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If you get a promotion with no raise I’m of the opinion you take it if it increases potential earnings. Good opportunity to look for a new job though. Elsewhere.
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Dec 7, 2018 18:57
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You don't get raises by asking for them, you get raises by jumping to a different company. In theory I'm inclined to agree with Jordan--take the extra responsibilities at no extra pay if you must, and immediately seek a new employer that will give you both--although it can be hard to sell to prospective employers that "I have been doing Responsibilities X, Y and Z" if your job title doesn't reflect that. I'd be very leery of accepting responsibilities that really should entail a promotion without the promotion, because that poo poo can kind of haunt you going forward too. I can see it the other way, though. I've seen people move up by quietly absorbing other people's (and even other departments') responsibilities and then ultimately staging a one-person coup by successfully arguing to an upper manager that I've been doing this and that for a while now, so, really, Jim and Kate and Bill should be reporting to me. But the people who do that know what they're doing and invest tons of effort into networking; they don't just back into it by meekly allowing their boss to foist his own responsibilities on them. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 18:59
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I think this stuff becomes extremely subjective and situation dependent. There are times you should absolutely accept responsibilities without the pay if it gets you specific experiences that are important to your career development. Your compensation isn't just salary, opportunities have value too. You just need to be intentional about what you do.
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Dec 7, 2018 19:21
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Jordan7hm posted:I think this stuff becomes extremely subjective and situation dependent. There are times you should absolutely accept responsibilities without the pay if it gets you specific experiences that are important to your career development. Your compensation isn't just salary, opportunities have value too. You just need to be intentional about what you do. I do agree with you, of course, that opportunities have value and that additional responsibilities can be a gateway to new opportunities and career development. But in the same way that all education is voluntary, if you haven't decided you're going to use (or even recognize) the opportunity as career development then it's worthless. You have to have a value in mind in order for it to be valuable, and if it's an out of left field, "Hey how does doing more work sound?" then it's still in "worthless territory."
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Dec 7, 2018 19:26
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Accept the responsibilities onto your resume whether or not you actually continue doing the job for very long, assuming they are responsibilities you'd be interested in having in future jobs that pay fairly. Maybe I have rose-colored glasses from living in the programmer cash-cow years, but I think you should lean towards accepting them. You should be changing jobs frequently enough that no foist is particularly long term and it's probably not a huge deal even if you don't do a very good job. I understand not everyone wants to operate like that though - don't accept the foist if you will feel guilty being lax in the responsibilities it brings.
Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 7, 2018 |
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Dec 7, 2018 19:43
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Hoodwinker posted:This is why I'd rather lean towards giving the advice, "Don't accept additional responsibilities without compensation" even though the full advice is, "Don't arbitrarily accept additional responsibilities without compensation." In the absence of situationally-dependent information, I'd rather err on the side of the least amount of poo poo-foisting. Yeah, I get that. I think the blanket "don't accept additional responsibility without additional compensation" advice can lead to pretty stagnant careers though. The advice is really just "don't get hosed by your employer".
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Dec 7, 2018 20:04
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Jordan7hm posted:Yeah, I get that. I think the blanket "don't accept additional responsibility without additional compensation" advice can lead to pretty stagnant careers though.
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Dec 8, 2018 02:16
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On a similar note, what's the best way to talk my boss into giving me a title upgrade that doesn't come across as "I'm going to use this as extra leverage to get a job elsewhere"? My manager and I are figuring out a time for my EOY review, and in passing he mentioned that he is pushing for pay increases for myself and the two other people in my group; I assume this means more than a COL increase as my EOY bonus was the largest I've ever received here. I figure that if (when?) that pay increase doesn't pan out it'll be as good a time as any to say "since that raise you teased didn't actually happen, how about a better job title?". Maybe I need to demonstrate how titles changes for me/us make sense for the business? The responsibilities of the group as a whole have expanded in an obvious way this year, and it makes sense to give us titles that better reflect what we're doing now.
