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I wish Japan/China would open a front with the Russians already.
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Dec 19, 2018 08:50
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This will be the Eternal War.
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Dec 19, 2018 09:29
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Grammarchist posted:I take it Japan and China are still making non-committal noises and steering clear of all this? As amazing as this has been to follow, I can't really blame them. I've had the "War Expands" event fire for Japan a couple times, but no dice. I was thinking about maybe writing a special event where we sell them the rest of our Indian possessions, and in return they join the war? Wasn't sure about it though. And we don't have any history of friendly relations with China, so they're not interested either.
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Dec 19, 2018 13:30
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We'd totally sell them our Indian holdings for backup, so I'd support it.MaxieSatan posted:If you haven't already exiled yourself or thrown in with the revolutionaries and disavowed your birthright, I don't think much below the shoulders is going to make it there. Since we're all nobles even if we happily joined up with the Reds during the civil war we would still have ended up getting purged after the Rais had secured power. Only those smart enough to get out while the getting was good are left.
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Dec 19, 2018 13:55
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Hashim posted:I've had the "War Expands" event fire for Japan a couple times, but no dice. I was thinking about maybe writing a special event where we sell them the rest of our Indian possessions, and in return they join the war? Wasn't sure about it though. This would have been a great idea especially since the Socialists haven’t shown any interest in the colonies anyways.
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Dec 19, 2018 15:12
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tbh it sort of seems like a desperation move - if i'm right about the ideological makeup of this government, they would on paper be committed to full equality of the indian people within the iberian union probably the deal would shake out something like having a "fair" plebiscite as to whether they could accept japanese overlordship, dressed up as an independence candidate or something what i'm saying is, if the situation looks desperate, it could be done as i doubt the rais gives a toss about india
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Dec 19, 2018 15:35
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The Rais is ultimately an ultranationalist, I'd see him giving up India for war support.
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Dec 19, 2018 15:48
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Dance Officer posted:The Rais is ultimately an ultranationalist, I'd see him giving up India for war support. this really doesn't work with how things have shaken out thus far, the main basis for mobilisation in the communist movement have been in the minority regions - the communist uprising seems to have been, in part, an attempt to answer the modern question of how a country made up of multiple nations can hold together making him an andalusi nationalist really doesn't work, as the iberian union was in large part specifically an uprising against andalusi chauvinism
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Dec 19, 2018 16:15
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V. Illych L. posted:the japanese really really should take this opportunity to flex some muscles in india or something, the great powers are never going to be this distracted again Yeah, so many people have died. How could there possibly be a second great war? 
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Dec 19, 2018 16:18
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V. Illych L. posted:this really doesn't work with how things have shaken out thus far, the main basis for mobilisation in the communist movement have been in the minority regions - the communist uprising seems to have been, in part, an attempt to answer the modern question of how a country made up of multiple nations can hold together if he wasn't an andalusi nationalist then it really doesn't make sense that he conquered southern Iberia and kept the country together. Sure, his support was a coalition of forces from the minority regions, most of which had an anti-andalusi bent, but the goal was very obviously to unite Iberia under communist rule. Not considering him an andalusi nationalist doesn't make sense.
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Dec 19, 2018 16:42
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He’s definitely an nationalist, maybe not precisely Andalusi but there has to be some element there for forming a greater union state (that’s still ruled from Qadis). Hashim posted:I've had the "War Expands" event fire for Japan a couple times, but no dice. I was thinking about maybe writing a special event where we sell them the rest of our Indian possessions, and in return they join the war? Wasn't sure about it though. I’d imagine Japan joining the war against Russia could trigger China to go vis-á-vis Top Hats Monthly fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 16:48
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Dance Officer posted:if he wasn't an andalusi nationalist then it really doesn't make sense that he conquered southern Iberia and kept the country together. Sure, his support was a coalition of forces from the minority regions, most of which had an anti-andalusi bent, but the goal was very obviously to unite Iberia under communist rule. Not considering him an andalusi nationalist doesn't make sense. The way I see it, he's probably an "Andalusi nationalist" in the sense of buying into and wanting to reinforce a pan-Iberian national identity, which supercedes and unites all regional identities, but not in the sense of "Granadan supremacy" or whatever. Given his motives, ideology, and power base, I'd expect him to be very into "melting pot" rhetoric, partly out of genuine conviction but largely out of pragmatism. "Andalusia was made great by the combined efforts of all its peoples... therefore I better not see any independence movements unless you want iron neckties to come back into fashion." Hopefully I'm not being overly optimistic there.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:33
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I don't think saying we're ruled by a Tito figure is necessarily an optimistic thing, considering what happened after Tito died.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:37
