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Milkfred E. Moore posted:That makes the line where Sheridan has to ask what kind of sensor system Babylon 5 is using a bit strange, then. The fact that he asks about the hardware B5 has implies that the EA has the capability to detect them and it's a matter of tech. Otherwise, you'd think he'd just be mystified that they can detect them at all. In Season 4, there's mention made of the Agamemnon being able to track Sheridan's forces with their sensors, too. White Stars aren't Minbari cruisers, of course. They were also designed to fight the Shadows - it would make sense that they wouldn't include Stealth Tech if it didn't do anything against the Shadows (of course there's good writing reasons to not have them have stealth tech, so that actual fights can happen in S4, and good reasons for the Minbari TO have it). You could also argue that Sheridan's been out on the rim for ages, so doesn't know all the new tech  Milkfred E. Moore posted:Also, JMS recollection of the line doesn't seem accurate with what Sheridan actually says in the show, which is very much past tense. When was the last time the humans fought the Minbari? Either way, it's definitely not the case that the Omega destroyers can certainly lock onto Minbari ships, which was the original claim.
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Dec 11, 2018 12:45
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Sheridan is phrasing the issue of being able to track the Minbari ships as a past wartime problem. "During the war"... "We were never able to break"... See, if this was still a present problem, Sheridan wouldn't need to present his answers in a historical timeframe. If the Minbari stealth tech is still an impossible issue, you'd think everyone in Earthforce would know about it. Why else would Sheridan need to explain it -- twice! -- to Ivanova? "We were never able to crack their stealth tech." "Uh, I know, Captain. We still can't. I took Minbari Threat Assessment 101 at the Academy." "Look, it's my first day and I still haven't had my orange juice." Maybe JMS wrote the line as "We've never been able to break", which would make sense if the EA still couldn't get past it. But 'we were never' is a completely different meaning, and that's the line that Boxleitner said. I'm sure JMS claims a reason for it, because that's what writers do when people find inconsistencies. I'm sure he also has an explanation for things like how Lennier says Minbari society has two castes, and how no one, not even Sinclair, recognizes the gunports open thing in Legacies - despite someone (I think Garibaldi?) noting that the death of Dukhat was an accident in the same episode. You could contrive an answer, sure, but in the end, it's just shaky writing. Funnily enough, the specifics of the destruction of the Black Star changes, too (Sol system, multiple ships, fake distress call -> other system, one ship, honest distress call). But B5 has never been concerned with particulars, especially when it comes to matters of war or terminology. B5's a big picture show. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Dec 11, 2018 |
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Dec 11, 2018 14:30
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It's probably a bad idea to do extremely close reading of the tense of a sentence read in the take used in one scene of one episode in an underfunded sci-fi drama. What makes the most sense in light of the overall plot? What actually happened? That's probably what was meant.
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Dec 11, 2018 15:00
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's probably a bad idea to do extremely close reading of the tense of a sentence read in the take used in one scene of one episode in an underfunded sci-fi drama. What makes the most sense in light of the overall plot? What actually happened? That's probably what was meant. This. Also, people use past events to reinforce current idea/trends all the time. It is perfectly reasonable to assume Sherridan is saying that we could never break their stealth tech during the war and that nothing has changed since then. Milkfred E. Moore posted:Funnily enough, the specifics of the destruction of the Black Star changes, too (Sol system, multiple ships, fake distress call -> other system, one ship, honest distress call). But B5 has never been concerned with particulars, especially when it comes to matters of war or terminology. B5's a big picture show. This is a better argument: that the ~fog of war~ obscures details from certain people giving them an incomplete or inaccurate view of current or historical events.
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Dec 11, 2018 16:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's probably a bad idea to do extremely close reading of the tense of a sentence read in the take used in one scene of one episode in an underfunded sci-fi drama. What makes the most sense in light of the overall plot? What actually happened? That's probably what was meant.
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Dec 11, 2018 16:51
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Isn't JMS also on record saying that starfuries travel "at the speed of plot" or something like that?
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Dec 11, 2018 17:18
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:That makes the line where Sheridan has to ask what kind of sensor system Babylon 5 is using a bit strange, then. The fact that he asks about the hardware B5 has implies that the EA has the capability to detect them and it's a matter of tech. Otherwise, you'd think he'd just be mystified that they can detect them at all. In Season 4, there's mention made of the Agamemnon being able to track Sheridan's forces with their sensors, too. The whole point of that line in S02E01 is that B5's sensors can track the Minbari cruiser and they shouldn't be able to. That tips Sheridan off that there's more going on than meets the eye, which leads him to his unorthodox solution to getting those assholes off his porch. For the White Stars, I offer this retcon: they aren't fitted with Minbari stealth systems because those systems would add cost (problematic when you're building an entire fleet of ships without the full approval of your government) and wouldn't work against the Shadows anyway. Edit: Probably should have read to end of thread and seen MrL_JaKiri making this same suggestion. In dramatic terms it just has to work out the way it did. If nobody less advanced than the Minbari could efficiently fight the Rangers, it would suck a lot of the drama out of the later seasons of the show.