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Dec 10, 2018 02:24
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I have an offer letter sitting on my desk for an internal promotion. I’ve been in the group one year but someone retired and my manager was pushing for me to apply. Same group, but a higher level/title. He just handed me my year end raise paperwork, up about 2.75%, and then the offer letter, which is about 4% up from the annual raise. This feels low to me. 60(pre annual raise)-65(promotion salary) isn’t nothing, but 62(post annual raise)-65 feels small for a promotion. This was handed to me about half an hour ago, so before the end of the day I’m going to talk to him to see if there’s any wiggle room here. I know the “hiring range” posted with the position was 56-70, so I’m going to ask for 68. The position will be pivoting in a slightly different direction than what it was previously, so I’m hoping to talk up my ability to adapt and my familiarity with the new tasks that will be involved. If he says no he says no, but this thread tells me it’s worth asking. There are very rigid PTO/benefit structures at this company, so those things aren’t options to negotiate with. We’ll see.
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Dec 11, 2018 22:41
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Interview at other site went well! Wore a suit and everything. After the tour the recruiter called me in and tried to get me to talk salary. I refused to say a number, and talked about career progression. Talked around and around for 30 minutes then said said he’d meet with the team about an offer and call tomorrow. He said managers start at 3k less and acknowledge I’d been working and learning for a year. I told him that I want to move forward and hoped this position would be more, and that I am moving away from friends and family Gonna ask about relocation money tomorrow too. Never know if you don’t ask. Thanks for all the help y’all. Update: more money! No pay cut! Wife happy! Thanks again! BBQ Dave fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Dec 13, 2018 |
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Dec 12, 2018 01:00
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New twist I wasn’t expecting, they couldn’t give me the increase I wanted because it would put me above someone on the team who is in a higher band than me. I don’t think that should be my problem, but whatever. Apparently no one at all negotiates, my boss told me he’d have an answer soon, then told me later that it might be a week because they aren’t provided with an approved offer range. My counter offer was countered, then had to go up to the VP and then over up to the parent corp for additional approval. Seems like a lot of work for a small increase, but in the end they met me in the middle so it was worth it.
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Dec 15, 2018 02:14
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zelah posted:New twist I wasn’t expecting, they couldn’t give me the increase I wanted because it would put me above someone on the team who is in a higher band than me. I don’t think that should be my problem, but whatever. The only reason they didn't give you the raise they wanted was because they didn't want to. That is a bullshit excuse that they believed they could sell you. Does that other person know your salary? If not, then why does it matter?
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Dec 15, 2018 05:48
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I didn’t say it was a good excuse, but there’s a ton of nonsense policies so I’m not surprised.
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Dec 15, 2018 06:28
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I have an interview scheduled for Wednesday. This far I have been working with a recruiter and I've put off any discussion regarding salary. I did mention in the initial phone interview with the recruiter that it's very important to me to evaluate any offer with the benefits package in mind. So after the interview was scheduled he sent me the employee benefits summary. The PTO that they offer is substantially less than I am getting now. I'd need to work there 15+ years to get the number of hours I am getting currently. I know these are just words on a piece of paper, but is it worth it to ask the recruiter if this is negotiable if I were offered a position? I'm not super interested in wasting half a day in my busiest period of the year if they aren't willing to budge by quite a bit regarding PTO.
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Dec 15, 2018 14:16
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It's better to tell the recruiter things ("I am going to need either a lot more PTO than this or significantly more salary to compensate, otherwise I won't waste any more of your time") than to ask the recruiter things.
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Dec 15, 2018 16:26
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Eric the Mauve posted:It's better to tell the recruiter things ("I am going to need either a lot more PTO than this or significantly more salary to compensate, otherwise I won't waste any more of your time") than to ask the recruiter things. Thanks for this. Recruiter came back and said the employer has been up to negotiating this in the past. He also asked how much PTO I am getting now. I currently get 25 days. I know that I can only go down from whatever number I give if (if I tell him at all). The minimum I would accept is 20 days without asking for an increase in salary. Should I share either of those pieces of information? Don't mean to be so hand-held u here, but I have overshared information is the past that resulted in a low ball offer.
