|
I found this trilogy really frustrating to read. First had promise, the second two I count as essentially a complete waste of time. I downloaded a fan-made pdf containing a summary of the remaining plot. What a complete mess, and it doesn't even seem to end properly after 7 too-long books. What a mess. Truly astounding. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Dec 12, 2018 |
#
?
Dec 12, 2018 05:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 01:34 |
|
|
Amethyst posted:I found this trilogy really frustrating to read. First had promise, the second two I count as essentially a complete waste of time. Books 2 and 6 have the most Saubon /Proyas and are thus the best in the series.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 01:03
|
|
|
Saubon kept getting referred to throughout the books as if I was supposed to care but I barely had an impression of the guy besides being a zealot.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 01:12
|
|
|
He's emphatically not a zealot. He's the perpetual little brother, constantly asking for attention and recognition, even though by being so transparently grasping he just looks desperate. Also his last stand against the sranc while atop a two thousand year old nuke is  as gently caressEdit: Double also, his "best friend" uses his dying words to dunk on him and call him a douche.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
Which one was the guy Kellhus gave a prophecy that he'd take the walls of a city, who then became loyal to kellhus as a result? I thought that was Saubon. Man Kellhus' rise was so boring to read. God I hated these books
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 01:27
|
|
|
Lunchmeat Larry posted:I am so glad I tapped out at the judging eye this sounds hilarious. He was just possesses by Satan all along? Imagine reading like 3500 pages and still not understanding the main protagonist's basic motives. The Bakker Experience. EDIT: Ok reading through this thread a bit more it's clear that he's just a sadist. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Dec 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 01:51
|
|
|
Amethyst posted:I found this trilogy really frustrating to read. First had promise, the second two I count as essentially a complete waste of time. Out of curiosity, what was it you found interesting about the first book but not the sequels?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 10:05
|
|
|
Amethyst posted:Imagine reading like 3500 pages and still not understanding the main protagonist's basic motives. The Bakker Experience. A sadist at least derives some pleasure from hurting others. Kellhus is just a hollow godmode shitlord. Even when banging two of the hottest women in the setting he was just going to a dull gray place in his mind and meditating about the right alleles his offspring might have. If Prince of Nothing was a modern fantasy, he'd be a 'rational' youtuber with an avatar wearing a suit, and his videos would alternated between pickup-artistry and cultish ethnic panic. Holy poo poo, he'd be Stefan Molyneaux.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 18:52
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:A sadist at least derives some pleasure from hurting others. Kellhus is just a hollow godmode shitlord. Even when banging two of the hottest women in the setting he was just going to a dull gray place in his mind and meditating about the right alleles his offspring might have. I don't remember him loving the Emperor's mom.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 19:33
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:Books 2 and 6 have the most Saubon /Proyas and are thus the best in the series. Yup. Proyas ended up becoming the emergent favorite of mine in the Great Ordeal. When, er, THAT happened in Book 7, I rage quit. I have NEVER rage quit a book until The Unholy Consult. >  Proyas was the zealot who was, welp, broken of it. Saubon was never a believer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 20:54
|
|
|
Pleiades posted:Yup. Proyas ended up becoming the emergent favorite of mine in the Great Ordeal. When, er, THAT happened in Book 7, I rage quit. I have NEVER rage quit a book until The Unholy Consult. > Early Proyas is still pretty good. He knows right from wrong, and feels it so intensely, but he's straitjacketed by what he's been told is right or wrong and it drives him completely insane. Up until his sobbing hug when Akka comes back I was expecting him to Javert off the nearest bridge. I think Bakker is legit really good at having a group of characters all having different emotional and philosophical drives and reacting to events in different ways. Judging Eye and White Luck warrior really suffer for reducing their cast and spreading them around too much.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2018 22:01
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:A sadist at least derives some pleasure from hurting others. Kellhus is just a hollow godmode shitlord. Even when banging two of the hottest women in the setting he was just going to a dull gray place in his mind and meditating about the right alleles his offspring might have. Sorry for being unclear, I was referring to Bakker as the sadist. Your post is still right though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
I regret reading the second trilogy
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 00:21
|
|
|
Crimpolioni posted:Out of curiosity, what was it you found interesting about the first book but not the sequels? The flaws are definitely present in the first book too, I guess I figured the plot would move forward, driving the characters into interesting territory. The plot moved at a snails pace and characters kept retreading the same ground over and over and over again.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 00:32
|
|
|
