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Mattis not cool with the genocide of Kurds apparently ...Oh my god this all a ploy so that Turkey backs off Trump and Jared's best friend forever MBS isn't it?
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Dec 21, 2018 04:29
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TulliusCicero posted:...Oh my god this all a ploy so that Turkey backs off Trump and Jared's best friend forever MBS isn't it? This has been the ongoing speculation. Trump traded the lives of the Kurds for Turkey no longer trolling the poo poo out of the Saudis.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:30
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So im just getting caught up on the days news, the govt is probably going to shutdown tomorrow night, no?
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Dec 21, 2018 04:30
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archangelwar posted:Italy resisting a fall to fascism changes the entire course of history and trying to equate pre-war communist movements to post-war imperial gamesmanship is emblematic of a historical understand that runs no deeper than "Commie bad." But grats on embracing fascism I guess? I'm not saying suppressing pre-war communists was a good thing. I'm not saying that overthrowing a democratically elected Allenede was a good thing. They are both objectively terrible things. I'm not even saying Communism is a bad thing. I am saying that Soviet style Communism (after Lenin's passing) is a worse thing than Western style capitalist democracies. I always wonder what would have happened if Trotsky had beat out Stalin. But thanks for reducing me to a fascist.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:31
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cr0y posted:So im just getting caught up on the days news, the govt is probably going to shutdown tomorrow night, no? Yep. Senate needs to vote on a House-passed bill with $5B for border wall. It's a no go in the Senate.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:33
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The solution is loving off entirely from the imperialist bullshit. Россия это маленькое место. ничего нового, чтобы увидеть и ничего не стоит знать (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 21, 2018 04:33
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This is loving pathetic. We don't have a long time for Dems to figure basic poo poo out, nobody accepting oil money on the committee is elementary school poo poo.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:33
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Reading the usual America is evil and the world would be better if we never existed because... I was trying think of where is the Republican constituency for withdrawal from Syria, and I can't think of any, in fact there are more on the left who are in favor if anything. I mentioned it to my wife and she said well because Turkey and Russia want it. Which makes this the most blatant example of his being a puppet for foreign powers. If this doesn't break through the Republican base I, I have no idea what's going to happen. But it scares the poo poo out of me.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:34
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This is incredible https://mobile.twitter.com/RawStory/status/1075821360780316675 https://youtu.be/9ScCMHhnkUk
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Dec 21, 2018 04:36
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Skex posted:Reading the usual America is evil and the world would be better if we never existed because... There's a huge Republican base for it, Trump's base are paleoconservatives, i.e. isolationist nationalists, not neoconservatives, i.e. interventionist nationalists. It's just that neoconservatives have had a fairly firm grip on the party since Bush II that only started slipping with Trump, less because out of intent and more because he just takes a sledgehammer to all norms he comes across, good or bad. "Ending American empire is bad because it will help Russia and China, oh no!  " continues to be my least favorite pro-empire liberal take tho because it just fundamentally misunderstands the material difference in power between Russia and China and the US.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:37
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"We must subjugate these people to save them from subjugation by <insert boogeyman>!" "We must kill these children to save them from certain death at the hands of <insert boogeyman>!"
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Dec 21, 2018 04:39
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The solution is loving off entirely from the imperialist bullshit. The problem is that there are enough of "brain genius liberals, native informers/collaborators, and people with a vested interest in the war economy" in other states that, absent a stronger international framework for order (a beefed up UN, or some other system to enforce people following agreed to rules of conduct), it just ends in the same amount of human misery and another hegemon. Laws work in states because states have a monopoly of power to enforce said laws. In an anarchic international system, you have to "treat the world like a giant RISK board" because there are no better options (that I know of). But I'm open to suggestions.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:39
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Lightning Knight posted:"Ending American empire is bad because it will help Russia and China, oh no! I don't like imperialism but an American Empire is inarguably the last bad option among the three.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:41
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Lightning Knight posted:This is a really charitable way of describing the reality that NATO is a suicide pact we made because we couldn't think of a better way of dealing with the monster we created in the form of nuclear weapons. It also ignores that the Russians are not militarily or economically in a position to fully invade their neighbors nor does that actually serve their long-term strategic goals. I agree that nuclear weapons are a scourge and support efforts to decrease stockpiles internationally but, unfortunately, we still have to live in a world in which they exist for now and need to plan around that fact. Alliances are not a great way of resolving the problem but they are a means of deterring their use. I also don't agree with your sentiment that Russia is not military or economically in a position to invade their immediate neighbors and consider the actions in Crimea and Donbass a pretty good indication of that. quote:This too. We all knew that Russia was going to be a regional power that bosses its neighbors around because that's how it's always been. We decided to kick the hornets' nest and expand NATO anyway. Now we have a lovely situation we feel responsible for and can only really make worse. Do you think Russia should have been given its own fiefdom after the collapse of the Soviet Union, opinions of the locals be damned? The United States did not force the former Eastern Bloc to join NATO. The governments of these countries and their citizens wanted membership.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:42
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enraged_camel posted:I don't like imperialism but an American Empire is inarguably the last bad option among the three. Nah that's actually really fuckin' arguable and also Russia and China flatly aren't in a position to execute empire on the scale we do nor will they be for decades at minimum. They can't just wish upon a star for a dozen aircraft carriers and trillions of dollars of advanced equipment.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:42
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mod sassinator posted:Yep. Senate needs to vote on a House-passed bill with $5B for border wall. It's a no go in the Senate. Whats the senates issue with the bill?