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Dec 15, 2018 19:43
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IMO you should no more tell him your current PTO (or any other nonsalary compensation) than you should tell him your current salary. "I will need at least 25 days of PTO." Here's a nice, simple rule of thumb for what information about your current compensation you should share with a recruiter, interviewer or prospective manager: None, ever.
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Dec 15, 2018 20:08
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Are there any specific negotiation strategies one should consider when dealing with capital? I’m trying to build some seed capital for my cleantech startup and other than there being a tiny bit more clarity in how people run valuations, ish, otherwise it sure seems a lot like BATNA, playing groups off one another without burning bridges, and exploiting information asymmetry, just like it has been everywhere I’ve ever interviewed or worked.
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Dec 15, 2018 23:01
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Sock The Great posted:ask the recruiter if this is negotiable if I were offered a position? As someone else has already mentioned; if you are negotiating, you don't ask things. You tell things. Because the answer to your 'question' is 'no it is not negotiable' while if you tell them you often find out that it is. Sock The Great posted:I currently get 25 days. Nope. Ask for 30.
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Dec 17, 2018 15:19
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Namarrgon posted:you don't ask things. You tell things. Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Dec 17, 2018 16:56
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Does anyone have any general tips for negotiating when your position is converting from a contract position (W2 through a staffing agency) to a full-time employee? I don't believe I've seen that specific scenario in this thread. I'll take any general input, but here are some specifics about my scenario:
If I get an offer for this, it won't be for at least another month or two, so I just wanted to prepare myself in advance. Any general or specific input on this situation is greatly appreciated!
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Dec 18, 2018 18:20
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m0therfux0r posted:Does anyone have any general tips for negotiating when your position is converting from a contract position (W2 through a staffing agency) to a full-time employee? I don't believe I've seen that specific scenario in this thread. When I converted from contract to hired I emphasized that I would have to deal with serious issues even before my official hire date and that I would be productive from day 1 with no training required. In light of this, I see xx,xxx as a competitive compensation package. Your BATNA isn't very strong, but use what you got.
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Dec 19, 2018 09:50
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Since my current job, which has decent work/life balance and a great commute keeps restructuring (and my manager is being replaced by an as of yet undetermined outsider) I started considering a move. I am also underpaid for what I do by quite some margin, and they keep putting off any customary negotiation opportunity. I am now interviewing for a job that has my 'want' price as the absolute minimum, but a somewhat shittier commute (gotta pass a backed up bridge at rush hour every day). I'd like to know how some of you would value this in respect to a very significant pay increase (~26% if I were to take the minimum)?
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Dec 19, 2018 16:19
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I greatly value my time and will pay a lot to avoid long commutes, personally, but that's a decision you have to make for yourself. Probably a good idea to negotiate up and jump to the new job regardless, though, due to the upheaval and uncertainty at your current job. Your next job won't be your last job. Your new salary will establish a new baseline to negotiate your next next job from.
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Dec 19, 2018 16:38
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SEKCobra posted:Since my current job, which has decent work/life balance and a great commute keeps restructuring (and my manager is being replaced by an as of yet undetermined outsider) I started considering a move. I am also underpaid for what I do by quite some margin, and they keep putting off any customary negotiation opportunity. I am now interviewing for a job that has my 'want' price as the absolute minimum, but a somewhat shittier commute (gotta pass a backed up bridge at rush hour every day). I'd consider the total time as your workday and evaluate based on that at minimum. Commutes are terrible and I wouldn't go over 15 minutes now though I've done 45 in the past.
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Dec 19, 2018 16:54
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Eric the Mauve posted:Your next job won't be your last job. Your new salary will establish a new baseline to negotiate your next next job from. This is so goddamn important to understand.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:29
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asur posted:I'd consider the total time as your workday and evaluate based on that at minimum. Commutes are terrible and I wouldn't go over 15 minutes now though I've done 45 in the past.
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Dec 22, 2018 23:02
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Jordan7hm posted:This is so goddamn important to understand. And incorrect. Your current salary should in no way effect your next salary.
