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OhFunny posted:That's sure something to watch. The US ambassador might not have given Saddam the ok to invade Kuwait, but what she did say was that the United States "doesn't have an opinion" on the Arab conflicts, and that the US wouldn't start an economic war with Iraq. Basically the US gave Iraq a lot of bad signals because our state department didn't have the wherewithal to establish a clear policy regarding Iraq's grievances with Kuwait.
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Dec 10, 2018 15:46
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:So is trying to equate intervention in the Gulf War and the "intervention" (against what, exactly?) in 2003. a single narrative line of thought involving the exact same powers within a decade of time
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Dec 10, 2018 15:46
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Cerebral Bore posted:You denying facts doesn't make them less true. Also you, personally, argued about five posts ago that the motives of the intervening power don't matter. So if you want to pursue this line of argument, I'll have to demand a detailed and complete proof that Saddam would, in fact, have kept them migrant workers around in the same conditions. The reason the serf underclass existed in the first place is so they could be employed as an expandable workforce with poo poo working conditions and little to no pay. Why would those incentives suddenly disappear under Saddam?
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Dec 10, 2018 15:48
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THS posted:a single narrative line of thought involving the exact same powers within a decade of time Which hostile action of Iraq was the cause for the 2003 intervention?
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Dec 10, 2018 15:49
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Which hostile action of Iraq was the cause for the 2003 intervention? 911
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Dec 10, 2018 15:53
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"A foreign military occupation is actually cool and good, and should not be interfered with" - the wise posters in this thread
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Dec 10, 2018 15:53
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Prav posted:911 Was Bush an Iraqi operative?
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Dec 10, 2018 15:54
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Was Bush an Iraqi operative? what the gently caress are you even doddering about
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Dec 10, 2018 15:56
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:"A foreign military occupation is actually cool and good, and should not be interfered with" - the wise posters in this thread I always wonder what white noise would look like written out so thanks for your posts. Now I know.
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Dec 10, 2018 15:56
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Which hostile action of Iraq was the cause for the 2003 intervention? the claim was that Iraq violated resolution 1441
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Dec 10, 2018 15:58
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:The reason the serf underclass existed in the first place is so they could be employed as an expandable workforce with poo poo working conditions and little to no pay. Why would those incentives suddenly disappear under Saddam? Because Iraq had no shortage of manpower, you dumbass. Serf underclasses exist in the gulf states because they have tiny populations of citizens and hence a lot of money to throw around per capita, so they lure in and enserf people so they don't have to work themselves. Nothing of the sort ever existed in Baathist Iraq, because it had a large, young population and not a lot of money to throw around per capita. So you're positing that Saddam would have kept around a bunch of poor unskilled workers for no reason when he had plenty in his own country, which is clearly ludicrous hence he had no motive. You'd likely see this if you took of your ideological blinders for even a moment, but you can't because your ideology demands that Saddam was literally a Saturday morning cartoon villain who'd just naturally pick the most evil option every time, so you can go on believing in the Good War. And incidentally, even if Saddam would have kept serfdom exactly as is, which he wouldn't, then at least 170000 serfs managed to escape according to your own sources which seems to be a pretty big positive, so your argument still doesn't work.
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Dec 10, 2018 16:00
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Prav posted:what the gently caress are you even doddering about "Bush did 911" is about as valid as "Iraq did 911"
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Dec 10, 2018 16:03
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drat we got some ironclad-rear end logic gettin thrown around
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Dec 10, 2018 16:04
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:"Bush did 911" is about as valid as "Iraq did 911" no poo poo it was a bullshit reason you loving moron
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Dec 10, 2018 16:05
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:"A foreign military occupation is actually cool and good, and should not be interfered with" - the wise posters in this thread not by the US, which has the motivation to intervene in the worst possible way then later murder millions
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Dec 10, 2018 16:06
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It's pretty obvious at this point that no one in this thread is willing to accept that it is permissible to intervene in response to a foreign invasion and occupation. Nothing I say will persuade you otherwise. Because apparently I am blinded by ideology (which ideology? whatever) and can't see that after encouraging conflicts in the region for decades, the US should have just leaned back and refused to help Kuwait. There really is nothing more to say here. God willing, this is my last post in this thread.
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Dec 10, 2018 16:10
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masha'allah.
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Dec 10, 2018 16:10
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inshallah
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Dec 10, 2018 16:12
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imo Saddam should have just ended the invasion and withdrawn after the UN issued Resolution 678
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Dec 10, 2018 16:16
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Allah grant us all the courage to deny the consequences of our arguments and storm away in a huff.
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Dec 10, 2018 16:16
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“which ideology” lol
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Dec 10, 2018 16:28
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when that interventionist liberal mindset is so natural that it flows through you like warm waves
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Dec 10, 2018 16:30
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If nothing else this here meltdown is very illustrative of how liberal interventionism works when it can't bullshit its way past things anymore.
