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Those outlets are switched & only for running the hanging shoplights, they won't see regular use for anything else. I could have saved some money by hardwiring them into boxes but this way I can replace or move them without too much trouble sometime in the future.
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Dec 11, 2018 20:22
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A semi-related question. I was digging into the code required by my area, and I put in a call to the AHJ to get clarification, but it *appears* that we're using NEC 1996. Is that unusual? Is it worth it to go to the supervisors meetings and trying to amend the code to use a more modern version of the NEC? I don't have a problem going and agitating for change, but I don't know if it really matters one way or another if NEC 1996 or one in the last decade was used.
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Dec 11, 2018 20:27
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Nevets posted:Here's what I did in mine. I'm sure there are a few code violations where I tried to save a few bucks or hours but it's alot better than the existing stuff. Yup, you can't run non metallic cable perpendicular to the underside of joists like that, it needs to be run either through them, or on running boards. Also, the power cable looks way too close to that bundle of network cables.
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Dec 11, 2018 20:30
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I helped a co worker run a new circuit for a heated floor he was installing. He wasn't sure if he was gonna end up needing a 15 or 20 amp breaker, so I ran 12g wire and threw in a 20 amp breaker. Turns out it's more than he needed, and a 15 amp breaker would have been fine. There's no harm in it being over-sized though, right?
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Dec 11, 2018 20:42
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Slugworth posted:I helped a co worker run a new circuit for a heated floor he was installing. He wasn't sure if he was gonna end up needing a 15 or 20 amp breaker, so I ran 12g wire and threw in a 20 amp breaker. Turns out it's more than he needed, and a 15 amp breaker would have been fine. There's no harm in it being over-sized though, right? It's fine, you just can't extend that circuit with any 14g wire in the future.
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Dec 11, 2018 21:02
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Comrade Gritty posted:A semi-related question. I was digging into the code required by my area, and I put in a call to the AHJ to get clarification, but it *appears* that we're using NEC 1996. Is that unusual? Is it worth it to go to the supervisors meetings and trying to amend the code to use a more modern version of the NEC? I don't have a problem going and agitating for change, but I don't know if it really matters one way or another if NEC 1996 or one in the last decade was used. Why are you concerned about this? There are fewer requirements in the older code book, and you are free to build above code - which would include a newer version of the book - and should in most cases, because code is a really lovely bare minimum.
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Dec 11, 2018 21:09
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Motronic posted:Why are you concerned about this? There are fewer requirements in the older code book, and you are free to build above code - which would include a newer version of the book - and should in most cases, because code is a really lovely bare minimum. I was looking up where AFCI should be used and while looking up that, it occurred to me I didn't know what version of the NEC my township used. When I found out it was NEC 1996, I figured that probably it would be a good idea to use something more modern. I'm not really concerned for my own house, I can require electricians and such work to a higher bar, but presumably some non-zero subset of the population of my neighbors and other community members are getting work done only to pass inspection and nothing more, so advocating for raising the minimum standards, as lovely as they are, seemed like a good idea. It's a moot point though, the Code Inspector for my township called me back and told me that all of PA uses at least NEC 2014, so I guess that trumps the fact NEC 1996 is written into our township's code.
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Dec 11, 2018 21:22
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Comrade Gritty posted:It's a moot point though, the Code Inspector for my township called me back and told me that all of PA uses at least NEC 2014, so I guess that trumps the fact NEC 1996 is written into our township's code. Unless something has changed in the last few years your code inspector is wrong. PA is a commonwealth, so local municipalities are free to adopt whatever code they want. And when I say "free" I mean "financially pressured to do what the commonwealth says", but that still means there needs to be an adoption. It's possible you were looking at an initial adoption and not the amendment(s) where later version(s) were adopted.
