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Coldwar timewarp posted:What the gently caress is trying to westernize them? It wasn’t meant as a perk Prato was against them, but against the mission. It’s trying to change the culture of the rural regions with western values. The soviets tried t and it worked in the cities somewhat. Don’t be a language policeman, read. Yeah. No. Most of what the Soviets accomplished in Afghanistan was waging an incredibly brutal war in the countryside, which killed somewhere between 500 000 and 2 million people and literally depopulating the south of the country while destroying pretty much all there was of infrastructure. They did not do much in the winning hearts and minds business or "civilizing" and rebuilding, they approached the whole thing almost exclusivley as a military problem and until they left the government they supported could barely control anything but the cities. There had been several modernizing efforts in Afghanistan, before the Soviets arrived (and they were actually often a an important supporter of that regime until they gave support to a coup against it) including in the realm of improving women's rights and education, but pretty much all of that was obliterated by 10 years of war which destroyed the country along with all that progress.
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Dec 21, 2018 09:37
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Coldwar timewarp posted:At the end of the day someone should say stop throwing good money after bad. The generals in charge talk about muddling through. It’s insane. Why not reach an accord with Assad with relation to Iranian troops. Why not reach an accord with the Taliban regarding al qaeda. I'm still not seeing the argument for having Trump unilaterally withdraw like this. Are you saying the US should withdraw because it costs too much? I could not care less about US budgetary considerations especially compared to avoiding the chaos that will happen after they leave. The difference between Afghanistan and Iraq is that after the US withdraws, especially if the Trump admin in its current state is the one to do it, you will not find a government faction to even nominally support like the US supported Baghdad against ISIS and the insurgency.
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Dec 21, 2018 09:40
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Ham posted:I'm still not seeing the argument for having Trump unilaterally withdraw like this. Are you saying the US should withdraw because it costs too much? I could not care less about US budgetary considerations especially compared to avoiding the chaos that will happen after they leave. The US should withdraw because it is a failure. It has failed. And before them the soviets tried a much more brutal strategy, which failed. Maybe diplomacy was never given a chance. But two recent examples of different methods of pacifying Afghanistan have failed, maybe leave and call it a loss or a “learning experience”. It’s about cost, not just financial. How does pursuing a failed goal forever help anyone? That anyone could support staying is insane. That leaving in a disordered way is an issue? The Taliban have waited for 17 years, they don’t have the stink of a foreign occupation army about them. Recognize defeat and deal with the facts on the ground. There is never a good time to leave. They aren’t on the ropes, and without the will to beat them they won’t be. There is never a good time to lose a war, and no matter how prepared you are for it, the actors on the ground will outpace your planning.
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Dec 21, 2018 10:31
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GreyjoyBastard posted:negotiated nothing, the glorious revolutionary republic is ten steps ahead of the imperialist pig This, but unironically, and largely because the imperialist pig decided to start walking backward by choosing a senile dotard as its commander-in-chief. Coldwar timewarp posted:What the gently caress is trying to westernize them? It wasn’t meant as a jab against them, but against the mission. It’s trying to change the culture of the rural regions with western values. The soviets tried it and it worked in the cities somewhat, not in the rural regions. Don’t be a language policeman, read. No they loving didn't. Afghanistan cities were "westernized" on their own before the Soviets came. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:because the victory condition "stick around until the people who live there get bored and go home" has proven remarkably unattainable US troops are still today hanging around in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. Also the thing with Rojava is to keep a tripwire force to defend against Turkey, not to pacify the people. And they only need to stay there as long as Turkey's administration is on an anti-Kurd genocidal agenda. Things could change. Heck, Erdogan himself used to be pro-Kurd, as surprising as it may seem nowadays.
