue isn't whether Republicans are my friend, and that's great, because they aren't. It's about whether what you are repeatedly claiming is even remotely credible to assert. Since you're now completely sidestepping my questions, I think it's getting kind of clear you're talking out of your rear end. We could leave it at that, I guess.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:17
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Chinese Gordon posted:The impeachment process is entirely political and is it overwhelmingly likely that Trump will not be indicted while he is a sitting president. Republican senators will not vote to convict unless Trump loses the support of the chuds, and nothing Mueller says will do that. Then I guess the question should be why won’t this competent cop write a report that will make even the most ardent supporters of Trump turn on him? I mean he literally sold out our country to the Mafia, right? That’s why I’m saying it’s stupid to wait for the Mueller report. The only group capable of taking down the gigantic criminal ring is the Democrats, so they better step up to the plate and start hitting hard, otherwise they’re gonna be losing the game no matter how many more people vote for Team Blue.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:17
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Willa Rogers posted:Kinda like how the CA general assembly voted for single-payer--twice!--a decade ago, when they knew Arnold would veto it (which he did--twice!), only to stall it in committee once Brown was elected governor. This happens with regressive causes as well. The GOP voted for Obamacare many times when they knew he would veto it. A lot of politics is, unfortunately, just theater.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:20
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ewiley posted:This is true in so many ways. I still e:*don't* think $15 would be a 'living wage' at this point, but it certainly reduces the direct costs to businesses to provide a healthcare benefit. Despite offsetting with higher taxes, I'm sure UHC would be nothing but a boon to hiring (except in the healthcare insurance and processing industry, but gently caress them) Ah but it would also be a boon to worker mobility and that makes capital really sad. The number of people sticking it out at a poo poo job because it offers benefits slightly less poo poo than the individual market is gigantic.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:20
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Kavros posted:The issue isn't whether Republicans are my friend, and that's great, because they aren't. It's about whether what you are repeatedly claiming is even remotely credible to assert. It’s easy to sidestep your questions because you’re babbling incoherently. There’s a good reason to believe that the mueller investigation ain’t gonna do poo poo to Trump and the people tasked with investigating him don’t think white collar crime and transnational criminal rings are a big deal.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:21
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Giggy posted:A basic principle of democracy should be "we can impeach this guy whenever we want for the simple reason that he doesn't have support from the majority of people." Not a single example in the last 20 years and 10 days come to mind.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:21
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The Glumslinger posted:Lol, imagine not cheering this lmao France loving owns
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Dec 9, 2018 20:22
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white sauce posted:It’s easy to sidestep your questions because you’re babbling incoherently. Don't project, it makes you look like a Republican.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:23
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white sauce posted:Then I guess the question should be why won’t this competent cop write a report that will make even the most ardent supporters of Trump turn on him? I mean he literally sold out our country to the Mafia, right? Do you honestly think the chud base will turn on Trump no matter what's plausibly (so obstruction, financial stuff, possibly collusion) in the report? If they won't, then the Senate will not vote to convict under any circumstances. That doesn't the Dems shouldn't impeach;they should, after the report is released. The Mueller Report will almost certainly still matter politically. Chinese Gordon fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:23
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Tibalt posted:Boy, I can't conceive of any possible implications or consequences from letting the elected President be removed from office for purely partisan reasons once the opposing party wins control of the legislature. Literally none. The democrats should actually protect the criminal president, to show that they really care about the principles of democracy
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Dec 9, 2018 20:24
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Tibalt posted:Boy, I can't conceive of any possible implications or consequences from letting the elected President be removed from office for purely partisan reasons once the opposing party wins control of the legislature. Literally none. that president was overwhelmingly popular and it's why it backfired. i know i've posted about it at least a half dozen times but i guess it gotta do it a full dozen. Groovelord Neato posted:the red box is when the impeachment proceedings happened (ending with acquittal in the senate). the orange line is where 538 has trump's approval rating right now. his disapproval is about 20 points higher (nearly 30 in some polls) than clinton's was.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:25
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Mooseontheloose posted:Don't project, it makes you look like a Republican. Cool, this means I’m constantly dunking on a bunch of wonky pragmatic centrists 
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Dec 9, 2018 20:26
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Groovelord Neato posted:that president was overwhelmingly popular and it's why it backfired. i know i've posted about it at least a half dozen times but i guess it gotta do it a full dozen. Plus “got a blowjob and then perjured himself about said blowjob” doesn’t sound quite as serious as the things Trump has done to most people.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:28
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Frabba posted:I feel like this is a more difficult rake for him to avoid at this point than you’re giving him credit for. Trump spent how long asking (and being rejected by) every respected/conservative lawyer he could find to join his defense team? I love that he finally landed with Giuliani, it is just so funny to me that every time Guiliani opens his mouth in defense of trump he knows that he was, what, 11th on the list? God, I'm laugh even now.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:29
