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As cool as the mutated navigator in the film is, I'm pretty sure the navigator Edric (?) in the second book is pretty much human looking, maybe elongated like Belters are in the Expanse, but I think it's more a zero G thing than a spice thing. The Guild has its own mental training, like Mentats and the Bene Gesserit. It's speculated in the first book to involve pure mathematics. And the prescience they need comes from the spice itself.
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Dec 21, 2018 15:24
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In Messiah edric's deformities can't be concealed but since nobody knows what navigators look like outside of the guild and maybe a handful of royals they are mistaken for regular deformities no?
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Dec 21, 2018 15:26
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I think it's more that no one sees them because they never leave space. Edric has gills, for fucks sake. Their metamorphosis occurs under the effect of the - life extending - spice in the artificial gravity of their space ships (IIRC navigators are usually in the core or center of their ships). The reasons nobody knows what they look like are A) They seldom travel planetside and B) the prescient themselves cannot "see" them. The only reason that Edric had a special conveyance to move around on terra firma was because of his supervisory role in the scheme.
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Dec 21, 2018 19:41
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Speaking of Navigators and Guild ships, and the general lack of Dune fanart: I'm in the planning phase on a series of images, or potentially a short CG film, based on the Atreides move from Caladan to Arrakis. The focus will be space scenes - the planets and the ships. I'm redesigning all the ships, so nothing will look like it does in either the Lynch film or the miniseries. I'm aiming for semi-plausible retro-future designs, and I don't want to contradict anything laid out in the original novel. So the Atreides frigates have to at least look like they can survive atmospheric reentry, and stand on end for launch / landing. To me that suggests a generally tapering delta shape, and my current thoughts are towards something like stone hand axes or arrowheads for their overall form. The Guild ship design is much more open ended - we're told almost nothing about them, except that they're big. They don't enter atmosphere, so there's no aerodynamic considerations. Dune was written before containerization of shipping was widespread, so I don't want to reference modern cargo ship designs. I'm leaning towards something like an empty nautilus shell: you've got a big gaping "mouth" for the comparatively tiny frigates to fly in to, the mathematical/temporal connotations of the fractal spiral, the series of chambers walling off increasingly secret spaces/cargoes toward the core, a faceless/anonymous/alien feel, with no obvious front or top or or bridge. Also maybe the idea that the ship grows over time, adding chambers to accommodate more cargo over decades or millennia. Possibly every guild ship is unique, and built around different mathematical principles. All they really need is internal volume. Feedback welcome. Anyone else got ideas for what this stuff should look/feel like?
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Dec 22, 2018 01:41
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That sounds awesome, and as an archaeologist I dig the handaxe idea.
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Dec 22, 2018 01:44
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Dec 22, 2018 01:59
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I hear thumpers echoing tonight as Fremen call the makers from the desert to our location shai hulud coming in, we ride tonight the stormwinds drive us forward into the war, and our salvation i spoke to Stilgar along the way hoping for his blessings, or perhaps, some word of Chani He turned to me as if to say Muad dib, she's waiting there for you it'll take a lot to drag me away from you That's nothing that the Harkonnen or Sardaukar could ever do I dream of rains back on Caladan gonna take some time to turn this desert in to paradise Fedaykin call out in the night my name upon their lips a killing word to an ancient enemy I know that we will win this fight, blast through the shield wall,then take Arrakeen, and soon the galaxy I see the future path I stride yet frightened of the thing I must become it'll take a lot to drag me away from you that's nothing that the Harkonnen or Sardaukar could ever do I dream of rains back on Caladan gonna take some time to turn this desert into paradise
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Dec 22, 2018 02:02
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LoudPipesSaveLives posted:it'll take a lot to drag me away from you 
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Dec 22, 2018 03:04
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Vlex posted:That sounds awesome, and as an archaeologist I dig the handaxe idea. Thanks! Any chance you can tell me what the odds of this handaxe I bought in early 2016 (for $235) from fossilshack.com being a modern fake are? I don't have any reason to suspect that it is, and I've only read good things on the internet about the seller (seems to be a mostly one man operation). I just know there are fakes out there, and I've been meaning to ask somebody about it. Here's the current version of the page I bought from, obviously the stock is different, but back then it was also just 10 or so pieces for sale. https://www.fossilshack.com/store/c12/axes I'm not a collector or anything, I just read in a novel that it was possible to buy ancient tools and it sounded like the coolest thing (it is, I ditched the frame and keep it on my desk). It's the only thing like this I own.   The color is a more uniform and deeper red that it looks like in the pictures. X,X00,000 years old or not, this is one of my design inspirations. And it (supposedly) came from the desert! John Harris owns. The massive scale, the stark 60s/70s designs, the clouds/fog/haze that obscure just enough to keep you wondering... He'd be perfect for Villeneuve's films, I hope they reach out to him. But yeah, that's definitely the direction I'm hoping to go in too.
