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The web of incentives is the most compelling part of 18xx, at least for me. I'd say if you want to play 2p just pick another game.
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Dec 13, 2018 03:46
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Same, but if you absolutely must, 18CZ is decent with 2, I'm told.
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Dec 13, 2018 03:55
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Dancer posted:Same, but if you absolutely must, 18CZ is decent with 2, I'm told. Yeah CZ is fine with the automata.
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Dec 13, 2018 04:02
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ok, thought that might be the feedback. bummer, but many thanks, and I’ll definitely check out cz
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Dec 13, 2018 04:04
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Chill la Chill posted:I would trust a beer nerd's taste much more than my own common person's taste. (My taste is bad for the record.) There's a great art critic documentary I've seen a couple times, "Mona Lisa Curse," and the art critic goes into the faults in the pluralism that's been accepted in the understanding and appreciation of works of art. It's not to say that everyone shouldn't be allowed to have their own taste and opinions, but it should be extremely heavily weighted towards the aficionados who have more expertise in the subject. Sure, but I think jadedness is a thing too, and in the beer example reviewers may end up chasing (or at least prizing) extreme or rare experiencs over well balanced/drinkable beer, just as in this hobby I think long time enthusiasts who are active parts of online communities may gravitate to heavier games than people just approaching the hobby as something to play casually with friends would enjoy. I'm not saying enthusiasts are wrong for liking what they like, or that a first time beer drinker or gamer is somehow a better judge than an expert, but I don't think complex games are objectively superior because of that preference by some long time gamers--they just fill a different niche than the lighter family style games. Gloomhaven may be the "best" game I've played, but it's also a daunting fucker that's sitting in my closet collecting dust because I can't find the right circumstance to play it, leaving me hoping the app version ends up being complete enough that it'll let me play it as a computer game (which even the game's biggest fans have introduced elements of by using apps to cut down on busy work). All of that said, I still think trying to "correct" the BGG rankings by adjusting for complexity is super reductive and absurd.
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Dec 13, 2018 04:05
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Nude Hoxha Cameo posted:speaking of 18xx: I've played 1846 with 2. It's fine, but I don't think the genre is great at 2.
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Dec 13, 2018 04:18
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CZ is great and I actually like the small map for 2 compared to the AI player, which makes me wish I had 3 instead. And yeah I agree there’s something to be said about chasing the “high” of ever more complex games. I realized I was doing a bit of it too when I got into wargames but have dialed it back and realized most of the games I truly enjoy would be categorized as midweight. 18xx is midweight besides length, Splotters are midweight, and the wargames I mostly play are midweight. Maybe there’s an optimal depth:complexity ratio that probably lies somewhere in the midweights, even though Go’s depth:complexity is in the absurdly simple. But, part of truly enjoying and embracing a particularly hobby involves getting into some more complex things. There’s depth that can only be expressed in the many movements and cancellations possible in [accepted best fighting game right now] that couldn’t be done in Smash. I’d argue the many small repercussions and head scratchers that make 18xx actions so interesting is because there are so many levers to pull with a basic set of rules. The Winsome games get most of the spirit of 18xx, but together with other rules they provide so much more interesting feedback for such simple separate actions. But that’s definitely something that can be overdone. And that’s where the newer Euros have started to lose me, I think. These games have added a lot of complexity with no depth. And sometimes even if they add depth, you end up with a giant unplayable wargame with logistics that mimics actions that literally takes offices full of professionals who’ve made it their career 
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Dec 13, 2018 04:33
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How's Fog of Love?
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Dec 13, 2018 05:23
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pospysyl posted:2018 really was the year of the roll and writes. My personal game of the year is either Ganz Schon Clever or Roll Player: Monsters and Minions, and the critical favorites of the year seem to be Railroad Ink or Welcome To. Speaking of 2018 roll and writes, I just got in my copy of Fleet The Dice Game in and gave it a quick solo whirl, and it's a real good roll and write/engine builder. Solo rules are well put together. It's also the heaviest roll and write I've played, the decision pool is pretty deep. And the cardboard lighthouse dice tower from the deluxe edition is goddamn adorable.