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Pakled posted:I don't think saying we're ruled by a Tito figure is necessarily an optimistic thing, considering what happened after Tito died. We’re ruled by a Hoxha type guy, which means Andalusia will never be invaded ever. but we will be the poorest in Europe
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Dec 19, 2018 17:47
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Dance Officer posted:if he wasn't an andalusi nationalist then it really doesn't make sense that he conquered southern Iberia and kept the country together. Sure, his support was a coalition of forces from the minority regions, most of which had an anti-andalusi bent, but the goal was very obviously to unite Iberia under communist rule. Not considering him an andalusi nationalist doesn't make sense. you'll recall that there was a revolution in the south as well, not exploiting that situation would've been bonkers invading random states to spread socialism is perfectly internationalist policy, though, e.g. trotsky irl, though i believe the rais to be much more of the leninist mold here - effectively, the best revolutionary propaganda is building a successful, non-exploitable socialist society and setting up the dominoes to fall. for now, though, the main priority is survival, so selling off nominally-equal territories with a fig leaf of self-determination is totally plausible. that fig leaf is necessary, though i'm not saying the union's not hypocritical, just that it makes no sense for it to be explicitly nationalist
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Dec 19, 2018 17:56
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HELL WORLD HELL WORLD LET IT ALL BURN RED
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Dec 19, 2018 17:57
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Also tbh if it’s a desperate enough situation where we would sell India, Japan could walk in and invade, for half the price
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Dec 19, 2018 18:23
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I'd be ok with a hell world as long as Benin got out ok.
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Dec 19, 2018 18:26
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V. Illych L. posted:this really doesn't work with how things have shaken out thus far, the main basis for mobilisation in the communist movement have been in the minority regions - the communist uprising seems to have been, in part, an attempt to answer the modern question of how a country made up of multiple nations can hold together The minority regions of Andalusia. While proper nationalism doesn't fit, without actual movements for democracy to spread throughout the colonies, there's nothing to actually make the central government give much of a poo poo about the wellbeing about the inhabitants of the colonial territories, and it'll be at best imperialistic paternalism and at worst doubling down on the atrocities involved with mass resource extraction without regard to human cost. Even without comparisons to the real world like how the USSR dealt with the Finns and various outlying territories, in-world there's already been the socialists very directly shunning the colonial territories and then this whole war brought hell down onto the colonies with no attempt to save them from the mother country. No amount of empty platitudes is going to turn that around, and a dictatorship like the current one is either going to take the Napoleon perspective to it's colonies, or...the Napoleon perspective? (Haiti or Louisiana respectively)
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Dec 19, 2018 18:46
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I forget is this the thread where China is still ruled by the fuckin yuan
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Dec 19, 2018 19:09
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SlothfulCobra posted:The minority regions of Andalusia. While proper nationalism doesn't fit, without actual movements for democracy to spread throughout the colonies, there's nothing to actually make the central government give much of a poo poo about the wellbeing about the inhabitants of the colonial territories, and it'll be at best imperialistic paternalism and at worst doubling down on the atrocities involved with mass resource extraction without regard to human cost. in practical terms i absolutely agree with this, but in terms of official ideology they just are not in a place where they can lean on any sort of unambiguous andalusi nationalism the party is, for now, locked into a weird pseudo-internationalism, much like the soviets but much more so since the revolution took hold in the north in the first place - imagine if lenin conquered the russian empire from a base in kiev, using mostly troops from the smaller nations within the empire this is why i'm saying that they'd be ok with selling off india, but would need some form of fig leaf, e.g. an 'independence' candidate who was actually a japanese puppet, similar to how the soviets were initially content to let certain nations go do their own thing keep in mind that nationalist minority revolts would've shattered the country, and majority nationalism was what they were rebelling against - painting union ideology as formally nationalist doesn't work, and i'd expect to see that reflected in the politics of a surviving communist regime obviously the contiguous territories are going to be prioritised, and obviously the regime will use whatever they can get their hands on in wartime propaganda, but the union cannot be formally nationalist or it'll blow up
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Dec 19, 2018 19:09
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Dance Officer posted:if he wasn't an andalusi nationalist then it really doesn't make sense that he conquered southern Iberia and kept the country together. Sure, his support was a coalition of forces from the minority regions, most of which had an anti-andalusi bent, but the goal was very obviously to unite Iberia under communist rule. Not considering him an andalusi nationalist doesn't make sense. This makes no sense on any level whatsoever. There's literally a dozen reasons for wanting to take the south that don't have anything to do with nationalism.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:29
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There are people who will insist the Rais is a benevolent, internationalist leader and then turn around to dig mass graves for the Qattaluni.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:49
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Not to be the Roleplaying Justifying War Crimes Girl but I think it's pretty hard to spin what happened in Qattalun as an uncomplicated popular rebellion, given the whole "France and Morocco actively sabotaging the Union" angle.
