The Iron Rose posted:so about 54 million americans then? When making enough to save / stay out of debt became abnormal instead of expected.
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Dec 17, 2018 19:50
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:people tying their retirement to the value of their home is a huge problem with housing in the western world because creating affordable housing directly decreases the value of their home Putting assets in real estate for retirement is entirely orthogonal to putting your 18.5k every year into what amounts to a tax free savings account. That Works posted:When making enough to save / stay out of debt became abnormal instead of expected. This on the contrary makes a much better point regarding retirement savings and the what - $400 most American households have in savings? You wanna make the point that it's horrific how only a third of eligible working Americans can afford to/contribute to their 401ks then I'm all on board, but that doesn't make a third of the workforce bougie fat cats.
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Dec 17, 2018 19:53
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Cat Army 
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sure are a lot of people itt who think they’ll outlive the impending forced labor at the ocasio-cortez© uranium mines
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Dec 17, 2018 20:06
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The Iron Rose posted:so about 54 million americans then? The median 401k balance is like $18k, which would generate retirement income of .... $100/month if you're lucky? 54m Americans may have 401ks, but the number who can expect to draw significant income from them relative to other sources like social security is far, far lower. For most people the movements of the stock market are just noise except to the extent they're indicative of the underlying economy.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:08
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And it gets more dire when you look at savings vs cost of living or look at things like savings for any demo other than white or Asian American.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:12
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:people tying their retirement to the value of their home is a huge problem with housing in the western world because creating affordable housing directly decreases the value of their home Which is loving hilarious given that with a 30 year mortgage you're basically paying double the sale price once interest is factored in, not to mention maintenance, insurance, and taxes. Like unless you're specifically investing in a house as a rental, homeownership is a terrible investment.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:12
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psydude posted:Which is loving hilarious given that with a 30 year mortgage you're basically paying double the sale price once interest is factored in, not to mention maintenance, insurance, and taxes. Like unless you're specifically investing in a house as a rental, homeownership is a terrible investment. Yup: https://jlcollinsnh.com/2013/05/29/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/ quote:To be (a) really terrible (investment):
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Dec 17, 2018 20:18
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I'm gonna steal the father in law's Eagle E-type and go on the fury road, shiny and chrome.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:19
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MA-Horus posted:I'm gonna steal the father in law's Eagle E-type and go on the fury road, shiny and chrome. I got a 65 mercury and I'm ok with cannibalism so see you in the wastelands.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:21
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Only diesel cars will be capable of riding the roads post-apocalypse. It'll be 1980s Mercedes Diesels riding shiny and chrome 
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Dec 17, 2018 20:27
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Read this for a real depressing look at the state of retirement, savings, pensions, etc. poo poo is hosed. https://www.epi.org/publication/retirement-in-america/#charts There’s an argument to be made that conspicuous consumption of things like cars etc has largely been replaced by less conspicuous, but still very expensive stuff: education, decent healthcare, retirement savings. And it’s easy not to feel like a fat cat when you spend on those rather than a luxury car.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:28
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The Iron Rose posted:so about 54 million americans then? when we stopped paying workers an actual living wage so executives could pump up the stock price for their own good.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:39
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Crakkerjakk posted:Yup: The thing is you don't have a choice about paying for a place to live. All else being equal between buying and renting, buying tends to be financially advantageous after 3-5 years although you shoulder far more of the risk than a renter. On the other hand buying more house than you would otherwise because "it's an investment" or "I'm building equity" is generally a poor decision. Real property is also about the only "investment" that allows non-professionals to take on significant leverage. Again, more risk, but that means that in an environment of generally increasing values (like, say, 1946-2007) it allows homeowners to see more gains than they would otherwise. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 20:42
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we've only spent the entire 35 years of my life beating into the heads of every person in America that home ownership is the cornerstone of the American dream and its also a great investment and you should do everything possible to get in on it. oh yeah if you dont make enough just take out every student loan possible to get an education because this recent WSJ article said you can get a job coding and make lots of money!
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Dec 17, 2018 20:43
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Proud Christian Mom posted:we've only spent the entire 35 years of my life beating into the heads of every person in America that home ownership is the cornerstone of the American dream and its also a great investment and you should do everything possible to get in on it. oh yeah if you dont make enough just take out every student loan possible to get an education because this recent WSJ article said you can get a job coding and make lots of money! Its worth mentioning that companies are starting to recognize that coders are just as talented without a degree, and are hiring/training coders straight out of high school now.