Crimpolioni posted:Out of curiosity, what was it you found interesting about the first book but not the sequels? There are some strong hooks in the first book that sadly never get in gear once the "Kellhush just wins, always" gist of the series kicks in fully. The cast is a great mix: a soft-hearted sorcerer, a half-mad, obsessed barbarian, a military genius heir of a dwindling Byzantium analogue, a smart prostitute seeing momentous events taking place around herself and trying to square that with her own minor existence. It's a fun collection of points of view to attack a story from. Then Conphas just becomes Commander Cobra serially foiled by wily Kellhus, Esmenet becomes a walking womb, Achamian basically one of those minor characters in Dragon Ball Z that exist to give Goku a Power Level boost while moaning about everything, and everyone else either dies a cruel death to boost the setting's grimdark cred, or becomes a mindwashed slave. Except for Cnaiur, who just becomes -infintely- pointless. His return may be the worst dud of a plotline I've ever seen in any literature. It's as if at the end of Lord of the Rings, Gollum appeared at the door to Mount Doom when Frodo becomes taken with the Ring, but just takes a dump on the floor and leaves the hobbits to their fates.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 00:51
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:There are some strong hooks in the first book that sadly never get in gear once the "Kellhush just wins, always" gist of the series kicks in fully. That would have been a great ending.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 00:53
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:
lol. This is a good summation.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 01:02
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:Early Proyas is still pretty good. He knows right from wrong, and feels it so intensely, but he's straitjacketed by what he's been told is right or wrong and it drives him completely insane. Up until his sobbing hug when Akka comes back I was expecting him to Javert off the nearest bridge. He certainly is. I always liked him, but the for longest time, Achamian was the favorite. I tend to be a sucker for passionate characters. I liked Proyas the moment Achamian first sees him again. Hell, I think I liked him the moment I saw his name. I also think he's quite similar to Cnaiur, only more humane. "I think Bakker is legit really good at having a group of characters all having different emotional and philosophical drives and reacting to events in different ways. Judging Eye and White Luck warrior really suffer for reducing their cast and spreading them around too much." Very true. Conphas got shafted big time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 04:02
|
|
|
I barely got an idea of who Proyas even is, to be honest. He seemed like a pretty generic nervous princeling until he fell under Kellhus' spell then he became just another lovely zombie.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 04:16
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:a smart prostitute seeing momentous events taking place around herself and trying to square that with her own minor existence. I really like his portrayal of Esme. He nicely balances how she's naturally extremely intelligent, but woefully uneducated, so she's not immediately jumping around like a super-genius (unlike, say, Mistborn, where a street-urchin invents the idea of statistical significance). Her feelings about prostitution are messy and contradictory in a way that feels very genuine and human - sometimes it's degrading misery, but sometimes she finds a very real escape in the stories she extracts from her clients. I even think her rape and her subsequent reaction to it is really well done - as much as everyone fixates on the black demon seed the scene is completely empty of titilation or glamourised sexual violence, instead it's all about the violation (both physical and mental) and while it's a major part of her story for the first book and a half she's never treated solely as a victim. It's a sensitivity I didn't expect in a fantasy novel, least of all one so grimdark. Esme's whole arc is why I'm able to slog through all the rest of the rape-demon-cannibal-goblins stuff. It shows that Bakker has an actual understanding of sexual violence and misogyny, and trying to explore what that means or use it provoke a visceral response from his male readers. I'm not willing to dismiss it as just gratuitous misogyny, even if I think it's gross and weird and horribly mis-judged.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
Yup. Plus, there's the fact that a lot of the choices she makes are mostly based how things simply WERE("we must act according to the ages") and that even when she was "raised up", she was still fairly powerless and she knew it. :/ Problem is that she got boring after awhile.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 18:27
|
|
|
She could've been Ching Shih if Bakker wanted — the historical precedent for 'prostitute becomes massive power player' is there. He just wasn't interested in writing Esmenet as capable or agentic. Should've had her hold Kellhus' empire together (against his predictions, or at least longer than predicted) and set her up as a power player in the Thing That Happens Next, if it ever gets written. Then her entire storyline in the last four books wouldn't be a huge waste of time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:I really like his portrayal of Esme. He nicely balances how she's naturally extremely intelligent, but woefully uneducated, so she's not immediately jumping around like a super-genius (unlike, say, Mistborn, where a street-urchin invents the idea of statistical significance). Her feelings about prostitution are messy and contradictory in a way that feels very genuine and human - sometimes it's degrading misery, but sometimes she finds a very real escape in the stories she extracts from her clients. I even think her rape and her subsequent reaction to it is really well done - as much as everyone fixates on the black demon seed the scene is completely empty of titilation or glamourised sexual violence, instead it's all about the violation (both physical and mental) and while it's a major part of her story for the first book and a half she's never treated solely as a victim. It's a sensitivity I didn't expect in a fantasy novel, least