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Dec 22, 2018 23:20
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ratbert90 posted:And incorrect. Your current salary should in no way effect your next salary. That seems pretty wrong? Your current salary (including the whole benefits package) should be a floor for your next salary at a minimum.
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Dec 22, 2018 23:51
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bamhand posted:That seems pretty wrong? Your current salary (including the whole benefits package) should be a floor for your next salary at a minimum. I get where ratbert90 is coming from, but it turns out the answer is a lot more complicated than black and white. Surprise surprise. No, you shouldn't be giving up your salary information during a negotiation. But your total comp absolutely does provide an anchor mentally and the telegraphing of that anchor past mental is your title and tenure in the line of work. Oh wait, so you say I can just hold an inflated title and be underpaid and be fine on the next job as a way to move up? No, you can't. Because that means you're the kind of person who doesn't know how to negotiate properly so you will get dicked on your next job also. Increasing the bone density of your spine takes time.
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Dec 22, 2018 23:58
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bamhand posted:That seems pretty wrong? Your current salary (including the whole benefits package) should be a floor for your next salary at a minimum. It should be a floor, but far too often people will go “my current salary is X, so I will ask for ${x} + y%” which is dumb and bad. It should be: This job requires X, and the market for this job pays Y. Your old salary should never ever EVER determine the maximum; and far too often it does.
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Dec 23, 2018 00:07
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ratbert90 posted:It should be a floor, but far too often people will go “my current salary is X, so I will ask for ${x} + y%” which is dumb and bad. What you are missing in your otherwise very correct assessment there is that you don't get that better paying job at market rate without the relevant experience (and very often previous title) and actually negotiating for the correct market pay. There is both a loose experience/job requirement, a skill and a mindset required to pull this off. Looking at it in a vacuum as if everyone is qualified for the position they are trying to apply for and was qualified for the last one really diminishes the value of advice given in this thread. Situations like this are nuanced. People change careers, people stretch for things when there are job openings. People legitimately take bad deals temporarily to set themselves up for good deals in the future. The constant to this is that most are very adverse to going down in salary. So the most powerful emotional anchor is in fact your current salary.
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Dec 23, 2018 00:15
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Motronic posted:What you are missing in your otherwise very correct assessment there is that you don't get that better paying job at market rate without the relevant experience (and very often previous title) and actually negotiating for the correct market pay. There is both a loose experience/job requirement, a skill and a mindset required to pull this off. I would agree. You should always be striving for a better salary, and your current salary should be a floor most of the time. But it should only be used as that, a floor, and other than a mental "I will not go below this" note, it should have no bearing on the next jobs cap.
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Dec 23, 2018 00:35
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ratbert90 posted:It should be a floor, but far too often people will go “my current salary is X, so I will ask for ${x} + y%” which is dumb and bad. Hey I agree with this. But as motronics says it absolutely creates a floor. ratbert90 posted:I would agree. You should always be striving for a better salary, and your current salary should be a floor most of the time. But it should only be used as that, a floor, and other than a mental "I will not go below this" note, it should have no bearing on the next jobs cap. The mental “I will not go below this” note that basically everyone signs up for is why it determines the floor of your next job. Agreed that it shouldn’t speak to the ceiling. In the context you see here, where people are looking to improve their salary, I’m obviously speaking about how it impacts the salary floor you’ll accept at your next job.
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Dec 23, 2018 01:07
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Jordan7hm posted:Hey I agree with this. But as motronics says it absolutely creates a floor. Other than in very specific circumstances, most of which are ill advised and related to career change. The few mostly okay ones I see are related to moving to a lower cost of living area and solving for X where X is the difference between the cost of living in the old place vs. the new one. But even then you should probably be getting a premium over that for the move unless it was exuberantly voluntary (you know, like someone getting the gently caress out of the bay area....that makes a pay cut totally worth it).