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Dec 21, 2018 11:47
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Cat Mattress posted:Also the thing with Rojava is to keep a tripwire force to defend against Turkey, not to pacify the people. And they only need to stay there as long as Turkey's administration is on an anti-Kurd genocidal agenda. Things could change. Heck, Erdogan himself used to be pro-Kurd, as surprising as it may seem nowadays. The problem with tripwires is when you start to think they might actually be tripped, and that your interests in that area don't justify whatever might ensue. Even if Turkey didn't outright attack our outposts, they had a very long border to launch attacks of opportunity from, and US forces having to make instant decisions whether to move to stand in the way, sit in their bunkers and possibly be surrounded by Turkey and potentially hostile rebel groups, or withdraw even faster than Trump is proposing wasn't a palatable situation to face. Turkey cares far more about northern Syria than we do, and they have some degree of local superiority due to the inaccessibility of the region, so they were increasingly testing our limits to suggest our situation there was untenable. Of course with Trump it's never entirely certain that some ulterior motive isn't at play too, but with the war on ISIS winding down, the central disconnect at the heart of our Syria strategy where we were supporting a group that was a serious long term liability against bigger and more important regional interests came to a head.
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Dec 21, 2018 13:07
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Cat Mattress posted:And they only need to stay there as long as Turkey's administration is on an anti-Kurd genocidal agenda. Um...so forever?
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Dec 21, 2018 13:08
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CherryCola posted:Um...so forever? Yeah probably but even so, so what?
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Dec 21, 2018 13:10
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For what it's worth, I think the Pentagon deserves some share of the blame here too. Trump is being reckless, but he was clearly asking for an exit strategy months ago, and they more or less just ignored him and went on with what they wanted to do, including by reassuring our local partners that they didn't need to look for other options. He's a weak president, and the US government in general is too deferential to the military, so they got away with that for a while, but ultimately his attention turned back to the situation, and now the Pentagon's scrambling because they weren't planning for this to happen, and they've left people they promised support in the lurch. That said, before anyone gets the idea that Trump is a principled non-interventionist who the establishment kept tricking into wars, here are some anecdotes that make the departure of Mattis seem a bit more alarming: “He was really the only person left opposing outright war for regime change in Iran. He also held back bigger war in Syria and probably stopped Trump from bombing North Korea in 2017. He doesn’t fit in a neat box, but we are worse off without him,” said a Republican close to the Trump White House. Syria: In April 2017, Trump called Mattis about a horrific gas attack by Syrian President Bashar al-Assad on rebels. “Let’s loving kill him!” Trump said, according to the Bob Woodward book Fear. “Let’s go in. Let’s kill the loving lot of them.” Mattis, according to the book, told Trump he would get right on that plan—then hung up the phone, turned to a senior aide and said, “We’re not going to do any of that... We’re going to be much more measured.” North Korea: Sometime during the “fire and fury” summer of 2017, when President Trump and Kim Jong Un were rapidly exchanging nuclear-backed threats, Trump saw something on Fox News that prompted him to issue a potentially ominous order to the military. “It was incredibly wrongheaded, and Mattis pulled him back,” said Antony Blinken, a deputy secretary of state under the Obama administration with a reputation for sobriety. Blinken would not elaborate. But he shared the anecdote to underscore the deep sense of alarm, uncertainty, and even fear in U.S. and allied national-security circles over the departure of Defense Secretary James Mattis. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Dec 21, 2018 |
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Dec 21, 2018 13:11
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reignonyourparade posted:Yeah probably but even so, so what?
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Dec 21, 2018 16:26
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Foreverwar is bad. but my fanfic presupposes- what if it wasn't?
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Dec 21, 2018 16:32
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:but my fanfic presupposes- what if it wasn't?
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Dec 21, 2018 16:37
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This is farcical. https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1076137330979688448
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Dec 21, 2018 16:51
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Foreverwar is bad. Foreverwar is bad, but standing around as human shields is fine, even if it also lasts forever.
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Dec 21, 2018 17:17
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Shits boys purging the army gave the kurds an advantage oops
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Dec 21, 2018 17:26
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reignonyourparade posted:Foreverwar is bad, but standing around as human shields is fine, even if it also lasts forever. Plus, it did seem like the Kurds were doing a decent job of nationbuilding on their own, despite considerable geographical disadvantages. The US backing a (relatively) friendly, tolerant socialist nation under threat of genocide while the Russians got the mass-murdering Nazi-inspired dictator was severely off-brand, but it was nice while it lasted, and it's fine to mourn its downfall even if it was inevitable, and all the 'lmao what did they think would happen' posting seems unusually sociopathic even for this thread. Yeah, the US is an incredibly unreliable ally, but it was that or the Raqqa slave markets. Can't fault folks for wanting to put their subjugation and slaughter off for slightly longer.
