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turn off the TV posted:You wouldn't be able to do a habitat start without changing a lot about how they work. They only have city, research and amenities districts and the latter two aren't great sources of research or amenities. Its worse, the "city" district is only housing. The districts are entertainer, research or clerks and the entertainer/researcher districts are only 3 jobs while the clerks one is 5. I really don't understand the design of habitats.
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Dec 18, 2018 00:22
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They're designed to be a waste of an ascension perk. The ol' spicy trap option.
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Dec 18, 2018 00:27
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There really should be an achievement for tripling your species' lifespan.
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Dec 18, 2018 00:51
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Xarbala posted:They're designed to be a waste of an ascension perk. Doesn't stop every AI empire spamming them!
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Dec 18, 2018 00:54
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hobbesmaster posted:Its worse, the "city" district is only housing. The districts are entertainer, research or clerks and the entertainer/researcher districts are only 3 jobs while the clerks one is 5. The housing is only housing, but it supplies 10 housing compared to 5 from a normal one (or .. 6 after tradition unlocks?). While you can't make insane research habs, you can do poo poo like stuff them full of alloy factories. Another thing you can do with habs is make your space a goddamn nightmare to take over. Oh this chokepoint system? Yea I put a habitat stuffed with fortresses there. Have fun trying to take that poo poo over, and its giving a bunch of naval cap. They're not as good as ecunomopolis, but given that you're not replacing an existing planet and they make it a lot easier to get to megastructures they're not a waste of a slot I think. They are definitely not the strongest they've ever been, but I think there are uses for them.
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Dec 18, 2018 00:58
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hobbesmaster posted:I really don't understand the design of habitats. there are a few things they kinda might make sense for, but all those things are better off being done in an ecumannypacquiao  my spacebird species who were bioengineered on a life-seeded planet to inhabit only the stars
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Dec 18, 2018 00:59
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mormonpartyboat posted:
Yeah I had a lot of fun doing that kind of playstyle in 2.1 and it's just not possible anymore.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:04
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hobbesmaster posted:Its worse, the "city" district is only housing. The districts are entertainer, research or clerks and the entertainer/researcher districts are only 3 jobs while the clerks one is 5. In theory they're decent for off-worlding your processing hubs (for alloys/consumer goods), but in practice you should just make an ecumenopolis, as has been stated. I think Paradox should try and find a new role for them.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:18
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In the before times habitats were good because they gave you somewhere to put excess pops when you ran out of planets. Excess pops is now an oxymoron, so they need a new niche. Making them better but only if they're built in the "right" places would be good. You know what could be neat? If they got planetary features features based on their parent body. So a habitat built around a +3 energy gas giant will instead give you 3 energy districts. That no modifier barren planet isn't really worth it and probably neither is that +2 mineral moon but the +2/+2/+2 science deposit that dropped from an anomaly is an absolute slam dunk. Splicer fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 01:23
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I wish habs were just tiny ringworlds in that they didn't do mines and maybe had slightly re-flavoured city/farm/generator districts but otherwise worked the same with no restrictions on labs or commercial.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:24
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Splicer posted:In the before times habitats were good because they gave you somewhere to put excess pops when you ran out of planets. Excess pops is now an oxymoron, so they need a new niche. Making them better but only if they're built in the "right" places would be good. Before hand we’re good because you could get massive amounts of energy from them. Now you can get poor research, poor unity or poor trade value from them. I guess the building sits can be used for refineries?