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Dec 22, 2018 03:05
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIzTat3OD3w&t=327s
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Dec 22, 2018 03:14
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Finished Dune, loved it the whole way through, but I've watched the movie multiple times before reading the book so my expectations naturally were a little skewed with what the book would be like, looking forward to Messiah and the new movie. One question about the ending, did I completely gloss over the explanation why the Emperor favoured the Harkonnens and helped them wipe out the Atreides? I was expecting it to come out like the movie the guild wanted Paul dead but there was no mention of the guild wanting Paul dead, Alia was funny as hell. e; Frank Herbert really did love his ecology and made me think more positively of the desert than I thought I ever would.And another thing, Dune didn't really explain how the Bene Gesserit are able to have as much influence as they do, they aren't a religion or a company, how are they able to get even the Emperor to wed one of them? What actual service do they provide to people as a whole? Tarantula fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 09:34
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Tarantula posted:Finished Dune, loved it the whole way through, but I've watched the movie multiple times before reading the book so my expectations naturally were a little skewed with what the book would be like, looking forward to Messiah and the new movie. One question about the ending, did I completely gloss over the explanation why the Emperor favoured the Harkonnens and helped them wipe out the Atreides? I was expecting it to come out like the movie the guild wanted Paul dead but there was no mention of the guild wanting Paul dead, Alia was funny as hell. Re the Bene Gesserit Frank Herbert rarely gives pure descriptions of the origins of stuff in a meticulous way like some fantasy universes, its left to the reader and you can become lost in the extended (bullshit) universe but if i recall correctly its mentioned as cannon (sp?) that the Bene Gesserit were formed to control politics/history basically and the Bene Tleilax to control religion? Something like that. The orders begin after the rarely mentioned apocalyptic thinking machine event.
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Dec 22, 2018 10:00
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phasmid posted:The only reason that Edric had a special conveyance to move around on terra firma was because of his supervisory role in the scheme. lol Edric was a scrub. He didn't even study ontology. Testikles posted:Make sure they're not over done! I'm rolling my eyes in horror over here
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Dec 22, 2018 10:27
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Tarantula posted:Finished Dune, loved it the whole way through, but I've watched the movie multiple times before reading the book so my expectations naturally were a little skewed with what the book would be like, looking forward to Messiah and the new movie. One question about the ending, did I completely gloss over the explanation why the Emperor favoured the Harkonnens and helped them wipe out the Atreides? I was expecting it to come out like the movie the guild wanted Paul dead but there was no mention of the guild wanting Paul dead, Alia was funny as hell. Ever play Crusader Kings? Ever spend ages looking for the perfect wife that will be able to perform an advisory role while also giving good traits to your offspring? Imagine if you could give the BG a call and find an attractive talented wife with good traits. And they ask for nothing in return. They exist only to serve. Remember that almost nobody knows the prana-bindu abilities of the Sisterhood. Thufir Hawat, a Universally respected Mentat, with the resources of a House Major behind him, is surprised by one of the most basic abilities of Jessica. Things like fetal selection and near-perfect musculature-nervature control would blow his mind. The Sisterhood treat the serfdom well, so the common man has a good opinion of them. The Emperor came to power when his father had his food poisoned. It was strongly suspected by those in the know that Count Fenring did it at the behest of Shaddam. The BG maneuvered in the wake of the scandal to marry a sister of their choice in return for political support in a time of regime change, which is a very sensitive time. Just ask the Roman emperors during the 3rd century. The sisterhoods plan was to have one of the princesses marry the son of Feyd-Rautha and the daughter of Jessica. That would put the Kwizach Haderach on the Throne. Boom, BG victory.