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Dec 11, 2018 17:22
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wizzardstaff posted:Isn't JMS also on record saying that starfuries travel "at the speed of plot" or something like that? Yeah, but B5 isn't as bad as modern shows (Westerosi Express) so it gets forgiven like Indiana Jones riding the outside of a U-Boat for a thousand miles.
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Dec 11, 2018 17:23
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Zorak of Michigan posted:The whole point of that line in S02E01 is that B5's sensors can track the Minbari cruiser and they shouldn't be able to. That tips Sheridan off that there's more going on than meets the eye, which leads him to his unorthodox solution to getting those assholes off his porch. Another point to make about the White Stars is that it's not intended for everyone to know they're Minbari designed - which they're not, entirely. If they run around with tech that so far as we know nobody else has, that would give it away. Also I suspect there's a little bit of distrust going on there. They know some humans will be on board White Stars if not actually commanding them, and the Minbari may not want that tech getting back to Earth.
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Dec 11, 2018 17:37
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Weren't the White Stars built exclusively by the Religious Caste? Maybe they simply didn't have access to the stealth tech and them trying to get their hands on it would make the Warrior Caste suspicious and they were trying to build them in secret.
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Dec 11, 2018 17:51
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It’s because they look like plucked chickens.
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Dec 11, 2018 18:06
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:That makes the line where Sheridan has to ask what kind of sensor system Babylon 5 is using a bit strange, then. The fact that he asks about the hardware B5 has implies that the EA has the capability to detect them and it's a matter of tech. Otherwise, you'd think he'd just be mystified that they can detect them at all. In Season 4, there's mention made of the Agamemnon being able to track Sheridan's forces with their sensors, too. "Track" is different from "lock-on." Yes, they can detect a huge ship and a bunch of fighters. The Minbari jamming tech isn't a cloaking device like in Star Trek. Their weapons systems cannot lock-on to Minbari ships or fighters. The Agamemnon was tracking Sheridan's forces (hey, they are that direction) and General Lefcourt is monitoring the situation in Endgame, but neither refers to locking weapons systems onto Minbari ships. In the Babylon 5 Wars game, which was at least hypothetically canon, the Minbari jammers have the effect of breaking lock-on, which doubles the effect range between a firing ship and the Minbari target. Shooting from right on top of the ship is still likely to lead to hits. The problem is that the Minbari fleet is built to take you apart from long range and you can't shoot back from that far away. (The fighters also have jammers, which make them nearly impossible to shoot down.)
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Dec 11, 2018 20:08
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At the time of the season 4 incident where Earth ships are started to engage White Stars and can detect and lock onto them with ease, Earth had been working with the Shadows for a considerable amount of time - if they hadn't already figured out Minbari stealth technology on their own before then, I always assumed the Shadows would have quietly handed over the ability to do it. Earth wouldn't have been the most effective agent of chaos for the Shadows if they still couldn't fight what would be one of their primary enemies in an everyone for themselves meat grinder war.
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Dec 11, 2018 23:26
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On the other hand random raiders paid off by a minor League World can take down a White Star... as long as the plot demands it.
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Dec 11, 2018 23:45
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One episode after I post that Earthgov seems a bit fascist and we've got the Ministry of Peace recruiting blockleiters  . It's kind of worrying that Zack's joined up since he doesn't seem to be as wary of abuses of power as Garibaldi. Vir politely asking the dude whose backers have the Vorlons scared was fantastic.
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Dec 12, 2018 01:36
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ThingOne posted:One episode after I post that Earthgov seems a bit fascist and we've got the Ministry of Peace recruiting blockleiters Zack's far too upstanding and honest to get what's actually going on.
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Dec 12, 2018 07:34
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He didn't seem to have a problem with holding a man indefinitely without charges.