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Dec 18, 2018 01:26
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The problem isn’t that Habitats aren’t good right now. They are a very good way to focus your specialist goods production. Max housing districts then jam them full of alloy foundries and civillian industries. The problem is two things: A) They can’t compete with Ecumenopoleis which are a tad busted right now B) They shouldn’t be an ascension perk at all. Solve B and most of the problem goes away though.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:26
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I think Ecumenopolies are good and fine and other things like habitats and galactic wonders should be balanced based around them. Both their raw-goodness/costs but also factoring in how quickly you can rush them. I usually have my first one up by early 2300's and I'm no speed runner, meanwhile galactic wonders are things you kinda build at the very end of the game. Cool, a thing that cost thousands of alloys to build and thousands of days and it gives me like 5% more research in my game where I'm already waste deep in the boring repeatable techs. Oh cool a little bit of extra power. The sentry array is the only good classic wonder. The black hole mine thing is good because minerals remain the only constraint in the late game. Ringworlds are even sort of lame as well. By the time I can build one I'm not hurting for food or energy, only minerals. 200 districts of not-mines is nothing even my late game economy can't really afford and by the time the thing is 20% inhabited the game is very well and over. If the late-game was a bit longer the wonders wouldn't feel like a useless vanity victory-lap sort of thing.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:31
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Captain Oblivious posted:The problem isn’t that Habitats aren’t good right now. They are a very good way to focus your specialist goods production. Max housing districts then jam them full of alloy foundries and civillian industries. The problem is two things: lovely goon game crafting incoming: Habs start off as something you build with a fairly early tech that lets you basically put up things like O'Neill cylinders. They have a small size but don't cost that much. They basically give you another place where pops are growing. As you get more and more techs, you can steadily upgrade them (maybe 2-3 upgrades) to what habs are like now, maybe a bit bigger, and they cost less overall. As far as districts go, subsume the Trade district into the Leisure district so it gives 2 Clerks, 2 Entertainers, 1 Culture worker, and replace it with a Hydroponics district for farming.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:35
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Baronjutter posted:I think Ecumenopolies are good and fine and other things like habitats and galactic wonders should be balanced based around them. Both their raw-goodness/costs but also factoring in how quickly you can rush them. I usually have my first one up by early 2300's and I'm no speed runner, meanwhile galactic wonders are things you kinda build at the very end of the game. Cool, a thing that cost thousands of alloys to build and thousands of days and it gives me like 5% more research in my game where I'm already waste deep in the boring repeatable techs. Oh cool a little bit of extra power. Splicer fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 01:41
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How the gently caress do you decrease crime? It's negative on this planet, but they just spawned a criminal fleet into the system 
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Dec 18, 2018 01:44
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Ringworlds would make a lot of sense as an upgrade from building lots of habitats in a system.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:45
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Splicer posted:I really like that idea from a while back about making megastructures colonisable. You could make them available much earlier, but lock their true potential behind tile blockers ("gaping void where we haven't built any floor yet" "giant loving generators that keep the whole thing from collapsing" "support beams the size of planets") that need late game tech and shittons of alloys to remove. So you can build them a bit earlier and get an immediate if reduced return but still need ZPE/Citadels/Battleships to completely turn your base economy over to a star and a black hole covered in robots. Yeah in general I like anything that makes them more "generations long project" rather than "dump a ton of minerals on it and wait."
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Dec 18, 2018 01:46
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Preston Waters posted:How the gently caress do you decrease crime? It's negative on this planet, but they just spawned a criminal fleet into the system That's a pirate fleet. Space piracy has nothing to do with planetary crime. Unless there actually is a special criminal fleet event now, I dunno.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:48
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Baronjutter posted:I think Ecumenopolies are good and fine and other things like habitats and galactic wonders should be balanced based around them. Both their raw-goodness/costs but also factoring in how quickly you can rush them. I usually have my first one up by early 2300's and I'm no speed runner, meanwhile galactic wonders are things you kinda build at the very end of the game. Cool, a thing that cost thousands of alloys to build and thousands of days and it gives me like 5% more research in my game where I'm already waste deep in the boring repeatable techs. Oh cool a little bit of extra power. Dyson Spheres are also very good because they allow you to shift that much more of your population over to alloy production. But yeah, mega engineering is way too deep in the tech tree now. I can usually get megastructures building by about 3500 by taking voidborn, but if I'm doing that then the AI is already doomed.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:59
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Captain Oblivious posted:The problem isn’t that Habitats aren’t good right now. They are a very good way to focus your specialist goods production. Max housing districts then jam them full of alloy foundries and civillian industries. The problem is two things: Yea, habitats should be a high end tech, after Star Fortresses and then the voidborne perk should make them actually usable, grant them production bonuses and more districts.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:59
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GunnerJ posted:Yeah in general I like anything that makes them more "generations long project" rather than "dump a ton of minerals on it and wait." "So what are the planets for?" "Holidays and criminals."