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Dec 23, 2018 01:35
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A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:lol Edric was a scrub. He didn't even study ontology. Other great dune moments: when Odrade spaces out eating a sandwich
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Dec 23, 2018 01:49
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exmachina posted:Ever play Crusader Kings? Ever spend ages looking for the perfect wife that will be able to perform an advisory role while also giving good traits to your offspring? Imagine if you could give the BG a call and find an attractive talented wife with good traits. And they ask for nothing in return. They exist only to serve. The whole KH thing is much more interesting in the book - Count Fenring is very explicitly noted as being almost a KH and Feyd's bits are supposed to echo Paul's arc, from memory. Millenia long selective breeding programs probably don't make great watching though.
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Dec 23, 2018 02:17
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Prolonged Priapism posted:
I loving love the nautilus idea. It would start small and just keep growing as time went on, allowing access to deeper levels based on more and more selective criteria. Maybe one 3rd stage navigator = one ship, they each aggregate/ form their own ship. Any two always look different, just as no two people are alike.
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Dec 23, 2018 02:21
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Seaside Loafer posted:RE the Bene Gesserit Frank Herbert rarely gives pure descriptions of the origins of stuff in a meticulous way like some fantasy universes, its left to the reader and you can become lost in the extended (bullshit) universe but if i recall correctly its mentioned as cannon (sp?) that the Bene Gesserit were formed to control politics/history basically and the Bene Tleilax to control religion? Something like that. The orders begin after the rarely mentioned apocalyptic thinking machine event. There’s quite a bit on the BG in the Encyclopedia, less but still some on the BT. About the Benefit Gesserit: Assuming the Encyclopedia is taken as canon, the BG date back to prehistorical ancient Terra. All mankind once shared a group consciousness, but at some point men began to lose this. The number of women able to share this began to decrease and from this early desire to restore group memory and consciousness was born the breeding program. I’m not enough of a historian to say for sure what specific historical events the Encyclopedia references, although Alexander the Great may come up within there. While their political capital waxed and waned through the ages, their unity of purpose paired with the unparalleled expanse of their influence (itself bolstered by the Missionara Protectiva) gave them a persistent leverage that eventually elevated them to the level of close counsel to Emperors and even at time kingmakers. About the Bene Tleilax The Bene Tleilax also predated the Jihad. They were just found one day out in space but since their discovery had always enforced a strict wall of secrecy. As the Encyclopedia is written as an in-universe document, specifics about their origins are lacking. Their continued influence is primarily based upon the unique services and products they offered. Unfortunately, the Encyclopedia was published prior to Heretics and Chapterhouse. If memory serves, there’s one point at which Odrade talks faith with Scytale. She is able to unsettle him pretty significantly and cut to the core of his beliefs. Assuming that female tleilaxu are nothing but tanks and serve no other role, it’s likely been tens of thousands of years since any vestiges of the Missionaria had any effect on the Tleilax. But it’s still an interesting question of how much of that influence may be still be present.
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Dec 23, 2018 02:41
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Uncle Enzo posted:I loving love the nautilus idea. It would start small and just keep growing as time went on, allowing access to deeper levels based on more and more selective criteria. Maybe one 3rd stage navigator = one ship, they each aggregate/ form their own ship. Any two always look different, just as no two people are alike. That's totally it, imo. More than one nav per ship would be a waste. They're busy exploring the universe (and besides, can you imagine two navigators sharing close quarters and arguing for even a small amount of time?) The nautilus is a cool as hell touch. I love that the fandom some books engender outdo even dynamic thinkers like Jodo and Lynch. It signifies the power of the content.
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Dec 23, 2018 03:22
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Also gonna say book 3 is really good and if you don't like it then just read the first couple pages again, I dare ya.
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Dec 23, 2018 03:24
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Ratatozsk posted:
I don't think the MP was the reason she got him. The BT are descended from Sufism, a form of Islamic mysticism comparable to Gnostic Christianity. Her knowledge of the roots of their religion and experience with doctrinal debate is what gives her the edge. BT memories only go back to Muad'dib.
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Dec 23, 2018 04:42
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exmachina posted:I don't think the MP was the reason she got him. The BT are descended from Sufism, a form of Islamic mysticism comparable to Gnostic Christianity. Her knowledge of the roots of their religion and experience with doctrinal debate is what gives her the edge. BT memories only go back to Muad'dib. So more of just being a diplomat working at the top of her game and reading Scytale like a book. That makes sense. I think the mysteries around the history and secrets of the Tleilax are among the top reasons I personally regret the lack of a true book 7. Not that an answer would be guaranteed from Herbert, but still...