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Dec 11, 2018 22:13
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Motronic posted:Unless something has changed in the last few years your code inspector is wrong. Heh, interesting. I was looking at https://ecode360.com/31110403, although I don't know for a fact that is being updated. Though I think you're right, because looking at that further, while § 5-105 adopts the NEC 1996 as the electrical code, later on in § 5-204 it looks to me like they adopted the PA UCC, except where my township was more strict than the PA UCC was (and until such a time as the PA UCC was more strict). Probably I just misunderstood when he said "PA", he was probably referring the UCC and I thought he meant literally all of PA.
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Dec 11, 2018 22:38
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Comrade Gritty posted:Cool thanks! I don't know the code reference, but (in single/double occupancy residential) exposed NM from the ceiling joists to a panel in an uninhabited room (utility, garage) is allowed where I'm at. Exposed NM (properly fastened) is allowed in unfinished rooms.
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Dec 12, 2018 05:17
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:When I spoke with electricians, the main concern with exposed cable was stuff like how likely it was to get whacked by stray tools, grabbed by people on ladders, etc. Basically you don't want a minor accident to yank a conductor out of its position (hence cable clamps) or to cut through the insulator and expose a live surface. I think the main concern is that someone may want to have a finished ceiling someday.
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Dec 12, 2018 05:24
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Blackbeer posted:I think the main concern is that someone may want to have a finished ceiling someday. I'm not sure that's the reason, because code allows for attaching NM to the bottom of joists like that, i.e., without running boards, if it's bigger than 6 (or maybe 8, I forget) AWG. At that size, even if something hit the cable inadvertently, it probably won't pull it out at its ends, unless it was hit with a truck or something ridiculous.
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Dec 12, 2018 15:34
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Special A posted:I'm not sure that's the reason, because code allows for attaching NM to the bottom of joists like that, i.e., without running boards, if it's bigger than 6 (or maybe 8, I forget) AWG. At that size, even if something hit the cable inadvertently, it probably won't pull it out at its ends, unless it was hit with a truck or something ridiculous. You're right (I think it's 6/2, 8/3, and larger though I always drill holes in joists for those too), and I'm sure the code is mostly due to having installations where the romex was stapled less than it should be and was hanging down. I just have a tough time picturing it getting damaged by getting pulled out at the ends if it's stapled properly. If people are going to hang stuff on or grab wires on the bottom of the joist, they're probably going to do the same when it's 3" higher and in the joist.
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Dec 12, 2018 16:13
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Motronic posted:PA is a commonwealth, so local municipalities are free to adopt whatever code they want. "Commonwealth" has no legal distinction. Whether municipalities in a state are free to adopt whatever code they want depends on whether the state has passed a law saying otherwise, whether the state calls itself a commonwealth or not doesn't mean anything. Municipalities in PA get to define their own governmental structure and authority because the state of PA has passed laws saying they can, not because it says "commonwealth" on the license plates. Basically I'm just saying that if you live in Kentucky, Massachusetts, Virginia, or Pennsylvania, you can't conclude "Since I live in a commonwealth, code requirements are set by my town and not by the state."
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Dec 12, 2018 18:42
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Phanatic posted:"Commonwealth" has no legal distinction. Whether municipalities in a state are free to adopt whatever code they want depends on whether the state has passed a law saying otherwise, whether the state calls itself a commonwealth or not doesn't mean anything. Municipalities in PA get to define their own governmental structure and authority because the state of PA has passed laws saying they can, not because it says "commonwealth" on the license plates. There always seems to be someone who likes to argue this, but it's a historical and (state) constitutionally-backed ethos/distinction. Changing it, while possible, requires massive constitutional changes. I'm not claiming it's a "magic word." It's a clue that "this place probably doesn't work top-down like most other places."