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Dec 17, 2018 20:45
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Acebuckeye13 posted:please don't kill yourselves
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Dec 17, 2018 21:01
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CommieGIR posted:Its worth mentioning that companies are starting to recognize that coders are just as talented without a degree, and are hiring/training coders straight out of high school now. I think a lot of schools recognize this as well and offer “coding boot camps” for full stack development. I know a number of public schools that offer 20-24 week programs then straight job placement.
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Dec 17, 2018 21:33
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There's a big difference between understanding the underlying mathematical concepts behind programming and learning some Java in a couple weeks.
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Dec 17, 2018 21:40
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Woof Blitzer posted:There's a big difference between understanding the underlying mathematical concepts behind programming and learning some Java in a couple weeks. Not to mention all of the other stuff behind development - software engineering, project management, QA/QC, product management, localization. Programming is like 15% of it. Those bootcamps can be a good pipeline to an entry level job, but "Skip college, do software!" is taking a pretty reductionist view of a fairly complex industry. psydude fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 21:46
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My high school had a computer coding class, I was so excited to sign up for it, but then I got there and it was a class to learn microsoft works. I got yelled at for accidentally taking the diskette I got issued home with me on the first day.
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Dec 17, 2018 21:49
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:If I'm dying and the world is over, I'm taking some finance douchebags or billionaires with me This but if I'm diagnosed with any kind of cancer not really worth fighting. Don't worry, killing myself isn't on my five year plan. CRUSTY MINGE fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 22:06
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If I ever get told I’m terminal I’m just gonna hang on to my family as long as I can, and probably try to rebuild all the bridges I’ve burned that I regret, but not to the detriment of spending time with my family. I’ve done enough killing, we all die eventually- so I have no fantasies about killing the rich. They’re just as dead as me eventually, and they don’t get to take their money and possessions with them anymore than I do.
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Dec 17, 2018 22:17
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psydude posted:Not to mention all of the other stuff behind development - software engineering, project management, QA/QC, product management, localization. Programming is like 15% of it. Most of that stuff is orthogonal to a CS degree anyways. Its like expecting a degree in physics to build a bridge.
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Dec 17, 2018 22:19
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psydude posted:Not to mention all of the other stuff behind development - software engineering, project management, QA/QC, product management, localization. Programming is like 15% of it. Project Management is largely being pushed off on PMs, QA/QC is a joke even with college programmers. Seriously, I've worked as a System Engineer with large software development teams, QA/QC is generally a mess even with college level Software Engineers, and they generally want nothing to do with managing their own project.
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Dec 17, 2018 22:35
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I love hiw Rage Against The Machine stays loving relevant. Im gonna blast Down Rodeo when the guillotine happens
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Dec 17, 2018 22:36
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The main thing as an industry matures is that you discover the absolute minimum level of qualification necessary to perform a work unit. You don't need a rockstar 170k cash / 400k options programmer loving around when you can hire three people at 40k/yr and get the same result. You still need that top talent, absolutely positively, but you need it for jobs that require that only that expertise can bring. Software is going to devolve the same way that medicine did the decades before, the same way that mechanics did the century before.
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Dec 17, 2018 22:40
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Vasudus posted:The main thing as an industry matures is that you discover the absolute minimum level of qualification necessary to perform a work unit. You don't need a rockstar 170k cash / 400k options programmer loving around when you can hire three people at 40k/yr and get the same result. You still need that top talent, absolutely positively, but you need it for jobs that require that only that expertise can bring. the thing, tho, is that there is no actual operations in software you build it, thats it. copying is basically free. even peeps who are basically said to be operators, sysadmins, are janitoring the machines, not doing the work, the machines actually do the work that means that too many cooks deffo spoil the broth. its why many attempts to try to use sweatshops to produce good software fuckin explodes. its because everyone involved is designing
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Dec 17, 2018 22:44
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bob dobbs is dead posted:the thing, tho, is that there is no actual operations in software Not so much with cloud anymore, a lot of Development Operations is automating the product chain and deployment cycle. There is a lot of cross over.
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Dec 17, 2018 22:48
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In that case you (as an industry or company) would have your top tier people design and implement the process, and then you leave a custodial staff to maintain it until significant changes come about. It's the same in a lot of industries. You always need *someone* to keep the lights on. All those coding bootcamp programs and stuff are designed to depress the wages of the highly paid programmers that don't *need* to be highly paid if there were more people to draw from.