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Dec 23, 2018 05:24
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Ratatozsk posted:So more of just being a diplomat working at the top of her game and reading Scytale like a book. That makes sense. Remember the big breakthrough was when Taraza realised this fact in the first place. Odrade's attack was one that had been hashed out in council for weeks? months? Heretic's timeline is hard to judge.
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Dec 23, 2018 05:29
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A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Wait till you start putting it in your oyster stew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JH28BCGb4s I have a theory that each of the various Stooges is a different stage of Guild Navigator evolution. I'm just not sure what order they're in.
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Dec 23, 2018 05:35
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Ratatozsk posted:So more of just being a diplomat working at the top of her game and reading Scytale like a book. That makes sense. I'm on a up a reread of the series and just finishing up book 4. Letwo drops hints about without me there would have been no more humans at all by now and those details about seeking machines hunting down humans, most especially during Siona's test in the desert. I'm really sad we didn't get a Book 7 too, because I'd bet it'd elaborate on that and on Daniel and Marty and, rereading everything now, I love the delicacy of his plots and the subtlety of his descriptions and I bet Frank's answers to those things would have been so much cooler and more compelling that LORD CYBERTREX 
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Dec 23, 2018 11:52
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exmachina posted:Ever play Crusader Kings? Ever spend ages looking for the perfect wife that will be able to perform an advisory role while also giving good traits to your offspring? Imagine if you could give the BG a call and find an attractive talented wife with good traits. And they ask for nothing in return. They exist only to serve. There's a Dune boardgame, long out of print, where you all play different factions, Atreides, Saudaker, Fremen, etc. Everyone has different win conditions, most of which I don't know, but the Bene Gesserits win condition I've always thought was super clever. At the start of the game, the BG player picks another faction and writes down the turn on which they think they will win. If that faction wins on that turn, then the Bene Gesserit win instead.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:21
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exmachina posted:
I play the Avalon Hill board game of Dune once or twice a year with my friends and there is always a fairly big to-do made about one of the BG's secret win conditions which is predicting a specific victor on a specific turn, which in turn is victory by strategy for BG. The Sisterhood is loving awesome.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:23
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Worst possible Dune soundtrack, go. Comedy option: The Transformers: The Movie soundtrack.
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Dec 24, 2018 02:44
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I did not realize this thread turned a year old this month lol congrats everyone
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Dec 24, 2018 03:04
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Worst possible Dune soundtrack, go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w5ZHMwIzvY
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Dec 24, 2018 03:07
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My favorite part of the later books are the sligs. They're creatures made by the tleilaxu that taste delicious (implied, like pigs) and can eat almost anything, but sadly, are hideous, limbless, and slime-covered (implied, like slugs). Everyone apparently just shrugs their shoulders and says, well, it's a shame, that's life, you can't have it all, there must be some biological reason for the slime, we just try not to think about it. Turns out, the tleilaxu made a super-swine on purpose: something even better-tasting and even more disgusting than the famously unclean animal to trick everyone else into not only poisoning the purity of their body, but also to spiritually debase themselves by growing accustomed to compromising their integrity for hedonism. Just that, by itself, completely re-explained everything the bene tleilax did in the first books. They're mostly on the margins, but you get the impression they're peddlers of flesh in the old sense, with the uncomplicated mercantile philosophy of the maitre d' and the drug dealer, of giving the people what they want. But no, plots within plots.
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Dec 24, 2018 03:41
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basic hitler posted:I did not realize this thread turned a year old this month lol d u n e
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Dec 24, 2018 11:31
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basic hitler posted:I did not realize this thread turned a year old this month lol Thread, Voted 5 Planet
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Dec 24, 2018 12:53
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Gonna have to go out and buy my fifth copy of Dune to celebrate. I have to stop lending that book to people, I never get it back.
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Dec 24, 2018 13:20
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Now theres gotta be some dune themed christmas songs surely. Shai-hulud night. Im dreaming of a Green Arrakis. Deck the halls with Hunter-Seekers. And so on
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Dec 24, 2018 13:40
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basic hitler posted:I did not realize this thread turned a year old this month lol
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Dec 24, 2018 13:50
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Good King Wensicia Little Thumper Boy All I Want for Christmas is Dune “God bless us, sietch and everyone!”
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Dec 24, 2018 15:11
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Merry Crysknife!
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Dec 24, 2018 16:02
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Nessus posted:Long live the posters
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Dec 24, 2018 16:07
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Felis Navidad, but with Kwisatz Haderach.
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Dec 24, 2018 16:18
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