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Dec 19, 2018 21:03
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very early on, the revolutionary government rounded up food from the areas under their control and hoarded it all in santander getting the army fed while leaving everyone else to starve. these were some of the ancestral hotbeds of this whole socialist movement afaik, so they weren't punishing dissidents, they were just killing civilians by systematically robbing them of food. that's kinda war crimey and it sorta set the tone for me that was when i think i made the first holodomor reference in this thread. it was a joke, im not gonna make any attempt to defend the comparison cuz gently caress it, dont feel like reading the holodomor wiki rn edit: i think the affected regions would've been roughly northern portugal, galicia, and leon - all minority-heavy areas, which is probably why they were in the revolutionary heartland and eligible to get starved in the first place oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 23:10
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Top Hats Monthly posted:Also tbh if it’s a desperate enough situation where we would sell India, Japan could walk in and invade, for half the price This makes sense, so I'll probably not do it. Plus, I'd feel bad if Japan was forced into the already-spiralling war for six months or something, and then got Great War Capitulated with the rest of us.
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Dec 19, 2018 23:10
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Stellaris LP: Benin IN SPACE!
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Dec 20, 2018 01:08
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Pacho posted:Stellaris LP: Benin IN SPACE! Implying we'll ever make it to space.
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Dec 20, 2018 03:07
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loving love Fiona Apple posted:Implying we'll ever make it to space. We'll make it to space in the same way that Pancrazio of Lombardia made it to space.
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Dec 20, 2018 03:11
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We could probably reach space if we took all the dead Iberians from the civil war and great war and stacked them up.
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Dec 20, 2018 03:29
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loving love Fiona Apple posted:We could probably reach space if we took all the dead Iberians from the civil war and great war and stacked them up. Which one of them?
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Dec 20, 2018 03:33
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loving love Fiona Apple posted:Implying we'll ever make it to space. It's the justification for Stellaris: everybody else realises that abandoning Earth to Al-Andalus is probably the only way to ensure humanity's continued survival, and so we become the world government by default.
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Dec 20, 2018 03:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:Which one of them? The one where the bodies are still fresh.
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Dec 20, 2018 03:37
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The Majils are only competent in even number centuries. If we hold on to the 2200's we're in good shape!
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Dec 20, 2018 06:25
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I can already imagine Space Mejlis in action.
Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Dec 20, 2018 |
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Dec 20, 2018 07:19
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oystertoadfish posted:very early on, the revolutionary government rounded up food from the areas under their control and hoarded it all in santander getting the army fed while leaving everyone else to starve. these were some of the ancestral hotbeds of this whole socialist movement afaik, so they weren't punishing dissidents, they were just killing civilians by systematically robbing them of food. that's kinda war crimey and it sorta set the tone for me The army stealing food from civilians is pretty much the most vanilla war crime there is though, tbh I'm not really convinced it's worth remarking on.
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Dec 20, 2018 10:46
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Maybe it's just me, but if you have a literal fascist horde marching against you and your choice is to feed the army or feed civilians you feed the loving army, because if you don't then all those civilians are either dead or enslaved anyway.
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Dec 20, 2018 11:35
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Staltran posted:The army stealing food from civilians is pretty much the most vanilla war crime there is though, tbh I'm not really convinced it's worth remarking on. "Starving millions to death is not worth remarking on" -SA, 2018
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Dec 20, 2018 14:26
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It's to be expected in a bloody civil war, really. Or any war, but no one makes a big deal of millions of people starving in the Thirty Years War. Besides quote:The Black Vizier wanted to quash this petty revolution before the new year, so whilst his titanic warships blockaded and starved the coastlines of northern Iberia, he gave his officers and soldiers free rein to burn, pillage, ravage, plunder and ransack to their heart’s content, without fear of reprisal or punishment.
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Dec 20, 2018 15:39
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Cerebral Bore posted:Maybe it's just me, but if you have a literal fascist horde marching against you and your choice is to feed the army or feed civilians you feed the loving army, because if you don't then all those civilians are either dead or enslaved anyway. Nah, you feed the aristocrats and the wealthy because they are obviously the better, more important people. Let The Poors eat grass 
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Dec 20, 2018 15:54
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