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Groovelord Neato posted:that president was overwhelmingly popular and it's why it backfired. i know i've posted about it at least a half dozen times but i guess it gotta do it a full dozen. The only reason you could possibly think it's better to shoot off an article of impeachment without investigating or doing due diligence is if you think Donald Trump didn't actually commit any crimes. Which, I mean... I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs. Edit: Because someone is going to push their glasses up and say "ashtually" at me. Probably already too late.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:30
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Majorian posted:Plus “got a blowjob and then perjured himself about said blowjob” doesn’t sound quite as serious as the things Trump has done to most people. right. even ignoring the stormy daniels and russia stuff, trump's got at least two dozen things that are worse than that. it's just weird that people keep bringing up clinton when his approval/disapproval ratings were almost the exact opposite of trump's. Tibalt posted:The president wasn't overwhelmingly popular, considering his party did poorly in the midterms, and his chosen heir lost the presidency. You're confusing the cause, and the effect, and the forward motion of time. The impeachment proceedings made Clinton more popular. It made him more popular because the American voter doesn't like it when the impeachment process is used for purely partisan reasons. his approval rating went down after the impeachment or can you not read the graphic i made. his party didn't do poorly in the midterms, you're confusing 98 for 94. the dems gained seats in 98. wikipedia even puts it this way: quote:The 1998 United States House of Representatives elections were part of the midterm elections held during President Bill Clinton's second term. They were a major disappointment to the Republicans, who were expecting to gain seats due to the embarrassment Clinton suffered during the Monica Lewinsky scandal, and the "six-year itch" effect observed in most second-term midterm elections. However, the Republicans lost five seats to the Democrats, but retained a narrow majority in the House. A wave of Republican discontent with Speaker Newt Gingrich prompted him to resign shortly after the election; he was replaced by Congressman Dennis Hastert of Illinois. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:30
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Chinese Gordon posted:That's functionally the same thing. As long as Trump has 80-90% support among GOP voters, no senator who wants to stay in a job is going to vote to convict. Not quite though, if you can get "independents" (with all the caveats of what that means) to swing your way, the Repulicans could lose control of the Senate. Trump is the stone that can sink them and if they know it will cost them, they will find a way to get rid of him.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:31
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White Sauce you truly are a natural wonder. Attenborough will one day narrate a special about you. 
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Dec 9, 2018 20:31
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Literally burst out laughing imagining Obama being an open criminal like Trump is and the Republicans tip-toeing around him trying not to rock the boat too much to appease the pragmatic voters
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Dec 9, 2018 20:32
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Tibalt posted:The president wasn't overwhelmingly popular, considering his party did poorly in the midterms, and his chosen heir lost the presidency. You're confusing the cause, and the effect, and the forward motion of time. The impeachment proceedings made Clinton more popular. It made him more popular because the American voter doesn't like it when the impeachment process is used for purely partisan reasons. People defended Clinton because they thought it was ridiculous to impeach a president for a blowjob. This was when Democrats were saying, "Americans are so concerned with the private matters of their politicians." It's a side note, but I do wonder what it would be like if Monica Lewinsky happened today.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:33
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white sauce posted:It’s easy to sidestep your questions because you’re babbling incoherently. When the issue became a difference between one of your earlier assertions (that Mueller was being secretive about his indictments) and what was really going on (Mueller was being secretive about his investigation) you stated that Trump already knows literally everything that Mueller is up to, as a way of essentially asserting that Mueller's secrecy serves no purpose and is a reason to label him as a flawed dude. To back up your claim that Trump already knows literally everything about Mueller's investigation, you said that it was true because Comey suspected that there was a leak from the FBI to Giuliani. You never produced a coherent answer as to why that backs up your completely different claim, and you never produced a coherent response to the question about why Mueller would have been able to get away with specific things that caught him mostly or entirely unaware, such as the Cohen raid, if Trump & Co were fully aware of what was happening in the Mueller investigation. Giuliani absolutely does not have a leak that has informed him about everything Mueller was doing, and you made the claim that he did. Trump is not aware of everything Mueller is doing. Nothing that has happened is consistent with your claim. Nothing that has happened is consistent even with a claim that Trump knew even half of what Mueller was keeping secret from the Administration. So you fall back on projecting at me about incoherence.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:33
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KickerOfMice posted:White Sauce you truly are a natural wonder. Attenborough will one day narrate a special about you. Definitely, and it’s doubly hilarious that I’m more correct in my takes than many of the wonky DnD types
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Dec 9, 2018 20:35
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Ralepozozaxe posted:Trump might maybe sign things in an attempt to look good, but the republican led senate sure as poo poo won’t. There might be some things McConnell can't strangle in the crib (other than, you know, basic "keep the lights mostly on another six months" bills); it was easier for him when the House and Senate could point at each other and say "not our fault". 53 Rs is a tough barrier to surmount if McConnell doesn't want it surmounted, though. I'm thinking maybe DACA specifically? There were some signs that he was having a tough time keeping his caucus wrangled on that.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:35
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white sauce posted:Definitely, and it’s doubly hilarious that I’m more correct in my takes than many of the wonky DnD types Have at the world, you truly insane fireball! 
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Dec 9, 2018 20:36
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