of all one so grimdark. Very much so. You do get a sense that she is desperately trying to extract some meaning from her clients, and her relationships with Akka as well as the others, and every time he leaves or she is reduced back to her daily drudgery it feels like she dies a little. I do find the 'black seed' episode weird and needless, because it does feel eroticized (Lots of emphasis on how absurdly good it feels, and then there's the graphic moneyshot), and because nothing really comes of it. I'm not even sure she tell Achamian of it, and if she does it is 100% eclipsed by his discovery of the skin-spies and Kellhus being an Anansurimbor. For all the plot difference it made, it could have been a customer in a fursuit that grosses her out and makes her quit. But as had been said here, pretty much all of that falls by the wayside the moment characters enter into Kellhus' orbit and lose all agency. It's a weird series in where discovery and awareness never really amount to much. Empress Esmenet might as well have been as oblivious as Serwe and the effect on the plot would have been exactly the same*; Momemn destroyed and her kids crazy and/or dead. Achamian could have spent the rest of his life in his old tower busting loads against the wall and playing Minecraft, sparing himself the slof of slogs, dueling with dragons, and finding the Dunyan stronghold, and the outcome would have been -exactly- the same. *: Well, I guess she was nice enough that it made Kellhus come back for her and her psycho child during his weird, unexplained "Hey, I kinda feel things now, must be someone I ate" phase. Which leads to the kidlet being there at the close and mucking things up. So, um....meaning?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 18:51
|
|
|
God that would've been great. The only good part of her plot in Aspect Emperor is when she and Maithy have a chat about how the empire can fall and none of it matters to the great ordeal. The feeling of insignificance is wonderful, almost Lovecraftian. And that's a page and a half, tops.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 18:53
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:God that would've been great. The only good part of her plot in Aspect Emperor is when she and Maithy have a chat about how the empire can fall and none of it matters to the great ordeal. The feeling of insignificance is wonderful, almost Lovecraftian. Lovecraft had the decency not to stretch the insignificance across six freaking tomes, the sweet, freaky bigoted darling. Or involve Chosen One prophecies into the narrative, something I'm sick unto death of, be it played straight, subverted, whatever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 19:04
|
|
|
quote:set her up as a power player in the Thing That Happens Next, if it ever gets written. That might still happen though as Sumna is still around and she did say that she had forces there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2018 19:22
|
|
|
Has Bakker mentioned anything about the next book?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2018 12:14
|
|
|
From what I've heard, he's currently doing a lot of vignettes for the next book.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2018 21:28
|
|
|
What next book? According to the last one, everyone died. I honestly thought Bakker was done with this poo poo now. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2018 21:35
|
|
|
He's openly stated he has no plan for where to take the narrative as this was supposed to end here, and apparently no publisher anymore either. I wouldn't hold your breath for another trilogy within a decade.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2018 21:57
|
|
|
Gee, I can't imagine why no publisher will touch this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2018 21:58
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:Gee, I can't imagine why no publisher will touch this poo poo. Isn't it because the books are guaranteed to not have Proyas and Saubon in?
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 00:37
|
|
|
I miss Conphas most of all to be honest.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 00:45
|
|
|
A better question would be: Who the gently caress wants another book from Bakker?
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 01:18
|
|
|
I'm nursing a semi waiting for neuropath 2
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 01:27
|
|
|
Rime posted:A better question would be: Who the gently caress wants another book from Bakker? Are you saying you don't -want- to read about how Achamian and Mimara's pointless little newborn was raped and eaten by dog-monsters? Inquiring minds want to know!
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 01:32
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:Are you saying you don't -want- to read about how Achamian and Mimara's pointless little newborn was raped and eaten by dog-monsters? But who rapes the dog-monsters?
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 01:34
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:But who rapes the dog-monsters? That's the deep philosophical matters that require reading all six books, plust some of Bakker's interviews to fully realize. Can one really rape the utterly ammoral? Do gods like Ajokli and the Mother of Birth clash over issues like rape? Which step of the Thousandfold Thought is rape? Just kidding. It's other, slightly larger dog mosnters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 04:45
|
|
|
Rime posted:A better question would be: Who the gently caress wants another book from Bakker? I would like to see what wild ride he would spin out of this. I enjoyed reading the series a lot because of the absurdities.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 06:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 01:34 |
|
|
Sephyr posted:That's the deep philosophical matter Isn't this entire series written around Bakker realizing the Christian God can be mean? Because there's a ton of literature written for that that doesn't involve black demon jizz.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2018 06:55
|
|