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Dec 13, 2018 05:37
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PMush Perfect posted:How's Fog of Love? I thought it was clever, with good writing, good production, and an outstanding tutorial. But it's not much of a "game" in my opinion. It's a well written and well executed  story generator that, also in my opinion, is worsened by playing it to win (in a gamer sense).There is a lot of preening about uniqueness, but it doesn't actually do anything new or unusual mechanically speaking. That being said, it's solidly produced, outstandingly written (which is critical to story-type games), encourages interacting and playing together, and is beautifully documented. As mentioned, the tutorial loving sparkles and the hobby as a whole would shine like a star if more games and designers emulated and strove for those elements.
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Dec 13, 2018 05:40
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Cool, I'm thinking of talking my wife into giving it a go with me at some point. (It was SUSD. SUSD got me again.)
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Dec 13, 2018 05:57
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Gutter Owl posted:And when you sacrifice aesthetics for functionality, you get a spreadsheet that is impossible to table. I agree, but aesthetics are less important to me than gameplay, at least at this point in my participation in the hobby. I’m not opposed to aesthetics entirely, I just prefer clarity. I like the 18MEX redesign Chill posted, aside from some of the problems pointed out. But the charters/shares/borders/terrain costs/privates having some style looks cool and can be subtle enough to not distract from the play. Anyway, mostly replying so you read this hot take from explaining Meltwater to a friend: “...so it’s Cold War Fortnite, got it”
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Dec 13, 2018 06:31
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al-azad posted:Speaking of top 100, here is what BGG's rankings look like when you correct for a complexity bias. Personally I think this isn't a good correlation and that the true bias is with regards to time which is even relevant in his sample data of 1-complexity games. I think removing complexity bias is not as interesting as removing the recency bias that this guy has also shown in part 1. BGG users like more complex games and that's ok. I actually like family and midweight games a lot more than the average gamer, because i often play in groups of mixed experience level. And I think that the top lightweight games list on bgg is just as weird and distorted by hype cycles as it is for heavier games.
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Dec 13, 2018 08:55
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I thought that complexity bias was the idea that complicated games tend to get rated higher than they would otherwise “deserve” because the higher complexity gets perceived as evidence of greater depth and therefore being a deeper and better game. Like games having a miniatures bias where nicely sculpted minis (and possibly boob armour) = higher rating, but for complicatedness. I don’t know to what extent it exists or actually skews ratings but I can see where the idea comes from.
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Dec 13, 2018 10:38
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Fellis posted:I agree, but aesthetics are less important to me than gameplay, at least at this point in my participation in the hobby. I’m not opposed to aesthetics entirely, I just prefer clarity. I like the 18MEX redesign Chill posted, aside from some of the problems pointed out. But the charters/shares/borders/terrain costs/privates having some style looks cool and can be subtle enough to not distract from the play. how dare you. it's cold war PUBG, you loving philistine. (That said, initial tests started almost exactly a year before playerunknown's released in early access, so I can at least demonstrate I wasn't riding that trend.)
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Dec 13, 2018 12:01
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al-azad posted:Speaking of top 100, here is what BGG's rankings look like when you correct for a complexity bias. Personally I think this isn't a good correlation and that the true bias is with regards to time which is even relevant in his sample data of 1-complexity games. The problem with BGG's complexity is that, even more so than ratings, it means absolutely nothing and has no metric attached to it. 1889 has a weight of 3.93 while Mage Knight is 4.26. What this tells me is that 1889 is relatively light for 18xx players while the average Euro player found Mage Knight to be far heavier than their normal fare. Averaging the ratings by weight ends up kicking down complex games that hit a wider audience like Food Chain Magnate. I can't get that page to fully load for some reason BUT something tells me it dethrones Gloomhaven and that's wrong!
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Dec 13, 2018 12:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I can't get that page to fully load for some reason BUT something tells me it dethrones Gloomhaven and that's wrong!
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Dec 13, 2018 12:28
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The Eyes Have It posted:I thought that complexity bias was the idea that complicated games tend to get rated higher than they would otherwise “deserve” because the higher complexity gets perceived as evidence of greater depth and therefore being a deeper and better game. Like games having a miniatures bias where nicely sculpted minis (and possibly boob armour) = higher rating, but for complicatedness. It’s just a flawed way to look at things because BGG’s complexity is actually more useless than its rating.