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Dec 12, 2018 19:19
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Motronic posted:There always seems to be someone who likes to argue this, but it's a historical and (state) constitutionally-backed ethos/distinction. No, it's not. The Pennsylvania state constitution itself alternately uses the words 'commonwealth' and 'state' self-referentially. The very first line of the original 1776 state constitution of Pennsylvania is "A declaration of the rights of the inhabitants of the commonwealth, or state of Pennsylvania." You won't find the word 'commonwealth' anywhere else in the original state constitution, and all the various enumerations of the rights of the people of that state use the word 'state,' like in Article III, which states "That the people of this State have the sole, exclusive, and inherent right of governing; and regulating, the internal police of the same." There's no constitutionally-backed distinction between Commonwealth and State, it has no legal or constitutional significance whatsoever (other than that it's the official name), and it does not mean that because the state is a commonwealth, municipalities get to pick their own codes. quote:I'm not claiming it's a "magic word." It's a clue that "this place probably doesn't work top-down like most other places." It doesn't mean that. It's just a title. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Dec 12, 2018 |
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Dec 12, 2018 19:30
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Nothing you said contradicts a single thing I said, but if you need to be right, go ahead. You win.
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Dec 12, 2018 19:36
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Slugworth posted:There's no harm in it being over-sized though, right? Just on your wallet. Thicker wires = more $ B-Nasty posted:It's fine, you just can't extend that circuit with any 14g wire in the future. ...without downgrading the breaker to a 15 amp.
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Dec 12, 2018 22:14
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The outlet in my bathroom stopped working this morning. I tried flipping the reset/test buttons on it and changing the fuse, but that doesn’t seem to have worked. I had to leave, but the house I live in is really old and crappy, and the landlords seem to do fixes and maintenance on the cheap. Should I be worried about a short or something setting the apartment on fire? I don’t wanna come home to that.
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Dec 13, 2018 16:20
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Changing the fuse? Yeah that's an old place. The most likely answer is that the GFCI is bad, but there's no way to troubleshoot without a voltmeter.
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Dec 13, 2018 16:43
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GFCI outlets protect everything on the circuit downstream of them. It's possible the circuit has multiple GFCI outlets on it (e.g. the circuit shares outlets with the kitchen), and you only reset one of them. So that's something that should be fairly easy to check.
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Dec 13, 2018 17:18
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:GFCI outlets protect everything on the circuit downstream of them. It's possible the circuit has multiple GFCI outlets on it (e.g. the circuit shares outlets with the kitchen), and you only reset one of them. So that's something that should be fairly easy to check. A GFCI should never be protected by an upstream GFCI. If this is his situation, it will probably require someone with a bit of knowledge and a voltmeter to untangle. Being a rental I would suggest calling your landlord.
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Dec 13, 2018 17:26
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This being a rental it's very possible sometime ago the landlord or owner was told 'every outlet in the kitchen & bathrooms on the countertops or near a water source needs to be protected by a gfci' and what they heard was 'every outlet in the kitchen & bathroom must be a gfci' and spent $60 in parts and $0 in labor doing it themselves instead of $30 in parts and $60 in labor for an electrician to change only the ones necessary.
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Dec 13, 2018 17:39
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gently caress it then, as long as my place isn’t going to burn down, I can go without a hair dryer for a bit. Also, yeah, fuses - the house is typical Massachusetts slum housing.
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Dec 13, 2018 17:50
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Pollyanna posted:The outlet in my bathroom stopped working this morning. I tried flipping the reset/test buttons on it and changing the fuse, but that doesn’t seem to have worked. I had to leave, but the house I live in is really old and crappy, and the landlords seem to do fixes and maintenance on the cheap. Should I be worried about a short or something setting the apartment on fire? I don’t wanna come home to that. How loose are the slots in the outlet? Do plugs just fall out?
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Dec 13, 2018 19:16
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angryrobots posted:The available fault current can be very high, and while rare the meter or stabs/wire lugs can break and come out with the meter. shame on an IGA posted:What level flash gear do you guys require for a residential meter pull, is that a full bunny suit job? Old post, but speaking of available fault current... Spotted this at an apartment building today. Can't see I've ever seen that many meters in one place before (it's mixed residential/retail, and this is just sitting next to the parking garage)  What kind of earth-shattering kaboom would we get if somebody hamfisted something there? Would there even be anything left of them?  angryrobots posted:On another occasion, a new employee set a meter into a direct phase-to-phase fault because the electrician had wired the bus bars together to feed all the receptacle circuits off a drop cord. Bet he/she never forgets the meaning of PPE after that. So what failed first? The drop cord, the employee's pants, or the electrician's esophagus after a lineman got ahold of him?