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Dec 12, 2018 19:09
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Seemlar posted:At the time of the season 4 incident where Earth ships are started to engage White Stars and can detect and lock onto them with ease, Earth had been working with the Shadows for a considerable amount of time - if they hadn't already figured out Minbari stealth technology on their own before then, I always assumed the Shadows would have quietly handed over the ability to do it. B5 Wars cheated the question by having the White Stars be underpowered (which is what forced Ivanova to shut down the jump engines to put full power to the weapons that one time); fighting alongside the non-loyalist Earthforce Destroyers, the White Stars would shut down their jammers for more weapons power and to try to draw fire away from the larger ships. I'm unsure if the Shadows would have handed that technology over in a form usable by non-Shadow-tech ships. The truncated plot of Crusade implies that Earth was doing research into Shadow tech, which implies the Shadows didn't just explain things or hand over technology themselves. It's unclear in the Shadow Omega fight whether the ships could lock on or not, as we never get their perspective on the battle.
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Dec 12, 2018 20:34
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ThingOne posted:He didn't seem to have a problem with holding a man indefinitely without charges. He ultimately did. I think at first it was a bit of getting caught up in Sheridan’s ‘crusade’ (pun semi-intended) and assuming the captain was right, but after a while he decided enough was enough. Assuming you’re talking about Morden.
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Dec 13, 2018 00:34
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Zack's also not very assertive and easily swayed/overawed by authority early on. He was definitely not okay with what Sheridan was doing, but wouldn't stand up to the captain. Season 4 Zack would.
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Dec 13, 2018 00:37
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Grand Fromage posted:Zack's also not very assertive and easily swayed/overawed by authority early on. He was definitely not okay with what Sheridan was doing, but wouldn't stand up to the captain. Season 4 Zack would. Good point. You know thinking about it that episode is actually one of my favorite episodes of the show. I think it tends to be overshadowed by the “big” episodes but Sheridan’s impotent rage and desperation to find out what happened is really I think the turning point in the series. That’s when it gets real at least for Sheridan and Morden’s unflappable smugness is just so perfectly played. I think it was that episode that really hooked me on the show originally. I mean yes, I watched it but after that episode I knew there was no turning back.
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Dec 13, 2018 01:07
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These Mars interrogation scenes are well done. I like that they are disorienting rather than gory.
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Dec 14, 2018 02:12
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The horror stuff is pretty good when it shows. I’m not through with season 3, but the scenes on Mars when the lady is talking about the secret dig there are all eerie as hell with the silent black thing against the red sky.
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Dec 14, 2018 02:56
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I've started watching Babylon 5 recently after learning about the show on these very forums. As such I'm scrupulously avoiding reading this thread to avoid spoilers but wanted to post while in progress. I really like it so far and I'm only a little bit into Season 2. As expected, the purposeful serialization and long-term character development are, even at this early stage, some of the main reasons why I'm enjoying it so much and why it feels worthwhile to watch this, even as someone who doesn't see much TV or consume a lot of media in general. One thing in particular that I think makes me so well-disposed to the show so far is that it is clearly, if clumsily, attempts to say something sincere and affirming about the nature of belief, faith and religion - topics which a modern show wouldn't dare to touch without a heavy layer of irony and cynicism if at all, and probably not with such positive intent. In this respect it really dates itself as a product of the optimistic, well-meaning early-to-mid-'90s - post-Cold War, pre-9/11, when a generation of adults had grown up watching Sesame Street and largely internalizing certain progressive values, when every kids' show made sure to have a disabled character. It was an era full of tokenism and other blind spots that accompanied these good intentions, and the consequences of those blind spots were exacerbated by a world in which for many people there really was little representation, a lot to complain about and a lot of work to be done to achieve hope - but there was still a real optimism in the air, and probably nowhere to go but down from that point. Now that we don't have faith in much, the show's faith in faith itself is jarring. There's that scene at the end of season 1, episode 5, when Sinclair introduces the 'dominant belief system of Earth' - and it's a lineup of adherents to multiple religions introduced and named individually, each dressed uniquely - first an atheist, then someone from a widespread religion, then another, then someone from a smaller faith and another and so one, the line appearing to stretch on almost infinitely as the camera slowly pans down it, lingering well beyond the point at which you think it will fade out. I found myself rolling my eyes and tearing up simultaneously at the scene itself, and retrospectively at the effort it took to do that, cast and costume all those people differently and set them up for that one shot, on pre-HBO network television where one episode was as disposable as another, for the simple purpose of making what the creator obviously felt to be an important point - the importance of all those people's beliefs, and therefore the importance of belief itself. The integrity of the show is in the fact that this theme is echoed and expanded in nearly everything else, from the other occasions in which Sinclair abets religion and faith, regardless of source, to Morden simply asking each of the major ambassadors what they want as the act that precipitates the coming apocalypse - the shadows manifesting the consequences of belief with immediacy, to devastating effect - to even the basic relationship structure at the heart of the show, a triangle of three people who are defined, essentially, by their faith in each other. It's good. Can't wait to continue! Kashia fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 09:19
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You have such wonders before you my friend. Check in often.