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Dec 21, 2018 17:47
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Darth Walrus posted:Plus, it did seem like the Kurds were doing a decent job of nationbuilding on their own, despite considerable geographical disadvantages. The US backing a (relatively) friendly, tolerant socialist nation under threat of genocide while the Russians got the mass-murdering Nazi-inspired dictator was severely off-brand, but it was nice while it lasted, and it's fine to mourn its downfall even if it was inevitable, and all the 'lmao what did they think would happen' posting seems unusually sociopathic even for this thread. Yeah, the US is an incredibly unreliable ally, but it was that or the Raqqa slave markets. Can't fault folks for wanting to put their subjugation and slaughter off for slightly longer. Yeah sadly sucking on the american tit forever doesnt build nations. I hope kurds are able to withstand turkish aggression through their seasoned fighting force
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Dec 21, 2018 17:53
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Sinteres posted:This is farcical. lol, I know it's almost impossible, but I'd probably laugh my rear end off if the Kurds invaded Turkey first or some crazy poo poo like that because of this, a good offense being the best defense and all that. "Withdraw your US troops now, Mr. Trump, stop shielding dem PKK terrists." "No probs, they'll be all gone in a week." "What?! NO wait...not that quick, I meant..." *gets invaded by Kurds* "FUUUUUU"
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Dec 21, 2018 18:22
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Coalition is dumping massive supplies to kurds. 150 truckloads of supplies
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Dec 21, 2018 19:26
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LeoMarr posted:Coalition is dumping massive supplies to kurds. 150 truckloads of supplies Unless those supplies include MANPADS, good luck.
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Dec 21, 2018 19:35
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Sinteres posted:Unless those supplies include MANPADS, good luck. Oh did some of those get mixed in there? haha whoops 
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Dec 21, 2018 19:48
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LeoMarr posted:Coalition is dumping massive supplies to kurds. 150 truckloads of supplies So considerate Trump is, giving Erodogan some New Year's presents when his troops roll into Kurdish territory.
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Dec 21, 2018 19:53
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qkkl posted:So considerate Trump is, giving Erodogan some New Year's presents when his troops roll into Kurdish territory. Qkkl your takes on the middle east should start with a reding of babbys first information regurgitation WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 21, 2018 |
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Dec 21, 2018 20:11
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don't fight, you can both be terrible posters (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 21, 2018 20:18
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Coldwar timewarp posted:What the gently caress is trying to westernize them? It wasn’t meant as a jab against them, but against the mission. It’s trying to change the culture of the rural regions with western values. The soviets tried it and it worked in the cities somewhat, not in the rural regions. Don’t be a language policeman, read. *talks like a literal turn of the century British colonial colonel* Stop policing my language!!
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Dec 21, 2018 23:44
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Killary is against the drawdown. https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/...is-president-is
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Dec 22, 2018 03:33
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Throatwarbler posted:Killary is against the drawdown. Very predictable that she would agree with infamous Neoliberal intervention hawk Noam Chomsky.
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Dec 22, 2018 03:37
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https://twitter.com/attackerman/status/1076300804586393600 Seems worth pointing out that the first time Trump said he wanted to withdraw was shortly after Tillerson started talking about sticking around post-ISIS. Trump's hard kneejerk toward a total rapid withdrawal with little notice is still the least responsible way to pull back, but the neocons legitimately overplayed their hand and helped precipitate this.
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Dec 22, 2018 03:59
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It's inaccurate to describe Bolton as a neocon because the neocons had this idea of spreading big-L Liberal Democratic permanent revolution by force of arms. Bolton doesn't give a poo poo about that, he just really really loves the idea of using the military to solve every conceivable foreign relations problem. What makes Bolton dangerous is that he isn't just a dumb berserker or crank like a Gorka, he's smart and extremely skilled at wheedling his way around the NatSec bureaucracy, which is why almost everyone else in foreign relations and security policy poo poo their pants when his name started getting floated for Natsec advisor. His problem is that it's actually fairly difficult to reliably manipulate someone as dumb as Trump, a big ball of instincts that will ignore things he doesn't want to hear. https://twitter.com/LizSly/status/1076305195548721153 Surprise! Steps 1 through 12 of the Grand Trump Peace Plan for Syria involved shouting "Your problem now dude!" at Erdogan over the phone and then hanging up. Fallen Hamprince fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 04:08
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Fair points on Bolton. Anyone else half expecting Assad to seize defeat from the jaws of victory by gassing some more kids and pissing off Trump again now that he thinks the US isn't his problem anymore? Putin should be making it extremely clear to him that the regime is secure enough for him to personally be expendable if he even thinks about it.
