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I've never been so excited for the last episode of an anime before.  Larryb posted:Of course then at the end of that movie the truamatized girl then captures said Savior when all is said and done and then traps everyone in a new reality that she controls. Speaking of which it's kind of a pity that the proposed third movie in that series never got off the ground. Man, so Madoka just kinda ends on a cliffhanger? That's so weird.
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Dec 19, 2018 05:29
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Madoka doesn't end plot-wise but thematically I dont really know where you go from there. The original series had a pretty solid ending and Rebellion was like a commentary on that ending, and it's complete in that way. And the third movie was described as 'taking the fight to the incubators' which sounds like the absolute least interesting thing you could possibly do.
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Dec 19, 2018 05:41
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I never really followed Madoka too closely, so I frankly couldn't begin to comment on what the actual themes are, but leaving a well-loved series on a cliffhanger is kind of the worst thing.
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Dec 19, 2018 05:50
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The series has a rock solid ending.
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Dec 19, 2018 05:54
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I think they could never make another Madoka and the story would be perfectly satisfying as is. I think Rebellion was a perfectly valid extrapolation of the TV show's themes. I also know that the movie was super divisive so I'm sure many don't share this opinion.
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Dec 19, 2018 05:55
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I feel like you could maybe make another Madoka story out of trying to find some way to bring Madoka and Homura's contradictory wishes into some kind of balance and find a status quo that doesn't involve Homura hating herself, personally, but I'm not sure the will is there at Shaft or with Urobuchi, and I don't think you really need to either.
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Dec 19, 2018 05:58
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I would be all for Shinbou or Urobuchi finding a way to take the story there. But yeah they don't seem interested atm.
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Dec 19, 2018 06:03
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Cuntellectual posted:I never really followed Madoka too closely, so I frankly couldn't begin to comment on what the actual themes are, but leaving a well-loved series on a cliffhanger is kind of the worst thing. It's not really a cliffhanger so much as an open-ended situation; the central conflict of the movie is resolved, but in a way that's messy and obviously unstable in the long run.
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Dec 19, 2018 06:06
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Thuryl posted:It's not really a cliffhanger so much as an open-ended situation; the central conflict of the movie is resolved, but in a way that's messy and obviously unstable in the long run. Kind of like the show's ending, then.
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Dec 19, 2018 06:26
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Sakurazuka posted:They're both basically just Dark City freaking this!
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Dec 19, 2018 06:27
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I don't usually self-promote, but I had been accumulating a lot of thoughts about Alexis and how well the show uses him over the last couple of weeks, and I decided to put them into a blog post and I'm actually pretty happy with how it turned out. That's over here if that's a thing anyone cares to read.
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Dec 19, 2018 07:05
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I really need to watch this show.
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Dec 19, 2018 08:44
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Spiritus Nox posted:I don't usually self-promote, but I had been accumulating a lot of thoughts about Alexis and how well the show uses him over the last couple of weeks, and I decided to put them into a blog post and I'm actually pretty happy with how it turned out. That's over here if that's a thing anyone cares to read. I appreciated this, you put to words a lot of why I find Alexis so unsettling.
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Dec 19, 2018 09:11
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Schwarzwald posted:Kind of like the show's ending, then. The show's ending wasn't obviously unstable, though. It had lasted for thousands of years (retroactively), and was a clear, massive improvement on the previous world order. Madoka achieved her dream of doing something important to help people, magical girls now ended their careers with a reward for their struggles as opposed to a final twist of the knife, and even Kyubey's whole "Entropy is bad" side of the balance sheet was accounted for. (The obvious question of what happens to Madoka's witch was one of the first things countered. Madoka destroys it, of course. She's making it so nobody has to become a witch, so why leave a Madoka shaped exception?) It's incredibly important to understanding Madoka and Homura's characters that part of the reason Homura had so much trouble keeping Madoka alive was that, fundamentally, it meant keeping Madoka from being Madoka. The strong, heroic, self-sacrificing magical girl she fell in love with could only exist when Madoka was free to make her own choices, and a Madoka free to make her own choices is, at first opportunity, going to do something self-sacrificing and heroic. Yes, there's tragedy to the ending, but ultimately, it's shown to be Madoka being the most Madoka possible, with Homura finally accepting that, and being promised a reunion once her will runs out and her fight reaches an end. It's a firm, bittersweet conclusion. (Kyubey's interest in witches leads to the film, yes, but without the film as a followup, it's just establishing that he's still the same piece of poo poo even when he isn't actively doing harm.) The equilibrium in the film, meanwhile, is explicitly shown to be unstable. Sayaka promises to fight against Homura, and Homura's world is in opposition to Madoka's own desires, which kind of dooms it. Thus, curiosity about how it all comes crashing down. A bit different, basically.