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Dec 21, 2018 04:43
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https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1075958793366843392?s=19
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Dec 21, 2018 04:44
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QuoProQuid posted:I agree that nuclear weapons are a scourge and support efforts to decrease stockpiles internationally but, unfortunately, we still have to live in a world in which they exist for now and need to plan around that fact. Alliances are not a great way of resolving the problem but they are a means of deterring their use. I am of the opinion we should have dissolved NATO the moment the Soviet Union fell. Crimea and Donbass are both aggressive and morally unacceptable military actions but they aren't full invasions. Russia could never sustain a long-term invasion of Ukraine the way we invaded Iraq, for example, however, nor would it serve their strategic interests. I don't think Russia bossing around their neighbors and treating them like poo poo is a good thing, but I also don't think it's our responsibility to stop them using hard military power. I also don't think someone wanting to join a military alliance automatically means we should let them (and NATO should go away as it is).
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Dec 21, 2018 04:45
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The White House got over the firing of Comey pretty quick too. Yet that seems to linger....
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Dec 21, 2018 04:46
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enraged_camel posted:I don't like imperialism but an American Empire is inarguably the last bad option among the three. Unlike the perfidious chinese and russians, the Americans have never overthrown a democratically elected government in chile and iran to install strongmen who carried out mass..oh wait Unlike the perfidious chinese and russians, the Americans have never assassinated post-colonial leaders like Patrice Lumumba...oh wait Unlike the perfidious chinese and russians, the Americans have never cooked up an excuse to illegally invade a southeast asian country, drop more ordinance on it and its neighbors than all of WWII...wait that isn't right either.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:48
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Jet fuel can't melt steel slats.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:48
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InnercityGriot posted:This is loving pathetic. We don't have a long time for Dems to figure basic poo poo out, nobody accepting oil money on the committee is elementary school poo poo. While I understand the sentiment, committees have to include both Democrats and Republicans, and setting a requirement that no one who takes fossil fuel money can be on it would be a defacto ban of Republicans on the committee. Which while once again I appreciate the sentiment would be such a blatant mockery of the idea of democracy that we might as well give up because then all of the nasty poo poo they project onto us to justify their own lovely behavior becomes true and we won't be any better than them.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:49
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The bill is DoA in the Senate because it needs 60 votes, not 50, right? Or am I missing something.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:50
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Skex posted:While I understand the sentiment, committees have to include both Democrats and Republicans, and setting a requirement that no one who takes fossil fuel money can be on it would be a defacto ban of Republicans on the committee. Which while once again I appreciate the sentiment would be such a blatant mockery of the idea of democracy that we might as well give up because then all of the nasty poo poo they project onto us to justify their own lovely behavior becomes true and we won't be any better than them. I cannot believe you are unironically making a "that would make us just as bad as them!" argument about the prospect of limiting Republican power in Congress in tyool 2018 but yet here you are.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:51
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BigRoman posted:I'm not saying suppressing pre-war communists was a good thing. I'm not saying that overthrowing a democratically elected Allenede was a good thing. They are both objectively terrible things. I'm not even saying Communism is a bad thing. I am saying that Soviet style Communism (after Lenin's passing) is a worse thing than Western style capitalist democracies. I always wonder what would have happened if Trotsky had beat out Stalin. Communist movements took a variety of forms and outcomes leading up to the war (and following), and the "Soviet style Communism" you are referencing from post-war imperial gamesmanship was directly influenced by the drive to survive multiple existential threats and a great reshuffling of the world power structure that defined the post-war period. If Italy doesn't fall to fascism, "Soviet style Communism" would mean something very different to us today.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:51
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Lightning Knight posted:I am of the opinion we should have dissolved NATO the moment the Soviet Union fell. Crimea and Donbass are both aggressive and morally unacceptable military actions but they aren't full invasions. Russia could never sustain a long-term invasion of Ukraine the way we invaded Iraq, for example, however, nor would it serve their strategic interests. I suggest that you spend some more time reading up on world history prior to WW2.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:52
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Skex posted:I suggest that you spend some more time reading up on world history prior to WW2. I seem to recall there was a big war because a bunch of stupid rear end empires made suicide pacts and also our intervention in said war resulted in Germany losing decisively which they had a big chip on their shoulder about and it was a big deal later in a different big war. Doesn't sound very promising for the prospect of military alliances to me.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:53
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Skex posted:While I understand the sentiment, committees have to include both Democrats and Republicans, and setting a requirement that no one who takes fossil fuel money can be on it would be a defacto ban of Republicans on the committee. Which while once again I appreciate the sentiment would be such a blatant mockery of the idea of democracy that we might as well give up because then all of the nasty poo poo they project onto us to justify their own lovely behavior becomes true and we won't be any better than them. Indeed, if we were to shoot at literal Nazis, that makes us as bad as those who are committed to exterminating all the Jews.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:55
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1075954128222871552
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Dec 21, 2018 04:56
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Skex posted:While I understand the sentiment, committees have to include both Democrats and Republicans, and setting a requirement that no one who takes fossil fuel money can be on it would be a defacto ban of Republicans on the committee. Which while once again I appreciate the sentiment would be such a blatant mockery of the idea of democracy that we might as well give up because then all of the nasty poo poo they project onto us to justify their own lovely behavior becomes true and we won't be any better than them. 