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Dec 13, 2018 13:15
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Gutter Owl posted:how dare you. Also I think my order from Hollandspiele just left the US, so yay? Might get it next week. Probably will get hit with customs that will delete all my savings as well!
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Dec 13, 2018 14:10
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I've been trying to get my old gaming group back together and one of the games we've been interested in playing again is Shadows of Brimstone. The game has so many cards though that it can be a real pain to set/clean up. Are there any sorts of programs out there that the card information and/or picture can be put into so we can use that to draw cards instead of having to worry about all the decks?
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Dec 13, 2018 14:15
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Gutter Owl posted:how dare you.  you should lean into it pitch a prototype to Epic, sell out, get that bread
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Dec 13, 2018 15:44
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Tekopo posted:Ah right, so you copied H1Z1:KotH instead, got it. As far as I can tell nothing has happened to my order. I feel like it’s unlikely I get it by Christmas 
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Dec 13, 2018 17:01
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Jordan7hm posted:As far as I can tell nothing has happened to my order. I feel like it’s unlikely I get it by Christmas When did you order? I’ve seen a lot of social media posts about people getting their stuff lately, I assume they ordered on Dec 1. I ordered Dec 2 and haven’t seen anything either. It is print on demand, and I think Hollandspiele posted that the christmas sale has been very popular. E: my regret is not jumping on the AIT prize card upgrade, they don’t know if they are going to do another print run of them
Fellis fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 13, 2018 |
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Dec 13, 2018 17:04
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Does anyone have any details about GMT's upcoming Spacecorp? I suddenly got interested when I heard that it attempts to mirror developments from 2025 and spans three different eras for 200 years of development. That sounds really interesting to me, since I thought that it was going to be about far-future rather than near-future developments.
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Dec 13, 2018 18:06
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deadwing posted:Speaking of 2018 roll and writes, I just got in my copy of Fleet The Dice Game in and gave it a quick solo whirl, and it's a real good roll and write/engine builder. Solo rules are well put together. It's also the heaviest roll and write I've played, the decision pool is pretty deep. And the cardboard lighthouse dice tower from the deluxe edition is goddamn adorable. I'm usually wary of dice versions of classic board games. I tried out the Istanbul and Castles of Burgundy dice games at PaxU last year and found both of them really dumbed down versions of the original games. Maybe because I've never heard of the original Fleet I'd find the dice game more compelling.
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Dec 13, 2018 18:20
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Lurking for xmas ideas for my brother who will be coming home from his second 2 year stint in the peace corps Is there somewhere to buy a new or used version of Root for $100~ and have it ship in a reasonable amount of time? It appears to be all the rage and thus sold the hell out
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Dec 13, 2018 18:20
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It turns out collecting a ton of subjective, gut based metrics and putting them together doesn't magically turn them all in to data.
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Dec 13, 2018 18:48
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Fellis posted:When did you order? I’ve seen a lot of social media posts about people getting their stuff lately, I assume they ordered on Dec 1. I ordered Dec 2 and haven’t seen anything either. It is print on demand, and I think Hollandspiele posted that the christmas sale has been very popular. Dec 1 I’m not really that worried.
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Dec 13, 2018 19:01
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I ordered dec 1st and got mine this Monday, so they are getting stuff out
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Dec 13, 2018 19:36
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CirclMastr and I have come to the conclusion that the only way you could play Gloomhaven physically with four players is if at least one of the players involved is a sub with an administration fetish. This came from three games of Tabletop Sim Gloomhaven and a discussion about whether or not the Steam version will completely supplant the physical version.
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Dec 13, 2018 22:39
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PMush Perfect posted:CirclMastr and I have come to the conclusion that the only way you could play Gloomhaven physically with four players is if at least one of the players involved is a sub with an administration fetish. This came from three games of Tabletop Sim Gloomhaven and a discussion about whether or not the Steam version will completely supplant the physical version.