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Dec 19, 2018 09:21
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You make a good point about the movie ending. I still think the show's ending was somewhat unstable because it left Homura as a tortured soul who's only salvation was death, which the movie retroactively made a bigger deal than it seemed at the end of the show. But thematically I think the endpoint of the movie works as a pure tragedy.
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Dec 19, 2018 15:11
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CMD posted:I really need to watch this show. You can binge it all on Saturday before the finale airs 
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Dec 19, 2018 15:19
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ViggyNash posted:You make a good point about the movie ending. I still think the show's ending was somewhat unstable because it left Homura as a tortured soul who's only salvation was death, which the movie retroactively made a bigger deal than it seemed at the end of the show. But thematically I think the endpoint of the movie works as a pure tragedy. Well you're not wrong about it being a pure tragedy...
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Dec 19, 2018 15:20
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Definitely thinking that 'the hearts of all are connected' is likely to be an indicator that the non-alien cast are all dissociated fragments of Akane's personality, and she will heal by recombining with them. It would make a lot of sense given what we've seen so far.
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Dec 19, 2018 15:33
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Darth Walrus posted:Definitely thinking that 'the hearts of all are connected' is likely to be an indicator that the non-alien cast are all dissociated fragments of Akane's personality, and she will heal by recombining with them. It would make a lot of sense given what we've seen so far. Eh, it would make sense but I kind of hope that's not what happens. The rest of the cast - Rikka and Utsumi and Anti in particular - have displayed too much individual agency and established themselves as their own characters for me to feel super great about that. Would feel less like Akane self-actualizing and more like her just eating everybody.
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Dec 19, 2018 15:41
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Darth Walrus posted:Definitely thinking that 'the hearts of all are connected' is likely to be an indicator that the non-alien cast are all dissociated fragments of Akane's personality, and she will heal by recombining with them. It would make a lot of sense given what we've seen so far. Akane Tang
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Dec 19, 2018 16:30
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Yak of Wrath posted:Akane Tang Giant Naked Akane
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Dec 19, 2018 16:31
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chiasaur11 posted:The show's ending wasn't obviously unstable, though. It wasn't, though. The previous world order was "aliens profit from exploiting the most desperate in society through coercing them into a deal that will soon kill them" and the new world order is "aliens profit from exploiting the most desperate in society through coercing them into a deal that will soon kill them." Homura get's her with that Madoka doesn't die, and Madoka get's her wish that magical girls don't turn into evil hyper-demons, and in that sense the central conflict was resolved. But despite those changes the system is still in place, it's still killing killing people, and therefore it will continue to produce people like Homura and Madoka. The equilibrium never comes.
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Dec 19, 2018 16:53
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Schwarzwald posted:It wasn't, though. The previous world order was "aliens profit from exploiting the most desperate in society through coercing them into a deal that will soon kill them" and the new world order is "aliens profit from exploiting the most desperate in society through coercing them into a deal that will soon kill them." 