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Dec 18, 2018 01:59
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I've got an interesting project going on. In my current game I have about 50ish planets, almost all of which are maxed out and have unemployment issues. Now it's not really an issue because I have social welfare, but it's the kind of thing I want to fix because I like a productive empire. So I figure I'll build a ringworld to send them all to. I think it's the only thing big enough to hold all my unemployed pops, since I didn't take the ecumenopolis perk this time around as a challenge (got the First League one anyway, but it's long since maxed out). I think I've found a use for ringworlds after all! But yeah, that's more of a novelty. I already beat the Unbidden this game, I just want to get my people all comfortable and productive before I move on. I haven't found much actual use for ringw orlds anymore, since minerals are pretty consistently my bottleneck. Minerals are used for: alloys, consumer goods, strategic resources, and most infrastructure. As a normal empire they're frequently in short supply once the midgame starts to roll. Also I was disappointed to find out I can apparently only make one resort world.
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Dec 18, 2018 01:59
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Magil Zeal posted:Minerals are used for: alloys, consumer goods, strategic resources, and most infrastructure. As a normal empire they're frequently in short supply once the midgame starts to roll. You can buy all of those things with energy credits, though, and each ringworld segment can have 50 generator districts.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:09
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Habitats work fine at about T3 and frankly I'd say T2 with reduced slots so you can get started earlier. Megastructures in general have long had the problem where they are nothing but vanity projects because the game is over and I would greatly prefer them to be completely redone as staged projects with interactivity, such as via making them habitable, and beginning much earlier in the game.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:13
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I kinda like the idea of habitats going the other way and being made easier to get, but with a significantly changed role. Then you just flat out remove districts from them and give them exactly 7 building slots to build things with, including housing. Then the upgrade gives them 2 or 3 more building slots. That'd give them a clear niche as the ideal place for low pop buildings. Strategic resource fabrication plants, strongholds, that kinda thing. Were betharian stone a fungible resource, it'd be great for habs. Other option is spacefarms. I also love the upthread idea of the thing the hab's over having an impact, maybe via a single unlocked building based on the type of thing it's on - a specialized mining facility over an asteroid belt or a power generator over a star, that kinda thing. Something like +5 related jobs and +5 housing. I think that'd give them a pretty distinct role, which would be particularly useful to people who want to play tall. Or my spacebirds, who just want to go to space and leave planets behind.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:15
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Habitats being situationally different works exceptionally well in guilli's mod and could be even further improved if what you build them around gave them different district options. Asteroids get belt mining, gas giants get gas harvesting, habitable worlds get sociological studies etc.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:19
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turn off the TV posted:You can buy all of those things with energy credits, though, and each ringworld segment can have 50 generator districts. Ringworlds are a little boring, unfortunately. Something like Gulli's mod spawning modifiers and maybe some special districts on occasion would be cool - maybe during construction/colonization there's a chance of events allowing the player to "seed" strategic resource deposits in return for a large upfront cost, like "Our engineers have determined that the caves of Ringworld Section B have the exact geological conditions to support the growth of rare crystals. Pay 500 rare crystals to seed a deposit?" and then maybe a chance of failure, success, or critical success that adds a large amount of production. I actually thought about modding something like that in, but got a little lost when I tried to figure out modding.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:20
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turn off the TV posted:You can buy all of those things with energy credits, though, and each ringworld segment can have 50 generator districts. Sure, but in all my games minerals also start to sell at a huge premium, often hitting what I believe is the cap of 6 energy per mineral. It's not a great conversion, and it takes a while to pay back considering what you have to invest in the ringworld to get there (including the pops themselves).