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Dec 13, 2018 22:44
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Tekopo posted:The steam version is mechanically different from the tabletop version though.
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Dec 13, 2018 22:45
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Yeah based on their original announcement everyone was surprised by how similar the digital version is looking but it's a separate game.
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Dec 13, 2018 22:48
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PMush Perfect posted:CirclMastr and I have come to the conclusion that the only way you could play Gloomhaven physically with four players is if at least one of the players involved is a sub with an administration fetish. This came from three games of Tabletop Sim Gloomhaven and a discussion about whether or not the Steam version will completely supplant the physical version. We have played a ton with four players, and two of us definitely do the bulk of the heavy lifting admin wise but splitting the duties once people get up to speed and their time isn't 100% spent on their own turns helps a lot. With four there are just so drat many monsters.
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Dec 13, 2018 22:57
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http://www.cephalofair.com/2018/08/the-big-announcements.htmlquote:And just as a point of clarification, it will be a true port of the board game. We are doing our best to capture all the mechanics of the original game, while still taking all the unnecessary bookkeeping of monster movement off the shoulders of the players. It will look and play like a tactical RPG with the card-based mechanics of Gloomhaven. To start, we will just have a random dungeon generator for early access, but the full campaign will be implemented, and multiplayer is on the priority list as well. It’s a lot of work, but I’m sure Flaming Fowl is up to the task!
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Dec 13, 2018 23:02
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Oh, hey. That would be nice. I guess? Solo Gloomhaven would scratch an interesting itch.
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Dec 13, 2018 23:20
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PMush Perfect posted:CirclMastr and I have come to the conclusion that the only way you could play Gloomhaven physically with four players is if at least one of the players involved is a sub with an administration fetish. This came from three games of Tabletop Sim Gloomhaven and a discussion about whether or not the Steam version will completely supplant the physical version. We've been playing with 4 for most of the year and it's super easy. The thing is that learning how monsters move isn't just administration, it's one of the core ways that you get better at the game - if you don't understand monster movement you'll get mauled or be way less effective at murdering them. And because you get to decide collectively how monsters move when they have multiple options it's a group job anyway - generally it's an interactive 'okay i do my thing, now the guards move like so and so - this one can go here or here, anyone prefer one or the other?' 'yeah i want that space' 'if you put him here I can push him into the lava' 'but if he goes there he'll block the other guard from getting in' back and forth rather than one person's boring job. (We did have to pull out the checkout last night to figure out whether a monster would walk onto lava or take disadvantage from an attack tho)
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Dec 13, 2018 23:48
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PMush Perfect posted:CirclMastr and I have come to the conclusion that the only way you could play Gloomhaven physically with four players is if at least one of the players involved is a sub with an administration fetish. This came from three games of Tabletop Sim Gloomhaven and a discussion about whether or not the Steam version will completely supplant the physical version. We played a few hundred hours of Gloomhaven with 4 people; the only time it felt onerous was missions with splitting enemies (slimes/tentacles) or when players had too many summons. We weren't using any of the apps, but we did have replacement life trackers for players and monsters. I tried once on Tabletop Sim and I have no idea how you would actually complete a game that way. I'm sure it gets easier as you get more used to TTS, but there's just way too many things to manipulate and look at there to try doing it with clumsy digital hands. I also started writing my own Gloomhaven digital version at one point. Nothing like trying to code out rules to make you realize how ambiguous the rules are (in actual play, we very seldom had rules questions/issues - but, at least at the time, nobody had any kind of full rules for how monsters chose targets and attacked in odd situations). jmzero fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Dec 14, 2018 |
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Dec 14, 2018 00:00
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I wouldn't be surprised if the digital version ends up having a more complicated set of tiebreakers for where monsters end up, or even a "if there's a tie, pick randomly". Player choice works great when the players are picking up the monster and moving it anyway, but is quite disruptive if the computer is in the middle of moving a bunch of monsters and then stops to ask you about it.
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Dec 14, 2018 00:39
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Eh most monsters in a turn don't make you choose and if it's a monster move phase and it says hey choose one of these hexes, then this monster hits you for six, take it or lose a card, etc. Seems okay.
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Dec 14, 2018 00:53
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