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Dec 19, 2018 16:59
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Spiritus Nox posted:I don't usually self-promote, but I had been accumulating a lot of thoughts about Alexis and how well the show uses him over the last couple of weeks, and I decided to put them into a blog post and I'm actually pretty happy with how it turned out. That's over here if that's a thing anyone cares to read. That’s some very spot on analysis, it is definitely highly appreciated. As much as I’m interested in the diagetic agenda of Alexis, I think that you’ve hit the nail on the head with his thematic role, and I think that, assuming that Trigger doesn’t drop the ball with the finale, that it will prove to be accurate once the story is complete. BTW, really hoping that Trigger doesn’t drop the ball with the finale.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:15
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I have a small theory that Akane's trash bags are each the remaining data from when she eliminated someone, which both makes them much creepier and creates an out to restore everyone she had killed.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:51
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Spiritus Nox posted:I don't usually self-promote, but I had been accumulating a lot of thoughts about Alexis and how well the show uses him over the last couple of weeks, and I decided to put them into a blog post and I'm actually pretty happy with how it turned out. That's over here if that's a thing anyone cares to read. I like this take a lot - Alexis as the physical embodiment of online radicalization is a brilliant insight, and if it's what the show follows through on what it's implying, it'll probably be the most clever message Trigger's communicated to date.
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Dec 20, 2018 06:35
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Ultraklystron posted:I like this take a lot - Alexis as the physical embodiment of online radicalization is a brilliant insight, and if it's what the show follows through on what it's implying, it'll probably be the most clever message Trigger's communicated to date. To be fair, I'm not sure how specifically the writer (who, it should be noted, isn't a Trigger regular) or director were honed in on lovely Online Cult Recruiters as opposed to just toxic and predatory relationships in general, but I sure appreciate that they've made a thing that supports that particular reading so well.
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Dec 20, 2018 06:41
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Spiritus Nox posted:To be fair, I'm not sure how specifically the writer (who, it should be noted, isn't a Trigger regular) or director were honed in on lovely Online Cult Recruiters as opposed to just toxic and predatory relationships in general, but I sure appreciate that they've made a thing that supports that particular reading so well. Yeah, very true, Akane/Alexis could just as easily fit general cultural abandonment and the radicalization it encourages at this point - "I don't care if you become a monster, just do your job, produce for my benefit" fits a lot of different kind of exploitative relationships. It's the creative in a studio working burnout schedules on poverty wages; it's the office worker not getting home until 11pm; it's the abusive relative; it's the dominant economic system left to it's own devices. SSSS is broad enough at the moment to capture all that. I hope they stick that landing.
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Dec 20, 2018 06:51
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Cuntellectual posted:I never really followed Madoka too closely, so I frankly couldn't begin to comment on what the actual themes are, but leaving a well-loved series on a cliffhanger is kind of the worst thing. It's not a cliffhanger, the original tv series has a bittersweet ending and many people wished that Madoka could have avoided her sacrifice (Homura included). Well, the movie grants that wish and gives everybody one hell of a faustian bargain. It fits pretty well.
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Dec 20, 2018 07:43
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trucutru posted:It's not a cliffhanger, the original tv series has a bittersweet ending and many people wished that Madoka could have avoided her sacrifice (Homura included). Well, the movie grants that wish and gives everybody one hell of a faustian bargain. It fits pretty well. The thing is she could have. Madoka was too attached to the the idea of a magical girl friendship circle and retconning the horrible fates of magical girls past to fully do away with the system. Otherwise she could just have wished Kyubey and the whole system away and been friends with Homura and the gang. But she didn't. And that decision destroyed Homura.
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Dec 20, 2018 15:58
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Kyubey also told her that humans civilization is thanks to the incubator involvement in history, so there's a risk there, what if he's not lying. Glad there's so much good madoka discussion, loved that series and it introduced me to a lot of woke ideas but theres so many bizarre readings of that series on the net.
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Dec 20, 2018 16:03
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Yeah good point. Maybe change it to Kyubey still develops human civilization but doesn't do so by instating the mg system? But I think he also said something like the mgs he created are the ones that did the work of furthering humanity so yeah there's a risk. I guess the ideal in that case would be end the system as is from that point on, or maybe from a little bit before the show's start to save Sayaka.