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Dec 23, 2018 01:19
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So I got an offer Friday morning from Company A who offered slightly more than what I make at my (soon to be) previous job. (About a $1-2k increase) I have an interview with Company B tomorrow and already know the salary will be a $5k increase, assuming they do give me an offer. My interview with Company A went exceptionally well and I really am enthusiastic about working for them, i will probably be accepting their offer but obviously want more compensation, so my idea is to say something along the lines of: "I'm very thrilled that you have extended this job offer to me, and I believe [Company A] I will be an excellent fit for me, however I have received another offer of [$##] from [Company B] and would like to ask if you would be able to match their offer." Has anybody ever used another offer as leverage like this? Just want to hear some perspectives. I'll also post back with my results since they're expecting a call from me tomorrow to accept/deny/delay their offer. bolded for Tl;dr as I tend to ramble like a teenager on adderall Fratstar_Eatpuss fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 06:03
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Yes, of course you use another offer as leverage. That offer is now your BATNA, and a far stronger BATNA than remaining at your current job. I'd phrase it differently though. Don't say please, and don't tell them the amount of the other offer. If e.g. you currently make $85,000, Company A's offer is $87,000 and Company B's offer is $90,000, you tell them (tell, don't ask) "I'm excited to join your team. I do have another offer for significantly better compensation. But if you can meet me at $100,000 then I'll sign on with you." Don't require the minimum you'll accept. Require significantly more than that. Leave room for them to bargain down to a number you'll still be happy with. And don't forget that in many cases, there are aspects of compensation other than salary to consider and that can be negotiated! edit: and obviously you don't just negotiate with one company, you negotiate with both.
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Jan 7, 2019 15:42
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Yeah my fiancee just did that and ended up with an offer 20k over what she was willing to except (she really didn't like her previous job). She phrased it as I'm really excited about X as it really fits in with my interests/career goals etc. But I have another offer at a higher salary, I would prefer to join your company if you could meet me at salary Y. Figured it couldn't hurt to sweet talk them a little with how great a fit you think the role is etc. and that you'd love to do that type of work.
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Jan 7, 2019 16:17
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yes, of course you use another offer as leverage. That offer is now your BATNA, and a far stronger BATNA than remaining at your current job. This is an entry-level position and pretty much my second job out of college and even though I have good experience I don't have a whole lot of it and my major is kind of irrelevant, so I feel like what you're telling me to do is a little too much of a power move. Either that or I'm just not confident enough to say it, but that's still great advice, thank you. I already called the HR person about the offer and they said what they're offering me is already a few dollars over their range (yeah right) but she'll see what she can do and call me back. So I think the fact that it wasn't shot down immediately right then and there means I'm looking at getting a higher offer, maybe not the exact number, but definitely more. Will report back soon with results bamhand posted:Figured it couldn't hurt to sweet talk them a little with how great a fit you think the role is etc. and that you'd love to do that type of work. Yeah I made sure to do just that. And the good thing is I actually meant it too, this company has great benefits (401k match adds up to 10%) and PTO, and the overall culture and people are great and I clicked with them. Edit: Got the call from HR. They matched it, not gonna push my luck further so I took the job offer. Thank you to everyone for all the amazing information, without this thread I never would have had the guts to negotiate and now ya boy is PAID Fratstar_Eatpuss fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 17:34
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Fratstar_Eatpuss posted:This is an entry-level position and pretty much my second job out of college and even though I have good experience I don't have a whole lot of it and my major is kind of irrelevant, so I feel like what you're telling me to do is a little too much of a power move. Either that or I'm just not confident enough to say it, but that's still great advice, thank you. Congrats on getting them to bump up your salary a bit, but I think you're very misguided on this part. Here's a few things to keep in mind when it comes to the negotiating stage: 1. They want to hire you. You've passed all the interviews and they think you are the best fit for the position right now. They will go to great lengths to make sure to hire you. They have already looked at your experience and your major and have decided that they still want to hire you, so they don't give a gently caress about that and neither should you. 2. It will almost definitely be more expensive to go through the entire recruiting process again than to seriously consider your demands. You have a lot more power than you realize at the offer stage, so you can definitely be bold.
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Jan 7, 2019 19:53
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