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Dec 14, 2018 08:19
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STR posted:Old post, but speaking of available fault current... It depends! Hard to say really. It depends on where and how the fault occurs, and whether it can clear quickly or becomes a cascading failure. A high enough fault will find the utility's protective device, while something under that level could form a large explosion. STR posted:Bet he/she never forgets the meaning of PPE after that. Fortunately it wasn't that bad. It made quite a bark when he set the meter, and he pulled it back out. Not knowing that this wasn't normal (first meter he had ever set hot), he started to go back in with it and I had to stop him.
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Dec 14, 2018 16:04
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STR posted:Old post, but speaking of available fault current... When I worked at the Reagan Building in DC they had a gas meter room like that; maybe 50 meters together and it always smelled of gas. I had to change a light in that room once, which was extra fun because besides all the accumulated tiny leaks the room was splashed with dripping groundwater that penetrated the basement levels. At least it was a wet location fixture....
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Dec 14, 2018 17:44
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glynnenstein posted:When I worked at the Reagan Building in DC they had a gas meter room like that; maybe 50 meters together and it always smelled of gas. I had to change a light in that room once, which was extra fun because besides all the accumulated tiny leaks the room was splashed with dripping groundwater that penetrated the basement levels. At least it was a wet location fixture.... Glad I never took the job I interviewed for there even more now.
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Dec 15, 2018 22:46
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I've rarely walked into a gas meter room of anywhere even close to that size that didn't smell like gas. As I was taught, there are relief valves that are expected to bleed off some gas from time to time to handle surge/hammer type conditions. I've been out of this for too long and I never was in a jurisdiction with that kind of thing but it always seemed off to me......like shouldn't there be some better ventilation to you can't build up to the LEL?
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Dec 15, 2018 23:17
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I have an outlet in my bathroom that I think used to power a jet tub. Is it fine to entomb this outlet behind a shower wall if I disconnect the other end from the breaker and cap it off at that end?
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Dec 16, 2018 00:24
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Cat Hatter posted:I have an outlet in my bathroom that I think used to power a jet tub. Is it fine to entomb this outlet behind a shower wall if I disconnect the other end from the breaker and cap it off at that end? As long as the wire going into it is properly abandoned (as you described, verify 120v the 0v before/after) yes you can do whatever makes you happy. Leave a note inside it with what you know about the wire and breaker so future you can easily reconnect it if you want.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:46
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H110Hawk posted:As long as the wire going into it is properly abandoned (as you described, verify 120v the 0v before/after) yes you can do whatever makes you happy. Leave a note inside it with what you know about the wire and breaker so future you can easily reconnect it if you want. I'll leave a note that it should reattach to the breaker labeled "HOT TUD" then.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:55
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H110Hawk posted:As long as the wire going into it is properly abandoned (as you described, verify 120v the 0v before/after) yes you can do whatever makes you happy. Leave a note inside it with what you know about the wire and breaker so future you can easily reconnect it if you want. What's the conventional wisdom on what to do with the abandoned wire: A) Cap H and N separately (to ensure that if they are energized they don't cause a short), or B) Cap H and N together (to ensure that if someone energizes it an immediate fault will occur and trip the supplying breaker)? Option B seems like the more clever approach, but I'm wondering if it's too-clever-by-half somehow.
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Dec 16, 2018 06:34
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Re gas: there are situations where a leak is dangerous and the only way to know is with a gas detector. Sometimes you can smell the gas and sometimes you might think the gas is gone, but in reality your nose has been overwhelmed by the smell. Gas equipment is supposed to be installed in such a way that gas will not build up and instead disperse. If in doubt, call the local fire department.Motronic posted:I've been out of this for too long and I never was in a jurisdiction with that kind of thing but it always seemed off to me......like shouldn't there be some better ventilation to you can't build up to the LEL? We only have propane here, but all of the tanks in our area are required to vent to the outside away from areas where the propane could pool.