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Dec 18, 2018 02:27
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Habs should be the things that can serve as resorts and prisons and stuff. Build space casinos, make $$$! Send your criminals to Penal Station 14 that's five jumps from the nearest habitable world!
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Dec 18, 2018 02:31
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Ms Adequate posted:Habs should be the things that can serve as resorts and prisons and stuff. Build space casinos, make $$$! Send your criminals to Penal Station 14 that's five jumps from the nearest habitable world! But Rura Penthe!
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Dec 18, 2018 02:32
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Shadowlyger posted:That's a pirate fleet. Space piracy has nothing to do with planetary crime. There actually is an event triggered by high crime that spawns hostile pirate fleets in the system because your local gangs take to space or something. On an unrelated note criminal syndicates are The Worst Neighbours and I am deeply annoyed that a War In Heaven had the gall to interrupt me while I was bombing my local space frog narcostate into dust. The way to decrease crime is mostly "fix the underlying unrest and instability" UNLESS it's being pushed by a criminal syndicate, in which case your options are a) recruit astounding numbers of Enforcers and/or go Psi Ascension and build the Psi Corps building, or b) crush them militarily until they're removed from the game. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 02:35
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hobbesmaster posted:But Rura Penthe! A good counter-argument. Just allow both!
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Dec 18, 2018 02:39
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Splicer posted:"The black hole mine covered in transmutation structures is powered by the star-encompassing sphere covered in forges. The excess powers the moon-sized research lab working continuously to improve these structures and the lives of the trillions of people living on the ring encircling that other sun. It's 25% farms, the rest is mainly housing and entertainment." I still have yet to find the tech to allow Resort Planets Can't wait for all the drat wiki pages to get updated.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:42
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I really think combo resort/penal worlds with their own special buildings (deathmatch coliseums, hunting grounds for "the most dangerous prey") should be an option.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:47
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GunnerJ posted:I really think combo resort/penal worlds with their own special buildings (deathmatch coliseums, hunting grounds for "the most dangerous prey") should be an option. There should also be an event chain that fires if you have droids on a savannah planet like this that results in some very angry synthetics.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:51
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habitats absolutely should be an ascension perk and not just part of every empire. I don't know why people fixate on that. It's not like ascension perks are hard to come by, and since living in space isn't part of everyones vision for their empire it shouldn't be a generic thing. Random thoughts: Special Voidborne buildings, only buildable in habitats, that give space dweller bonuses like +fire rate or -ship cost to your whole empire or big bonuses to station output in the system (good synergy with rare mining). I wonder if buildings can give sector-scoped buffs. p.s. anyone else think its weird that special worlds have upgradeable capitals
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Dec 18, 2018 03:12
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:habitats absolutely should be an ascension perk and not just part of every empire. I don't know why people fixate on that. It's not like ascension perks are hard to come by, and since living in space isn't part of everyones vision for their empire it shouldn't be a generic thing. Because you have a limited number of ascention perk slots, and those are hard to come by because you don't get more than you start with. So putting useless stuff in there you aren't going to leverage is bad, due to Opportunity Cost. That's why people fixate on that, I hope this helped illuminate.
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Dec 18, 2018 03:14
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Just give Habitats the exact same districts as an Ecumenopolis. I don't see what's so hard about that: make them mini-city-planets in space.
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Dec 18, 2018 03:17
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OwlFancier posted:Habitats being situationally different works exceptionally well in guilli's mod and could be even further improved if what you build them around gave them different district options. Asteroids get belt mining, gas giants get gas harvesting, habitable worlds get sociological studies etc. Habitat functionality changing based on being built around different kinds of objects in space is a good idea tbh.
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Dec 18, 2018 03:21
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