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Dec 22, 2018 04:21
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Fallen Hamprince posted:It's inaccurate to describe Bolton as a neocon because the neocons had this idea of spreading big-L Liberal Democratic permanent revolution by force of arms. Bolton doesn't give a poo poo about that, he just really really loves the idea of using the military to solve every conceivable foreign relations problem. What does he care about then? I don't really know much about Bolton honestly. What is his political philosophy, like what problems does he believe need to be solved? Is he some kind of really belligerent realist?
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Dec 22, 2018 04:42
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Fallen Hamprince posted:Surprise! Steps 1 through 12 of the Grand Trump Peace Plan for Syria involved shouting "Your problem now dude!" at Erdogan over the phone and then hanging up.
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Dec 22, 2018 04:55
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Squalid posted:What does he care about then? I don't really know much about Bolton honestly. What is his political philosophy, like what problems does he believe need to be solved? Is he some kind of really belligerent realist? That seems to be the assessment of non-Trumpy natsec people. Kissenger-style realpolitic except instead of diplomacy being a tool to contain conflicts and come to mutually beneficial agreements between major powers it's a formality before war can begin and the issue can be settled unilaterally. Basically, Bolton believes that the DC establishment greatly under-values military force as a foreign policy tool, and that the US wastes too much time negotiating with its enemies when it could be dictating terms of surrender to them.
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Dec 22, 2018 05:04
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Huh. https://twitter.com/_alhamra/status/990043507627905024
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Dec 22, 2018 06:55
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https://twitter.com/Elizrael/status/1076126206746079232 Right in front of the ruins of the Omari mosque, which protesters used as a shelter and makeshift hospital for nearly a month after the protests kicked off. They were driven out in one of the first real military operations against the protests, when the military raided the complex, supported by tanks. Hundreds were killed by the military in the following days, but nearly 8 years later, the protests continue.
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Dec 22, 2018 07:46
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm not arguing we should stay. I'm arguing that Trump will gently caress up our exit in a way that will make things even worse. It's not hard to understand. He's going to cut down on deployed troops and publicly call it a full withdrawal.
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Dec 22, 2018 09:15
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Conspiratiorist posted:He's going to cut down on deployed troops and publicly call it a full withdrawal. Special Forces are usually the people who stay behind when we "leave the country" like that and by all reports they're leaving too, and are pretty pissed about it. Plus, this is Trump we're talking about. I don't think he's smart enough to do that, and even if he was he's doing it it's because he's buttmad and is taking his ball and going home.
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Dec 22, 2018 10:20
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Sinteres posted:Fair points on Bolton. Aleady predicted it in the UsPol thread. Decapitating the government as we're on our way out with no care as to what follows is quintessential Trump.
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Dec 22, 2018 10:34
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sleep with the vicious posted:Well, here's 16 kids who would be alive if we had pulled out a month ago? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/afghanistan-civilians-killed-us-air-strike-helmand-province The United States has spent billions building infrastructure in Afghanistan. https://www.usaid.gov/afghanistan/infrastructure
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Dec 22, 2018 16:37
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SimonCat posted:The United States has spent billions building infrastructure in Afghanistan. Well, the United States is playing the game of empires with the Infinite Money cheat code activated, so it doesn't really count. Just a few more billion to the debt pile that will never be repaid.
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Dec 22, 2018 16:44
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Freezer posted:Well, the United States is playing the game of empires with the Infinite Money cheat code activated, so it doesn't really count. Just a few more billion to the debt pile that will never be repaid. I'm no in a position to judge if it's been worthwhile, but to say that the US hasn't tried to build some infrastructure is inaccurate. I really don't know what a successful plan would be short of instituting the type of direct colonial rule the US is accused of doing. I'm not advocating for that, I've seen first hand that we're not accomplishing much in Afghanistan against the Taliban, but I don't think that trying to run the country through proxies works.
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Dec 22, 2018 16:49
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