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Dec 16, 2018 09:30
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The Gardenator posted:We only have propane here, but all of the tanks in our area are required to vent to the outside away from areas where the propane could pool. That makes sense, as propane is heavier than air while natural gas is lighter.
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Dec 16, 2018 17:14
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I'm going to install a new main panel in a different location of the basement in preparation of upgrading our service to 200A. I'd basically like to put the panel up now, wire it as a subpanel temporarily and then gradually move circuits from the old main panel to the new panel. How should I power the new sub-panel (Which will eventually be the main panel) during the transition? I was thinking 2-2-2-4 AL SER hooked into a 100A breaker on the old main panel. Does that sound right?  Edit: I'm an idiot and put 4-4-4-2 on my diagram, I meant 2-2-2-4 as stated above Edit 2: Looks like the 2008 NEC (which is what we use here, I believe) requires that I use the 60 degree table for ampacity, which means I gotta either go thicker or use a smaller breaker. I'd probably just use a 90A breaker and be done with it. 30 TO 50 FERAL HOG fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 20:37
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Next question! I'm planning on plugging two UPSs into this dedicated outlet, and I want to make sure I'm not going to overload it. I'm not 100% sure on what numbers matter here and what doesn't matter, so hopefully someone can correct me where I'm wrong. The two devices I'm looking to plug into it, is a APC Smart-UPS 2200 (Do not own yet, plan to find a used one), the data sheet for this states that the max capacity is 1980 watts. The other device I already own, I'm not there at the moment, but I *believe* it is APC BackUPS 650, which the data sheet says that the max capacity is 390 watts. As I understand, a 20 amp circuit should be able to provide 2400 watts of power, so 1980 + 390 = 2370, which is just under the 2400. I think that in each of these devices, is a breaker just like in the electrical panel, which will trip if the load plugged into either UPS breaks 1980 watts or 390 watts respectively, and then if the combined load breaks 2400 the 20 amp breaker in the panel will trip. I believe that those loads should *only* be peak loads, and for continuous loads I have to derate the capacity to 80%, so that gives me a dedicated circuit with 1920 watts of power, and two UPSs with 1584 and 312 watts of power respectively. If that all is correct, then I *think* I can safely plug these two UPSs into a single 20 amp circuit, as long as the continuous and peak loads for each device match the 80% and 100% numbers from above. Is that correct? If not, should I install two dedicated circuits one for each UPS? In practice, I don't believe that this is going to be an issue at all. This outlet is being installed in a corner of my basement for my networking gear, and I am using two UPSs because one will be mounted to the wall for the wall mount "house" specific items like the cable modem, VoiP adapter, etc, All of which is likely under 50 total watts. The other UPS will be a rack mount UPS installed into a network rack that has all of the network gear, some rack mount servers, and such. I don't have all of the equipment so I don't know what that is going to look like yet, but I'm trying to establish the limits I have to work with power wise, to make sure that I stay well within them.
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Dec 17, 2018 21:27
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You're looking at the output ratings instead of the input ratings. The smaller UPS you mentioned has a max input current rating of 12 A. I didn't see an input rating for the other UPS. It should be on the rating plate, if you have access to one.
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Dec 17, 2018 21:38
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Comrade Gritty posted:Next question! Base your circuit on the actual use case. For reference I have the following in my basement: FiOS ONT Ubiquiti USG-Pro-4 Ubiquiti US-48-500W Synology RS2416 NAS Plex server (8800K, 1070 Ti, 800W PSU) TiVo Bolt SmartThings smart home controller 2x Monoprice 6 zone amplifier 2x Monoprice 100W Unity amplifier SmartUPS 2200 On a 20A circuit. Granted I dont usually have more than 1-2 zones on the amplifier active at any one time.
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Dec 17, 2018 21:42
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