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Dec 17, 2018 22:48
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Vasudus posted:In that case you (as an industry or company) would have your top tier people design and implement the process, and then you leave a custodial staff to maintain it until significant changes come about. It's the same in a lot of industries. You always need *someone* to keep the lights on. the custodial staff wages have also doubled or tripled in the last 10 years
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Dec 17, 2018 23:08
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bob dobbs is dead posted:the custodial staff wages have also doubled or tripled in the last 10 years Because entire departments are becoming one or two guys
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Dec 17, 2018 23:09
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Back before I took my current job I was offered a job with SAP. I would undergo a 2 month all expenses paid boot camp (you lived in a hotel and poo poo) to learn SAP Hana and all that poo poo, forgot what it's called. They were going to then send me somewhere (location TBD) for 42k/yr to maintain the SAP system for a company. Small companies would get one guy, larger companies get more. We would be the custodial staff that would come in after the highly prized integration people did their job and hosed off. The only requirement was to have a 4 year degree, be a US citizen, and have a clean criminal record. I almost took it too, because I was making 1k/month at my no-profit shelter that I was working at.
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Dec 17, 2018 23:20
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CommieGIR posted:Because entire departments are becoming one or two guys it sure aint depressin wages tho
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Dec 17, 2018 23:20
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bob dobbs is dead posted:it sure aint depressin wages tho Third guy is prolly depressed.
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Dec 17, 2018 23:25
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bob dobbs is dead posted:the thing, tho, is that there is no actual operations in software Yeah our development team runs pretty lean, with people working exactly as you said. I'm trying to get them to hire an entry level guy to work with me on integrating third party platforms into the product, but even that is going to take a fair level of autonomy. bob dobbs is dead posted:it sure aint depressin wages tho I think it's because the talent pool was never exhausted to begin with. Even though managed services/outsourced maintenance contracts/whatever have become the standard across the industry, there's still a large net deficit of experienced and qualified people. So while Dimension Data or AT&T might replace 1000 in-house positions with 300 positions working at their MSS SOC, they're still competing for the same 100 people as everyone else. So the primary driver (aside from saving on maintaining physical infrastructure) isn't labor costs, it's that it's loving impossible to find anyone to fill the job to begin with. Might as well pay another company to make it their problem instead. psydude fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 23:27
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Vasudus posted:Back before I took my current job I was offered a job with SAP. I would undergo a 2 month all expenses paid boot camp (you lived in a hotel and poo poo) to learn SAP Hana and all that poo poo, forgot what it's called. They were going to then send me somewhere (location TBD) for 42k/yr to maintain the SAP system for a company. Small companies would get one guy, larger companies get more. We would be the custodial staff that would come in after the highly prized integration people did their job and hosed off. The only requirement was to have a 4 year degree, be a US citizen, and have a clean criminal record. I am transitioning from SAP HR module implementation to clinical therapy. S4/Hana might get you a bit more life but on premise SAP was a dying industry to break into with so many colleagues who all got experience during huge projects that paid $Texas while I was floating at sea Edit: Hilarious that they'd salary you for that low since they probably bill out 3-4x that Nick Soapdish fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 23:38
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Nick Soapdish posted:I am transitioning from SAP HR module implementation to clinical therapy. S4/Hana might get you a bit more life but on premise SAP was a dying industry to break into with so many colleagues who all got experience during huge projects that paid $Texas while I was floating at sea Welcome to capitalism
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Dec 17, 2018 23:50
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psydude posted:So the primary driver (aside from saving on maintaining physical infrastructure) isn't labor costs, it's that it's loving impossible to find anyone to fill the job to begin with. Recruiting is a train wreck where the safest thing is to set standards so high thats its impossible to hire anyone. Hence you get interviews where candidates are asked "how many piano tuners are there in manhattan" and then to implement a tree traversal on a white board neither of which have anything to do with your actual job.
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Dec 18, 2018 00:00
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hobbesmaster posted:Recruiting is a train wreck where the safest thing is to set standards so high thats its impossible to hire anyone. Hence you get interviews where candidates are asked "how many piano tuners are there in manhattan" and then to implement a tree traversal on a white board neither of which have anything to do with your actual job. These are an attempt to create class barriers, so fewer people good enough for the job but not good enough for Stanford get this generation's surprise ticket to professional wealth. They seem comical and counterproductive now, but in a few years they'll be replaced with machine learning algorithms that will be able to reject 500 people
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Dec 18, 2018 00:15
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Doc Hawkins posted:These are an attempt to create class barriers, so fewer people good enough for the job but not good enough for Stanford get to be low-digit millionaires. They seem comical and counterproductive now, but in a few years they'll be replaced with machine learning algorithms that will be able to reject 500 people Amazon already created one which found a very high correlation between rejecting candidates and having "women's ____" anywhere on their resume. So it dropped any resume that mentioned something like that. Amazon will not use that program.... however it was based on Amazon's own hiring data sets. edit: There was also the one used at an investment bank or some such that had the highest correlations to being hired being the name "jared" and high school lacrosse.
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Dec 18, 2018 00:17
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