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Dec 15, 2018 09:37
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Faith seems to come up a lot in modern-ish sci-fi, like in Firefly "I don't care what you believe as long as you believe something" stylee, and BSG (who did it much, much worse). I think B5 does it well - a bit clumsily like you say, but religion is clumsy.
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Dec 15, 2018 12:45
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I had some extra time today and decided to mess around further with some B5 models and Unity. So now I've got a Starfury that I can fly around a bit and fire at things. The only thing to shoot at is the station right now, but it works. Jet style movement isn't really right, but for something quick it does the job. https://youtu.be/YeXjGlf6awo
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Dec 17, 2018 00:14
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Marmaduke! posted:Faith seems to come up a lot in modern-ish sci-fi, like in Firefly "I don't care what you believe as long as you believe something" stylee, and BSG (who did it much, much worse). I think B5 does it well - a bit clumsily like you say, but religion is clumsy. I rather found "Passing Through Gethsemane" one of the best meditations on faith and religion I've seen on TV, especially the way it brings up a science fiction concept and asks some profound questions about how that would interact with the whole idea of sin and forgiveness. Hell, the whole order of monks the episode revolves around was a very clever sci-fi thought about religion when they were introduced to the show; gotta love "So how did God, the creator of ALL the universe, reveal himself to alien races?" as a great theological question that would realistically get people of faith to dedicate themselves to studying it.
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Dec 17, 2018 00:38
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a lot of metaphysical questions about god kinda go out the window after 'I have always been here...' then again, god as a spiteful and indifferent gently caress seems pretty accurate.
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Dec 17, 2018 00:51
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Sedgr posted:I had some extra time today and decided to mess around further with some B5 models and Unity. So now I've got a Starfury that I can fly around a bit and fire at things. The only thing to shoot at is the station right now, but it works. Jet style movement isn't really right, but for something quick it does the job. Nifty ! Not to steal your thunder, but some people may not know that there is a complete space sim based on flying Starfurys. Free (legal) download http://babylon.hard-light.net Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTFj4AuokaQ
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Dec 18, 2018 06:11
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And to think, B5 was conceived of and run by an atheist.
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Dec 18, 2018 07:29
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That scene between Londo and G'kar in the council chamber was incredible. It's hard to imagine that just last season they seemed like a drunken wastrel and a petty villain. Londo's "rise" has been especially tragic since he's gotten exactly what he wanted and is starting to realize it wasn't what he wanted at all.
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Dec 18, 2018 15:59
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ThingOne posted:That scene between Londo and G'kar in the council chamber was incredible. At the risk of extremely minor spoilers: could you be more specific?
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Dec 18, 2018 16:18
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ConfusedUs posted:At the risk of extremely minor spoilers: could you be more specific? I'm like 99% sure it's the one in the episode The Long, Twilight Struggle.
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Dec 18, 2018 16:24
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ConfusedUs posted:At the risk of extremely minor spoilers: could you be more specific? The scene where the Narn surrender to the Centauri and G'kar gives his speech about freedom.
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Dec 18, 2018 16:26
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ThingOne posted:The scene where the Narn surrender to the Centauri and G'kar gives his speech about freedom. Yeah, that's a really good one! And you ain't seen nothin' yet.
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Dec 18, 2018 16:32
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ConfusedUs posted:Yeah, that's a really good one! I'm looking forward to it. Since The Coming of Shadows Londo and G'kar have dominated every scene they're in.
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Dec 18, 2018 16:52
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ThingOne posted:That scene between Londo and G'kar in the council chamber was incredible. It's hard to imagine that just last season they seemed like a drunken wastrel and a petty villain. Londo's "rise" has been especially tragic since he's gotten exactly what he wanted and is starting to realize it wasn't what he wanted at all. The ongoing development of the relationship between these two has been one of my favorite arcs throughout the series. Seeing (season 4 spoiler) Londo offer a reconciliatory drink to G'kar and having him wordlessly pour it out was a huge gently caress YES moment.
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Dec 18, 2018 17:50
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Edit: I have bad post timing. Someone, post!
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Dec 18, 2018 18:22
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I'm just going to concur strongly with "You ain't seen nothin' yet."
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Dec 18, 2018 19:12
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