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Dec 20, 2018 17:29
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ViggyNash posted:Yeah good point. Maybe change it to Kyubey still develops human civilization but doesn't do so by instating the mg system? But I think he also said something like the mgs he created are the ones that did the work of furthering humanity so yeah there's a risk. I guess the ideal in that case would be end the system as is from that point on, or maybe from a little bit before the show's start to save Sayaka. If Kyubey's exposition dump isn't a lie, then you potentially destroy any future benefit and development humanity might undergo as a result of future magical girls coming into being.
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Dec 20, 2018 19:47
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Kanos posted:If Kyubey's exposition dump isn't a lie, then you potentially destroy any future benefit and development humanity might undergo as a result of future magical girls coming into being. Also, in the long run, you increase entropy and allow the heat death of the universe. Not the worst thing ever, maybe, but another bit to factor in. (And I really doubt that expo-dump is a lie. One of the reasons Kyubey's such an interesting piece of trash is that his lies tend to be technically true, just incredibly misleading. For example, not "You could save Sayaka!" but "It's impossible, probably. That said, you're a magical girl, and everything you do is in violation of the laws of the universe, so...")
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Dec 20, 2018 21:50
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The whole "heat death of the universe" angle that Kyubey tried to push was such rank bullshit that I'm surprised more people haven't caught on. It's energy from nothing, yes, it's alot, yes, but it's not infinite, and it's not sustainable. In any scenario that Earth collapsed from its emotional energy spiraling out of control, the plan was to abandon it, possibly for another planet with emotional beings whose energy can be harvested. Which in the long run will do nothing to stave off entropy across the entire timespan of the universe. Kyubey is a sleazy oilman, rolling into a region, draining the life and energy out, and then skipping town after the consequences.
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Dec 20, 2018 22:15
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Phobophilia posted:The whole "heat death of the universe" angle that Kyubey tried to push was such rank bullshit that I'm surprised more people haven't caught on. It's energy from nothing, yes, it's alot, yes, but it's not infinite, and it's not sustainable. In any scenario that Earth collapsed from its emotional energy spiraling out of control, the plan was to abandon it, possibly for another planet with emotional beings whose energy can be harvested. Which in the long run will do nothing to stave off entropy across the entire timespan of the universe. To be very slightly fair, I'm not sure whether that means the incubators would describe their plan as fraudulent. They might just, perfectly rationally, point out that buying time is still better for their own survival than doing nothing - and being emotionless themselves leaves them basically incapable of grasping any of the most meaningful consequences of their actions. I always got the impression that Kyuubey wasn't a liar so much as its priorities are simply alien and completely divorced from human ones. Alexis comes off like a liar and a sonovabitch, to circle back around to the actual thead, but Kyuubey just seems like he flatly Can't Compute why any of its actions are actually bad.
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Dec 20, 2018 22:21
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I mean Kyuubey is completely alien to human understanding of the world, but that's just cause the alien interaction with humans is rare and we only see it from the perspective of the girls. Kyuubey himself describes humanity as a cash crop like raising cattle, so they aren't totally elderich in nature and can communicate with humanity. They just have no empathy and don't care about their happiness, partly because they don't understand sadness or happiness, and partly because of their own superiority complex. They just don't give a crap and view humanity like logs for the fire or plants. Just a resource, and don't value sentience or whatever.
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Dec 20, 2018 22:36
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He specifically says that they treat humanity way better than humans treat livestock because they make it a voluntary choice. Ya know, like the choice they gave Mami.
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Dec 20, 2018 22:40
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a kitten posted:He specifically says that they treat humanity way better than humans treat livestock because they make it a voluntary choice. She could have died! The incubators left that option right there, freely available, with no additional incentives from them. Not their fault humans care so much about living or dying. (Or, for that matter, their fault she didn't wish to save her family, or their fault the accident happened.) The thing I love about the incubators is that they're actually alien, with a distinct moral code that's strange to us, but clearly a real thing for them... while still being absolute shits.
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Dec 20, 2018 22:50
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Well, shits from our perspective at least. I'm sure pigs and cows would have some words and bullets for us were they competent enough to manage that, even if they were all farmed in a 'humane' manner. Also I swear there used to be a Madoka discussion thread for all this, we should probably get back to Akane somehow becoming a Kaiju next episode.
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Dec 21, 2018 00:50
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