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Dec 10, 2018 16:54
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:It's pretty obvious at this point that no one in this thread is willing to accept that it is permissible to intervene in response to a foreign invasion and occupation. Nothing I say will persuade you otherwise. Because apparently I am blinded by ideology (which ideology? whatever) and can't see that after encouraging conflicts in the region for decades, the US should have just leaned back and refused to help Kuwait. The issue isn't whether it would be theoretically just to defend another country from an invasion purely out of the goodness of your heart and leave once it's done, it's that US has never done that
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Dec 10, 2018 17:14
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Dec 10, 2018 17:20
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Guns? kuwait was a major financial backer of iraq during the iran-iraq war, loaning them money so they could buy weapons. when the war turned into a stalemate and finally ended iraq was left with lots of military infrastructure and indebted to the likes of kuwait who were calling in that debt. so saddam invaded iraq's weak neighbor in an attempt to wipe out that debt. actions do have consequences. Darkman Fanpage has issued a correction as of 17:27 on Dec 10, 2018 |
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Dec 10, 2018 17:22
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:It's pretty obvious at this point that no one in this thread is willing to accept that it is permissible to intervene in response to a foreign invasion and occupation. Nothing I say will persuade you otherwise. Because apparently I am blinded by ideology (which ideology? whatever) and can't see that after encouraging conflicts in the region for decades, the US should have just leaned back and refused to help Kuwait. lol no please keep posting this is amazing. You were sharing such delightful opinions in the I/P thread too, please tell us more! 
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Dec 10, 2018 17:23
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This is one of the more boring meltdowns i've caused
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Dec 10, 2018 17:37
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Jose posted:This is one of the more boring meltdowns i've caused pls don't steal paulie socc's posting valor
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Dec 10, 2018 18:31
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:It's pretty obvious at this point that no one in this thread is willing to accept that it is permissible to intervene in response to a foreign invasion and occupation. Nothing I say will persuade you otherwise. Because apparently I am blinded by ideology (which ideology? whatever) and can't see that after encouraging conflicts in the region for decades, the US should have just leaned back and refused to help Kuwait. 
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Dec 10, 2018 18:48
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freckle posted:pls don't steal paulie socc's posting valor he got mad i posted that video in the UKMT in dnd. he's now quoting lightning knight from this thread in the DnD israel palestine thread because he was getting mocked here lol
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Dec 10, 2018 19:12
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Jose posted:he got mad i posted that video in the UKMT in dnd. he's now quoting lightning knight from this thread in the DnD israel palestine thread because he was getting mocked here lol extremely lol
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Dec 10, 2018 19:16
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like most things in the middle east this thread went to poo poo immediately after an israeli touched it lol
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Dec 10, 2018 19:18
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HerraS posted:like most things in the middle east this thread went to poo poo immediately after an israeli touched it lol 
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Dec 10, 2018 19:20
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HerraS posted:like most things in the middle east this thread went to poo poo immediately after an israeli touched it lol lmao
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Dec 10, 2018 19:23
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HerraS posted:like most things in the middle east this thread went to poo poo immediately after an israeli touched it lol lmao god drat.
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Dec 10, 2018 19:28
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Prav posted:911
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Dec 10, 2018 19:44
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THS posted:the point about liberal interventionism is the constant exhortation to “do something” without any analysis of the motivation of the empire doing the intervention. if you view the gulf war by itself then maybe you can try to justify it. that’s dumb though, that’s babby analysis. instead intervention has to be viewed as part of a series of cynical and opportunist geopolitical moves by the current global nazi monster (the united states) so we can see it in the context of what the intervention meant after saddam hussein became no longer useful, post his failed invasion of revolutionary iran you are correct that U.S. imperialism is short-sighted and opportunistic, and it is constantly "tilting" and "signaling" around, with the principle goal in the middle east of (a) hostility to iran and (b) creating markets for weapons, investments, and keeping various countries dependent on the united states made possible via courting influence in political parties, key industries, military branches and intelligence agencies. immediately before the gulf war, the U.S. did not see saddam as no longer useful. on the contrary, the U.S. opted to hedge closer to iraq, considering the fact that saddam had been weakened by the iran war and was himself willing to reach some kind of closer partnership with the united states, which also didn't want to rely too much on the saudis (again, better to have a generalized atmosphere of "chaos" which opens up pathways for the flow of weapons, investments, superpower dependencies that make U.S. imperialism possible...). you are also aware of how before the iraqi invasion of kuwait, the U.S. ambassador to iraq was telling them that their border issue with kuwait was none of "our" concern. but i think this overture to saddam basically blew up in the bush administration's face; they didn't expect him to actually invade a U.S. ally. the ambassador would later say "we never expected they would take all of kuwait." i believe she was telling the truth. you know -- we'll let you revise the border a bit, to stop the horizontal drilling, etc. that was the "signal" to saddam that the U.S. was willing to pay that price for his dependency. this is kissinger diplomacy. which is natural enough, because the bush administration staffed itself with his people from kissinger, associates. the goal is "mutually-assured destabilization." no war but no peace. no winner or loser. just maximum "realpolitik." and saddam's refusal to play a lot with the tilt-and-signal game, or misinterpreting the U.S. "signal" as a green light, is why he was punished. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 20:47 on Dec 10, 2018 |
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Dec 10, 2018 20:05
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HerraS posted:like most things in the middle east this thread went to poo poo immediately after an israeli touched it lol
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Dec 10, 2018 20:08
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HerraS posted:like most things in the middle east this thread went to poo poo immediately after an israeli touched it lol 
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Dec 10, 2018 20:09
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