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Dec 21, 2018 04:56
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The problem with the whole "well if not us then it'll be someone else" mentality is that the soft power fantasy never becomes reality, it always ends in "they'll greet us as liberators" wars that kill a cool mill. It always goes out of hand and starts spreading and Americans always go for dumb solutions like getting a snake to hunt mice in an infested basement and then the snakes become a problem so you get mongooses (mongeese?) etc etc until there is a veritable zoo in that basement. And then someone will ask "Well we can't pull out now, we'll be risking destabilizing this territory! (lol)". That way your bumbling massacres never end.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:57
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Does he not realize the new congress hasn't been seated yet
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Dec 21, 2018 04:57
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Free Drinks posted:The bill is DoA in the Senate because it needs 60 votes, not 50, right? https://twitter.com/Phil_Mattingly/status/1075924208499200001 https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1075961587268313090 (ninjaedit: wrong tweet originally)
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Dec 21, 2018 04:57
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not a cult posted:The problem with the whole "well if not us then it'll be someone else" mentality is that the soft power fantasy never becomes reality, it always ends in "they'll greet us as liberators" wars that kill a cool mill. It always goes out of hand and starts spreading and Americans always go for dumb solutions like getting a snake to hunt mice in an infested basement and then the snakes become a problem so you get mongooses (mongeese?) etc etc until there is a veritable zoo in that basement. And then someone will ask "Well we can't pull out now, we'll be risking destabilizing this territory! (lol)". That way your bumbling massacres never end. It blows me away that otherwise smart people who can read a history book and recognize what patent horseshit the White Man's Burden justification was for the British Empire will turn around and make almost the exact same apology for American empire.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:58
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Lightning Knight posted:Nah that's actually really fuckin' arguable and also Russia and China flatly aren't in a position to execute empire on the scale we do nor will they be for decades at minimum. They can't just wish upon a star for a dozen aircraft carriers and trillions of dollars of advanced equipment. Russia and China are literally existent walking, talking, humanitarian crises in the form of semi-functioning nation states. China is supposedly bringing back the old Mao era forced labor camps that function to essentially genocide unwanted parts of the populace for fucks sakes. And Russia's such a dysfunctional authoritarian kleptocracy that the leaders of it think nothing of helping to bring back the nazis (despite the fact that they'd declare war on them in a heartbeat if they managed to get real power) so long as it means they can gently caress over their neighbors and rivals just a little bit more. And that's not getting into their human rights abuses when it comes to their minority population. I don't know what you think the world would look like under them but I gotta tell you that it'd be a hell of a lot worse than the US's intermittent bouts of "Well, let's go gently caress around in the Middle East for a bit to drum up the base and keep our jobs!" dumbassery. Archonex fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Dec 21, 2018 |
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Dec 21, 2018 04:58
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Free Drinks posted:The bill is DoA in the Senate because it needs 60 votes, not 50, right? pretty much. the senate in general(outside the death caucus) hates the loving wall because they know its giant vanity money sink.
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Dec 21, 2018 04:59
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Archonex posted:Russia and China are literally existent walking, talking, humanitarian crises in the form of functioning nation states. The United States maintains de facto racial segregation and concentration camps for refugees and immigrants, and routinely elects Nazis to office as well. If you want to play the whataboutism game we'll be here all night. My argument isn't about morality tho, it's that Russia and China are literally incapable of the same level of fuckery as us because we are 50% of the world's military spending and they can't replicate that nor will they be able to for decades at minimum. There is no filling of the power vacuum, America is a superpower while Russia and China are regional powers. They literally cannot craft a world order to replace ours effectively.
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Dec 21, 2018 05:00
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A forever war without and end in sight is a "bout of dumbassery".
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Dec 21, 2018 05:01
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fwiw, i dont think hard military power can make things better and people who delude themselves otherwise are responsible for infinite miseries. at best, it can stop a situation from becoming worse. but, then again, i am a moron
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Dec 21, 2018 05:02
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QuoProQuid posted:but, then again, i am a moron That's ok, so am I.  I try not to get too mad about these dumbshit arguments because at the end of the day none of us will ever have a say in who gets hosed by American empire or what it does, so our opinions on the subject matter little.
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Dec 21, 2018 05:03
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